Senate Standing Committee on Rules
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay we're going to go ahead and get started. And to the public, thank you for your patience. It's been a busy week and a busy day. So just to give you a heads up, we've got Members coming and going between three committees today. So we're going to go ahead and get started. And if you see a couple of Members leaving, just know that we've got Health Committee, Labor Committee, and I think one other Committee going on in addition to this one. So that would be the reason.
- Toni Atkins
Person
So our Senate Committee on rules will come to order. Good afternoon. We continue to welcome the public in person. And via our teleconference service, we're holding our Committee hearing in the O Street building in room 2200. And for individuals that wish to provide public comment via the teleconference service, the participant toll free number and access code are posted on our Committee website and will be displayed on the screen.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Today's participant number is 877-226-8163 and the access code is 694-8930 for our court reporter on behalf of Ina, let me ask all speakers, colleagues, witnesses alike to speak slowly and clearly before we begin today's agenda, we should establish a quorum, especially since we have one. A reminder, colleagues, you'll need to turn on your microphones for roll call in every time that we vote. Madam Secretary, will you please call our role.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Laird, Here. Ochoa-Bogh. Smallwood-Cuevas. Grove, Here. Atkins, Here.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. Thank you. And to my colleagues coming in, we've already let the public know you're running between multiple committees, so let me go ahead and start. We have two conference today, but let me go ahead and start. And for the record, we now have Senator Ochoa Bogh and Senator Smallwood-Cuevas. And we will start with item two, Bill referrals and see if I can get a motion. Thank you, Madam Vice Chair. Madam Secretary, will you call the roll?
- Committee Secretary
Person
Laird, aye. Ochoa-Bogh, aye. Smallwood-Cuevas, aye. Grove, aye. Atkins, aye 5-0.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Five to zero. Thank you. Item three, Subcommitee ratifications. And. Thank you, Madam Vice Chair. Madam Secretary, we. Please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Laird, aye. Ochoa-Bogh, aye. Smallwood-Cuevas, aye. Grove, aye. Atkins, aye 5-0.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Five to zero. Thank you so much. We have item number four, item four, which is a floor acknowledgment. This could be a long day. Motion, please. Thank you. Madam Vice Chair, will you call the role Madam Secretary?
- Committee Secretary
Person
Laird, aye. Ochoa-Bogh, aye. Smallwood-Cuevas, aye. Grove, aye. Atkins, aye 5-0.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Five to zero. Thank you. And now that all of my colleagues are here, just to let them know, I did inform the public that there's at least three committees going on right now and that people may be coming and going, but we will give our full attention when we're here and get right into questions and comments. And with that, I'm going to invite up our first appointee required to appear, and that would be secretary, Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, and that would be Jeffrey McComber.
- Toni Atkins
Person
And welcome. And as you're getting set up there, I will just invite you to make some opening comments. Acknowledge anyone that you would like, that's either with you or at home watching, and get right into opening comments, and then we'll come back up here for questions and comments. Welcome.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Great. Thank you. Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Members of the Committee. I would like to recognize and thank my family. My wife is here today, sitting over in the corner. She took the day off as she is a reading intervention specialist at one of our local public school districts. And I have numerous Members of my CDCR family here, too many to name, that have joined me as well. So I'm very appreciative of them making it out today.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
I began my career in CDCR as a student assistant over 30 years ago. Since that time, I've held numerous positions throughout the Department, working in custody, administrative, and healthcare capacities. I thank the Governor for appointing me to now lead the Department, particularly at a time when we are on the cusp of significant change. The Department today is unrecognizable when compared to the one I began working for in 1992.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Since that time, we have reshaped our approach to corrections to vastly expand opportunities to provide rehabilitation as part of our mission. It is a critical component of our role in promoting public safety within California and preparing the incarcerated population for successful reintegration into the community.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Throughout my tenure, I have been fortunate to be part of several major departmental initiatives, including the expansion of volunteer selfhelp programs within the institutions, restricted housing reforms for the mental health population, and overseeing the expansion of college and reentry programs, as well as working to enhance wellness efforts to our invaluable staff. The evolution of the Department continues as we are actively undertaking a number of major initiatives. These include closing the Division of Juvenile justice and coordinating the transfer of the remaining youth to the counties.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
We're also preparing to close two additional institutions in 2024 and 2025. While working to accommodate our valuable and displaced staff. CDCR is in the process of eliminating condemned housing at San Quentin, as well as restructuring restricted housing policies to decrease length of stay, offer more out of cell time, and increase programming opportunities for that population.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
We are committed to increasing rehabilitation and educational opportunities, expanding in prison college degree programming and providing students with laptops, as well as opening additional community reentry centers to accommodate more individuals in these effective programs. Lastly, and perhaps most significantly, the Department has begun to transform the prison environment via the California model, drawing on correctional practices from Norway and other reform minded correctional systems. The California model will reshape CDCR, improve the well being of those who work and live in our institution.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
As CDCR implements a number of critical initiatives over the next few years, I look forward to working collaboratively with all stakeholders, including the Legislature, to advance the mission of the Department and improve outcomes for our staff and the incarcerated population. I'd like to thank the Senate for considering my appointment and appreciate the opportunity to affect change in this new role. I look forward to your questions. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. And let me welcome your family, your spouse here. Usually they don't hide over in the corner. We usually give them top billing. But I respect your decision. Let me do this. I know that I have colleagues that absolutely are going to have to leave. Who is going to have to leave? Okay, so, Senator, actually, Senator Smallwood Cuevas, let me start with you because I know you have some questions and I may then move on and come back to you. And so I'll go to you second. Senator Laird. Go ahead, Senator.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you so much for our time together earlier this week. I don't envy the job that you have ahead, but as we talked about, you're sort of a life or two in the system and stepping into this role to bring about the change that's needed and necessary. I mentioned that this was a very controversial appointment. I don't think I've gotten as much email letters than any other appointment.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
So I know this issue is very near and dear to the heart of my district. And unfortunately, we do have limited time and other committees. And so there are a number of issues that I have been asked to ask questions on, including wages for people working in the prisons, and that's the inmate working population, how we're utilizing contracts that enable real training opportunities for certified and portable skills for those who are coming out to questions about how we need to do more to hire women CEOs.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I look in this room and it just reinforces concerns about how we are really bringing women into this space and creating a safe work environment for them.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Family connections in terms of how folks who are incarcerated can reach out and talk with their loved ones, with not incurring ridiculous costs, working with cbos within the prisons for reentry and making sure that they are well paid, and that we are really and truly investing in models that work and then making sure that our community reentry facilities are well resourced and that we're continuing those contracts as we are moving in a very new mission of this Department and leaning into that mission in real and measurable ways.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And community reentry is a part of that. And so many more, particularly making sure that we are not handing over our citizens to Ayes and making sure that in all ways that we are respecting the law and dividing our jurisdiction appropriately. So I know that's a lot, and I do really look forward to us continuing the conversation beyond today so that we can dig more into those issues. But for now, my first question is really centering on rehabilitation.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
For me, that's what this system should be about. Not perpetuating violence, but perpetuating the tools and the culture shift that needs to happen for an individual to make the greatest contribution to community. We had the parole board come here a few months ago and made it very clear that the way in which folks are released and never come back is that they are connected with community by training and by job placement and opportunities.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And you've indicated that that is a priority of yours, that this is something that you are working on. I was glad to hear 10,000 of our folks are in college and there are waiting lists for more and more residents who are inside these walls to be able to get access to education. And that there is a massive waiting list that the State Auditor found way back in 2008 that we still have not fully chipped away at. And I also know that there's inconsistency in the programming.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
We talked about that in terms of the prison sites. And while I appreciate the governor's efforts at San Quentin, that doesn't help the other 30 sites that don't have these kinds of programs available and thriving. The other issue that I want to lift up and go back to is that those programs connected to outside opportunities is the game changer. And when we talked about this programming, you talked about the need for more facilities, space.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
If we were to move toward a situation where we were actually creating more apprenticeship opportunities statewide that we would need to create more facilities. And so I want to know how can we begin this process to open up this question of how do we create the space and build the volunteers?
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I know you're working with unions, but how are we more intentional about creating across our state system opportunities for apprenticeship programs and what you believe is needed for that to happen again so that folks come out with real skills that can lead to real opportunity?
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
That's a great question and I think I share the same goal as you. Obviously, when our facilities were built over the last 30 to 150 years ago, rehabilitation was not always the number one option that we were looking at. It was finding a way to maximize the number of individuals we could put in a facility. And quite frankly, for a long time we were warehousing the population. We are in a very fortunate space now in that we're below 100,000.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
In our population we're at 95,000 and some change which allows us the opportunity to provide more programming for the folks that do remain. And so I think there's several things we can do. Number one, we need to maximize the existing resources that we do have. We need to continue our expansion in community reentry centers through our male community reentry program and our female rentry program to maximize use of those beds and roll with the money that the Legislature thankfully approved for us to expand those programs.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
And then to your larger point of how to expand within the prison, I think we can do a better job of taking advantage of doing some more labor apprenticeship opportunities. We do have some pre apprenticeship programs through our prison industry authority. I know we chatted about that and I think within the CDCR system, if we want to do a vast expansion in vocational and other space, as I mentioned before, we do have some challenges that we have maximized our utilization of space.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
And part of that is due to we've also done a huge expansion in our substance use disorder treatment program. We have 10,000 folks that are now enrolled in cognitive behavioral intervention programs that what little space we did have, a lot of those programs have filled those up. So we're super open to any sort of conversation to maximize or increase space and opportunities for rehabilitation. I couldn't agree with you more.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you for that. And I think that's something we need to work on when the parole board says 93% antirecitivism rate because of good jobs. And that means we've got to make sure that that is key to our system. My next question goes to this other culture shift need. And that is, how do we deal with sexual violence behind the walls? There are only 2200 women in the system, yet there was one co who was charged with sexual misconduct involving 22 incarcerated women.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Meaning one individual actually assaulted 1% of the state prison population. Population of women in prison. According to the Coalition of Women's prisoners, the officer behaved this way over a decade, and 22 women came forward. And we know when women come forward, they're often women and other victims who don't. So the same prison law office in 2016 report found that staff do not properly or completely investigate all allegations of mistreatment. And then in 2021, the OIG found that CDR poorly handled 60% of all complaints against staff.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
So we talked about the Norway model. We talked about culture shift. You've been in this space, as I mentioned, your entire career. What does it take to create the culture change that stops this level of violence, be it against women, against children, against male inmates? How are you protecting, particularly women in prison, given this latest situation?
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
The second question, follow up to that, I'm just going to lay them both out, is these rehabilitation goals and the Norway model that you talked about, when you still have staff who are engaging in these dehumanizing behaviors, how does that threaten the opportunity to move closer to this Norway model and a more rehabilitative model?
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Well, let me start out by saying the incident with the officer that you mentioned at CCWF is appalling. As soon as we found out about it, that individual is removed from their post and promptly retired and is now being prosecuted for the offenses. And I want to say thanks to the Legislature that we had cameras in place at CCWF that were able to help corroborate the information provided, which will greatly assist in that prosecution.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
So as a Department, we provide training on Prius standards each year to our staff. We also are audited by an independent Auditor group from another state that does not audit us. So there's no between the states. And we do very well with our pre and audit process. Do we have folks that engage in misconduct? Yes. And will we do our best to root those individuals out? Yes.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
And as part of that, we do plan next year, in 2024, as part of our training cycle, to roll out active bystandership training, which is training designed for peace officers. And I think we may have talked about this briefly to intervene when they see something that's not going right or not well, and give them the tools to put that into action within the Department.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
We also, if you go into our facilities, you'll see that we post all kinds of different numbers of ways and variety to report misconduct via that whistleblower hotlines, through our ombudsman's office, through our Office of Inspector General, through staff, through counselors, and through our healthcare professionals. So we have a number of avenues available to report the misconduct. But, yeah, this was a very unfortunate incident. I don't think it's indicative of most of our staff.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
We also provide, of course, the sexual harassment training and also training on dealing with the transgender population as well, to all staff each year. So I think we have the systems in place, and I think the California model fits into where we want to head, that we want to improve interactions between staff and the populations. We want to break down those barriers that might exist or historically have existed going forward. So I think we have an opportunity here. Are we perfect? No.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
I have 60,000 employees in the Department. We are the largest state Department. And I often tell folks, if I have 1% not doing the right thing, I've got 600 people not doing the right thing. And I could tell meeting with you, you are a numbers person, because you've hit my points before I could on our meeting.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I appreciate that. And no one can assault 1% of the state prison system alone. So I appreciate the deeper training and alert system to better protect women in particular. But those that we are entrusting with your rehabilitative care, I have more questions, but I will defer to you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I will come back after we've made our rounds.
- John Laird
Legislator
Senator Laird, let me just say they're just getting to the testimony on the last Bill in labor. So I think we should go over there and then come back and ask our questions.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay. Thank you for helping us manage this, Madam Vice Chair. Why don't you go ahead?
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. McComber, for having the conversation that we had. I really appreciated you coming to the office. I appreciate your plan and how you want to move forward and the changes that you're making with CDCR. I appreciate your forethought and how things have changed and how if you create a peaceful inmate population where there are programs and not just programs, but not educational programs and college programs we talked about, there's a lot of people that aren't going to go to college.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I shared with you a story of a gentleman that came into my office, and he was so excited. It's the first job he'd been offered in months, and he couldn't read and write very well, so we had to have him fill out his application. He's not going to go to college. So I don't want any of those people to be missed. I shared with you how I love that you've implemented the dog.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
When, when my constituent who has one of the contracts with the dog program shares with me some of those photos of people actually having inmates that you think are hardened and not changeable and they're holding a dog in their arms and dogs make us all happy. From the Senate pro Tim's Joey to my Lila, dogs make us all happy. So I appreciate that you've thought outside the box. I appreciate all those things. I do have huge concerns over the prison closures.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I know that you're just doing what your Boss is. I don't want to say your Boss is implementing you to do. The Legislature is implementing you do. I think it's the governor's office that's closing these facilities. I could be wrong, but the next facilities in closure are California City, small city in my district, 500 employees that will either be displaced or sent to another prison that's closing soon in 2024.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
And specifically CDCR being the largest employer in this little community makes me very, very nervous if the community will survive. So what are the things that you're doing to ensure that staff has a place to go and that those that need to be held behind bars are held behind bars in a different location and facility? And how does that work with their family Members for visitation and also the community itself?
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Yeah, that's a great question. So for the staff, we will go through a CalHR approved process like we have with the closure of dual vocational institution and the California Correctional center in Susanville, where we'll look at other opportunities for those staff to transfer to other vacancies, either local or statewide. We are fortunate or unfortunate, depending on how you're looking at it, that we do have vacancy statewide, particularly in our peace officer classification.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
So we have plenty of landing spots for the vast majority, if not all the staff that are working in the calcity facility in terms of the population that lives there. They will be transferred to other institutions consistent with their case factors. So we'll look at what programs they need, where they are in their path to find the best facility for them to go to going forward. It will not result in any sort of early releases or anything like that.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
The closure, that displaced population will be moved slowly to other facilities. And in fact, we've started that downsizing process now, so we could be thoughtful as we roll that. And I know we spent some time talking about the impacts to the communities with the closure of Susanville. My partners in labor and workforce development and Gobiz and governor's Office of Planning and Research are committed to help assist those communities and have met with the City of Susanville.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
And I know we are open to do the same on future closures as well. Maybe a great question for who's up next. You're welcome.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Thank you. We will ask that question.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Thank you.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
So be prepared.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
I'm going to pay for that one.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I think I just have a question. On one hand, the Governor hails your restorative justice programs and the things that you're doing to make sure that those that are released from prison are successful outside of prison. But our communities are really struggling with the crime, smash and grabs, locking up.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
You can't go down a Walmart or target aisle or anything without having to get somebody to assist you to get something out of a locked case and then other kind of more brutal crimes that are happening on our streets. How do you balance that? Because you're probably the target, right? It's probably not him so much as the guy running CDCR.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Yeah, well, I think it's always balancing public safety with not just simply warehousing individuals who otherwise would be ready for release. I know that the Committee got a lot of letters on the 1170 D process, and the secretary is one of the individuals that has the authority to refer cases back for resentencing. And I take that process very seriously. And only looking at those that I feel comfortable that are not going to be a significant danger to society to recommend potential resentencing back to the court.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
That is a difficult issue. And the fact of the matter is the Department can hold people up to their legal release date, and then we have to release folks. It's my job to give them those tools to the extent we can to be successful. And some of those issues have come up already. Are they prepared to get a job? Do they have a home to go to? Are they drug free? Do they have financial resources? There's certain things that help bring success to that population.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Those are three big ones. We're also very encouraged about slightly going off track of being able to do the Calam initiative where we can enroll people in medical 90 days before they release. We're really excited about that program. Obviously, some of the people that struggle out there are those with mental illness and other challenges. And in a perfect world, those folks would have those issues dealt with prior to coming to prison.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
But a lot of times they come to prison and then we provide treatment once they're there. So I believe it's our responsibility to do the best job we can, which is why I am an advocate for programming. I've seen what programming can do to folks that sometimes just want to show up and get extra credit or whatever the case may be. But then they see the change starts to happen. And not all of our folks are ready for change. Some are and some are not.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
But we want to keep giving them that opportunity once they're ready.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I appreciate that in the real world, business owner and I contacted Ms. Hernandez, who runs the company on a day to day basis, and asked her what her second chancer rate is because it's tracked for tax credits and things like that. 33% of the employees that we employ are second chancers. I asked her what the loss ratio, we call a loss ratio rate is. It's 2.9%, which is very minimal. When you think about the, I don't want to say failure rate because there's so much more.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
There's 31% of a success rate of people going on to get full time jobs. And then she shared a story with me that even one person that came from your population out into the world and started off at a weed eating has now started, gone through the company and started his own little oil filled contracting company. And he came back to our company to get three more employees to help him. So there is success out there.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
And I think the biggest thing that you can offer anybody, whether, and I agree that education is important, but the bottom line is that they need a job so they can have dignity, self worth, provide for their families, make sure that they're self sustainable. And the job creates all of those things inside of you. And the best solution to poverty is a job.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
And so I would encourage you to keep doing those things that you're doing to ensure that those that are leaving the system, that are deemed to leave the system, that they're just not released out into the street with nothing to do, that they have a job, and we give them the tools that they need to be successful. So thank you. And I look forward to your confirmation.
- Jeffrey Macomber
Person
Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Senator Ochoa-Bogh, go ahead.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
My colleagues on a roll of asking excellent questions. I have to say I'm grateful for both of them taking the lead thus far on the questions. So actually, some of the questions were asked that I wanted to talk about. So I'm going to touch up on a couple of items that we already discussed, and I think it would be great to have them on record.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
Just want to reiterate the comments as far as the prison closures and the impact that it has on the communities surrounding them. And we talked about the closures in Blythe and the letters of opposition or concern that we've received from many, many other cities. So I just wanted to make sure that we were on record that we had discussed that we've expressed their concerns to the powers that be. This is you.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
So at this time, I would just would appreciate kind of having a little bit of an input from you with regards to our conversation regarding prison contraband and what we currently have in place, what we need to do as a system because of the concerns that we've received with regards to continuous nefarious work that's being done from inside our prisons to the outside communities and how that impacts the culture, both in the prison and the ability to go back. So what do we have in place?
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
What do we need to do better in order to make sure that that is not happening and that we don't bring in that outside culture of nefarious?
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
Yes, gross. Work coming into our prisons, where we want a culture that is fostering to what the Norway model is. With that in mind, it did trigger my thought that, I visited the Lancaster prison, was very impressed with it.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
With the different yards because, according to the inmates, it's important to have different yards, so that people with different mindsets are allowed to progress in a safe environment where they can pursue their skill sets in education or work skill sets, so that they're not threatened or even killed. And this is coming from them, even within them.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
And I think there's a correlation between that and making sure that we have safe spaces. But having the environment where they feel where they can pursue that self-improvement, because not everyone, as you mentioned, is on that thought process.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
And this is coming from their perspective, their voice. Where they said, not everyone is on the same pathway of development and progression and willingness to do that self-improvement. So, you may start where you feel is most appropriate.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Well, I would agree with you that contraband is a serious concern in the department because it often leads to some of the violence we have in our department, because it leads to drugs and cell phones and stuff that becomes a hot commodity while you're in a prison environment.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
And contraband comes in, in a lot of different ways into prison. It could come in through packages and legal mail. Unfortunately, every weekend, I get notices.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
We are arresting five, six, seven visitors who are bringing, usually drugs into the prison. On rare occasions, we also have staff, dirty staff that we catch bringing contraband to the prison, who we turn around and quickly fire and prosecute.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
And then more recently, we've seen more and more drone activity. And typically, the drones are flying in the middle of the night when I don't have staff out on the yards to detect them. But last year, we had well over 200 drone sightings.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Just a few weeks ago, at the prison that I used to be warden at, we had a drone that was going to do a drop. It hit one of our super tall light poles, crashed to the ground with an eight-pound bag of Marijuana in it.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
People are very creative in getting drugs into the prison, and I won't go into all the ways to not give anyone any further ideas, but is a serious concern. And so we have some avenues to help us with that.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
We have some cell phone detection equipment. We have 68 canines throughout the department that some are cell phone detection dogs, some are drug detection dogs, some do both. We do have some technology that also detects cell phones.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So we try to do a multilayered approach. And for staff, we look at things like we do periodic, what we call enhanced inspections. Where staff have to empty all their pockets, all their materials out on the table, that we go through that through those enhanced inspections.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
And we're also considering, we have to go through our labor negotiation process, but making greater use of our canine teams to not only search visitors, but staff as well. It's to everyone's benefit to not have drugs coming into the prison.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
I think that's a universal agreement. And also, we do have the largest ISUDT program of a law enforcement agency in the country. I have 15,000 of our population that are on medicated assisted therapy now.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So we're trying to stem the flow that way as well. So I think it's a multilayered approach to try to combat this. I don't think it's a single solution. I am interested down the line in pursuing more opportunities to have more canine units because I think that is a very effective mechanism. So hopefully I've answered your question.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
I hope, and I won't know until after the fact and I receive feedback from stakeholders. But I'm not sure how you monitor the amount of nefarious work being done within the facility, within prisons and how you can adjust your plan to improve the environment so that it's not occurring as often or as deeply as it sounds, as it is. But it is of great concern to me.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
Frustrating that we're removing people from the communities in order to help them have opportunities to, one, be accountable and number two, have rehabilitation purposes. And to find out that it is so deeply embedded right now within the prison system, that it just defeats the purpose.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
As my friend of ours, our family who served prison time said, he goes, not going to cuss, but he goes. He goes, "We're cons. This is what we do. We con people. We learn how to work the system and we work it to get what we want."
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
And it was frustrating. It was very frustrating to hear that from his perspective. Having said that, my second question would be with regards to the good time credits, causing the perception for some and for others may not be, but causing the early release of inmates.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
So as we mentioned in our conversations, there has been concerns on the process in which inmates are evaluated and released into the public. And the lack of clarity as to why and how that was determined.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
As far as information being available to our district attorneys, in order to explain to the community members as to how that happened.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
And then, having incidents of serious violence or even death by these same inmates that were released on an early. And we gave some examples from my district that had happened in that scenario.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
So if you wouldn't mind just explaining the differences or the similarities or the fact that in your perspective, it's still the same as to how it used to be to what we have now currently in place. And that perception of having those good credits being applied to the early release and not fully serving those sentences.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So when CDCR implemented Prop 57, which gave the secretary basically the authority to manage credits within the department. So as that's been done over the years, that has gone through the public rulemaking process where folks have had the opportunity to provide input and look into that and provide feedback regarding those regulations.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
And the department does offer credits for not only good conduct, but for folks' participation in rehabilitation programs, for things like cognitive behavioral interventions, for vocational programs and things for like earning college course completions, as well as AA degrees and high school diplomas.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So we do that as a method to incentivize folks to get into programming. And maybe once you're exposed to that, you become one of those individuals that you reference, that is ready for a full program and does not want to lead that gang lifestyle, that wants to live in that progressive programming yard, which I believe is the one you were referencing at Lancaster State Prison.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So I do not consider those early releases at the point in time, they've earned those credits and have served their full term. So, we do not refer to those as an early release.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
It is true, during COVID we did do some folks that were close to the release date, that were lower-level offenders we did release early, but those were only a number of months before their normal release date. So those would have all been out of the system by now.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So I think it's trying to get that balance between public safety while also providing incentive for folks to wanting to program. And we always strive to strike that balance and are always open for further discussion on that.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
Perfect. Thank you, sir.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you, Senator Laird.
- John Laird
Legislator
Thank you very much. And I apologize for being out of the Committee, and I hope to God I'm not asking a question that you just answered, but I thought I would start. And I really appreciate you taking the time to meet.
- John Laird
Legislator
And I appreciate the fact that your family is here and the family of the next cabinet secretary is here, because I mentioned when we met that I was rather cavalier when I had to go through cabinet conversation and said my nomination was best served by him not being present. But it is a nice thing for families to be here and be supportive.
- John Laird
Legislator
I thought I'd start with one we talked about, that's a rather lower grade one, and hopefully it hasn't been asked, but the prison at Corcoran is potentially right in the path of a flood. And you talked about how you're staying on top of it and what your contingency plans are. Could you let the Committee know what that is?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Yes. We're closely monitoring the Tulare Lake situation. As you're probably aware, the Governor was actually down there yesterday to put eyes on himself. Both local wardens are actively involved in daily conversations with the locals.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
I've got excellent cooperation and coordination with Cal OES and the Department of Water Resources on what's happening down there. We're working very well together. But in the worst case scenario, we do have a potential evacuation plan developed, should we have to go there.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
In discussions with my colleagues, they do not believe that will happen. While if you see pictures, it does appear the water is very close, that water is flowing the other direction as it stands now. So we're closely monitoring it.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Obviously, we have a warm several days over the next five to six days before another cooling trend, but we're closely monitoring it. And we're told that this is not going to be a situation where we're going to get 24 hours' notice of it's going to overtop to levee.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
This is something where, if there's a significant danger, we should have many weeks' notice. And we've developed an action plan that would allow us to safely move folks out and taking into account some of the challenging populations we have who might be in wheelchairs or have a mental illness. So, we've tried to be thoughtful on how we would do it. Should we have to go there.
- John Laird
Legislator
Because they can't just go to any secondary unit.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
You are correct. So we want to be very thoughtful that we're sending those folks to an accessible location. If they have a disability or if you have a mental illness, for example, I want to send you to a place where we can continue that treatment or utilize the staff that we also have to redirect to other facilities, should that be needed.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
But we're pretty confident right now that evacuation won't be necessary. But we are planning for the worst.
- John Laird
Legislator
Okay. I'm just aware from a past job I can never name in front of Senator Grove, that you have to be prepared. You don't get a warning sometimes. And then I wanted to ask a thing we talked about in our meeting that is more top level, and I did it with the other cabinet secretary as well.
- John Laird
Legislator
You're at the top of an institution that has at least whatever the number is, 23 prison facilities that are scattered all over.
- John Laird
Legislator
It's decentralized and it's thousands and thousands of employees in addition to the people that are incarcerated. How do you as a manager, stay on top of that? How do you feel like you're getting the information from every location that allows you to feel like you're knowing what's going on and you're not blindsided by things?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Well, I wish there was a perfect answer to that, but with 60,000 employees, and to your point, we have facilities that are on the Oregon border and a stone's throw from the Mexican border as well. So what we try to do in the department is have a robust communications plan internally as well as using various social media platforms.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
I take my time to meet with leadership folks. We do offer ongoing, tenuous leadership development programs where we bring folks up to Sacramento.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
I take my time out of my day to meet with those folks. When we have a wardens meeting, I always make a point to spending a full day with those folks to hopefully spread my message. Because the danger, and I think what you're alluding to is when you have that telephone game, when it goes from me down to a rank-and-file officer, you're spanning probably 15 different levels, and it can be easy to get things lost.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So we're really also focusing on a more robust and better training plan to get the message. This will be particularly critical as we roll out what we call the California Model. We want clear and concise information, and I need standardized training, and I also need the right people delivering that training to deliver that right message.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So we do our best to do regular communication. We have cabinet meetings, and I have a great team that's committed to go where we need to go.
- John Laird
Legislator
You're actually right. There is no right answer to that. But there's your answer, and it gives us a sense of how you're willing to stay on top of it and know that that's a goal. Then my last question is really in the area of budget, and if you're in a budget world here, you think it's a very large budget.
- John Laird
Legislator
If you're getting wages for prison work or you're getting the food and it's limited to something like $4 a day, how do you both make it stretch and advocate for more fairness in what some of those things should be?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Yeah, that's been more difficult as of late. With inflation, dollars don't go as far. We feed our population now on a little bit over $4 a day, I believe, is our budgeted level. Would I like more dollars to improve our food quality?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
I certainly would. I've been pretty transparent that I'd love to see increased wages for our population, things of that nature. And I think part of this ties to where we want to go with the California Model and normalization and things like that.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Do we want to give folks good quality meals? Do we want to give them a comfortable mattress? Do we want to give them better clothing? A lot of those things come into play. And so I'm very interested in further discussions on how we can look to do something around the wage issue.
- John Laird
Legislator
I really appreciate that. I think that's an element of just basic fairness, and we've got to get there.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
We completely agree.
- John Laird
Legislator
Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you, Senator. Thank you. I'm going to ask a few questions, and then I'll go back to Senator Smallwood-Cuevas. On the closures, I just want to add something that I shared, I think, with you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
And since the next conferee is here, there's the workforce development piece of it, but there's also the community economic development piece. And I've shared this with the Administration. There has to be planning to do a closure. And I think I shared this with you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
And I want to really thank you for all the time you spent with me. You answered a number of questions that have been previously asked by Senator Smallwood-Cuevas and others. But I know the governor's staff is represented here. There are pieces of this.
- Toni Atkins
Person
There is the inmates and the employment of. There's family visitation of inmates. There's employees of the facility. There is a community in which it exists. And there's an economic component which we dealt with last time.
- Toni Atkins
Person
There was a closure right before we did a confirmation of a secretary of CDCR. And I think that it is incumbent upon us, in government to be looking also.
- Toni Atkins
Person
This is really not your purview, but you can share the message that Senators have said to you through the confirmation process, that there is a responsibility to the economic viability of a local community. And I know that Secretary Knox understands that, as well as the workforce piece.
- Toni Atkins
Person
So while you're both here, I want to put that out there because local communities, particularly rural, it's their livelihood. So that's just a statement, and I shared that with you. But I'm glad that Secretary Knox is here the same day.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I have a couple of quick questions. And I'm glad that the Senator asked about, the former secretary of natural resources, asked about Tulare Lake. We are going to try to stay updated on that.
- Toni Atkins
Person
That has broader ramifications than just to the members who live and represent that area. And we need to be supportive of that from a broad standpoint. I have a couple of hopefully quick questions that come from members of the community, which I'm sure you've been made aware of.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I am concerned about three potential things. I have heard and want you to respond to the fact that there are potential immigration holds being put on individuals that are not undocumented. I don't know and I wanted you to respond to that because obviously that's not legal.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I would imagine that immigration holds will be put on folks who are citizens. But also, as it relates to undocumented individuals who are incarcerated. I am concerned about whether they have access to educational and rehabilitative programs as well. So, can you respond to those?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Yeah, and I would share your concern if there is individuals who have ICE holds placed inappropriately. I know, I believe was ACLU and perhaps others provided a list, which I have my folks looking at that list right now.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
And to answer your question, we do not exclude folks that may have an ICE hold from participation in education vocational and other in prison programs.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
In fact, we ran the data just this morning because I know it was a concern of a couple of Members of the Committee that that group actually is enrolled in our education vocational programs at a higher percentage than folks without an ICE hold.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So they're actually overrepresented within that group. And I'm also aware there was some concern about some of those individuals not having access to some of our community-based programs, such as camps and others.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So we are actually in the final stages of the regulation process, the drafting of that process, to no longer consider ICE holds when considering camp placement or placement in reentry facilities.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Which there were some individuals that may have been previously excluded based on existing departmental criteria, but we are actually changing our regulations to no longer have that as even a component we look at.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay, Secretary, I appreciate the fact that you agreed to meet with some folks on a regular basis, as former Secretaries have done.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I will ask our staff if they will follow up, to be sure to communicate with your office to get what you find from the research you're doing now that you maybe weren't able to give us today so that we can make sure we close the loop on that. I would ask, tell me what you mean by an ICE hold.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
And so if an individual is coming into the prison system, and when we review their paperwork, if say, a probation officer's report or other documentation we receive, shows an individual is foreign born and maybe subject to deportation.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
We do contact ICE to see if they want to place a hold on that individual. And so that is part of our process upon intake as we go through, and it's been part of our process in an ongoing basis.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I wasn't prepared to ask this question. Let me just ask this, and I have colleagues who may disagree with me on this. We have mixed perspectives on this. But is CDCR not subject to SB 54 and notification and collaboration with ICE as it relates to undocumented?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So when SB 54 was passed, it excluded the state corrections. It applied to the locals only. There's still penal code language that is on the books that says, we shall cooperate. There were pieces of SB 54, the Values Act, that do apply to CDCR, which was the question tied to, do we allow participation in academic and vocational programs?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
The answer is yes. We also no longer hold individuals past the release date to have an ICE hold that was part of SB 54.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
And there's also a provision that basically states that the population has a right to refuse interview, if ICE wants to interview an individual, and they have the opportunity to have a lawyer present. So we've implemented all the provisions that did apply to CDCR, but when that was passed in 2018, CDCR was excluded.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay, that's helpful to understand. We may follow up later to ask more about how you're differentiating and when you're the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, so to speak. Maybe a simple question. Did access to being able to get a DMV identification card before they leave prison. And Social Security, how do you.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Yeah, so we're gaining a lot of momentum on the DMV piece. In terms of DMV now allow us to use photos up to 15 years old, where the past was only 10 years. And we've also worked collaboratively with DMV to pilot tablets to allow us to take photos. We do expect to roll that out to all prisons by the end of July.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So this has been a long time coming, and so it'll allow everyone to release with a Cal ID or a driver's license if they remain eligible. We're also working with Social Security on getting that going. They have to audit our computer systems and other pieces before they will agree to allow us to do that.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
But that is well underway. We're at the mercy of Social Security a little bit, but I think we're on a good track to have resolution there.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Because again, I think this ties to those prior questions. It's hard to get a job or an apartment or anything else if you don't have a simple ID. And so there's a lot of things that are coming together here. Well, for us, between CalAIM and having IDs and housing, it all fits together as part of a whole reentry plan that we're trying to get to.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Well, I really appreciate that. I wish you the best on the California Model. Obviously, it's going to take work and we may check in now and again, but I really appreciate that perspective. Before I go to Senator Smallwood-Cuevas, I know, and I should let folks know, and I want to try to do things as orderly as possible.
- Toni Atkins
Person
We're a little different in the Rules Committee than Policy Committees, and we give latitude. But there are over 40 people waiting on the phone to speak.
- Toni Atkins
Person
So I know that there are folks here in present and everybody present gets to speak. And I know some of you have things you want to say. So let me just ask. I will allow probably three people support and three people oppose to make two minutes worth of comments, and then I'm going to do the Metoos, as we call it.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I am here in support. I am here in opposition. You can say your name, your organization, if any, you represent, and your yes or no.
- Toni Atkins
Person
And I know that some of you folks know each other, so maybe you can coordinate very quietly, coordinate very quietly while the good Senator ask a few more questions so that we can be orderly about how to do this. I want people to be able to speak. I don't want people after the fact to say I had something to say.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
What is the differential, in terms of cost, between someone in prison living in prison and someone living in a community reentry center?
- Toni Atkins
Person
So if those of you that have a little bit of a coordinated two minute, three of you, three of you, and then the MeToos I oppose, I support. Madam Smallwood Quavis.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you so much.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Or Senator. I'm Madam Chair. You're the Senator. Go ahead.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you for your questions. You hit on some of the points that I wanted to hit on, but it allowed me to bring up my Senator, former secretary of natural resources and my good friend, Senator Laird talked about the wage question. And I wanted to just ask a question.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
I don't want to guess off the top of my head. I can tell you, I know what it costs per year on average to house a member of the population, which is, I believe, 104,000. And I believe there is language, and I don't know if it still exists.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
That said, the cost of the community-based program should not exceed the average daily cost of prison. But I don't want to guess on that. So, I'd like to get back to you on that.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I'd like to guess.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Okay.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
One, because my understanding is significantly less for someone to live in a reentry center. And I wonder how CDCR would look to be expanding that reentry model and also make sure that we're bringing more community partners into that space.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Yeah, we're really open and working towards expanding reentry. We see results of recent studies internally and externally that show significant decreases in recidivism rates for folks that spend. Our best results are folks that spend nine or more months out in one of those reentry facilities.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So we're very mindful of the timing, and I think there's a lot of benefits in terms of community connections. And folks that are out in those reentry centers can get real jobs.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
They're getting experience, they're getting wages, or if they need it, they're getting treatment while they're there. And there were some questions about gang politics and other things. We really don't see those types of things in those reentry centers, so they add a ton of value. So we are super supportive of expanding those programs.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And the reason I raise it is because we know the Legislature did make an investment in that model and we were building this successful network. But those contracts are up, and I've heard from a number of those contractors that there has not been an indication that we're going to renew and continue the successful model.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
So I don't know if you can comment on that now, but my hope is that we can continue to work through whatever the challenge is so that we can continue and not lose ground.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Yeah, we share that concern. I think some of the providers are being impacted, like all of us, by the inflationary pressures of a contract they may have bid several years ago. And so we're coordinating with Department of Finance and other agencies to come up with a viable plan because we share that same concern.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And then my final question, and thank you, Madam Chair, for indulging me. And I still am not going to get to all of them, but I want to just raise this question about how we can deal with the resentencing referral process.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
There were some misunderstandings, some clarification that needed to be done on that process. It has been done. From my understanding, there are a number of letters that have not been considered.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And within your answer, can you give me some thoughts on this option to resend referrals that were not acted upon prior to AB 1540 and what you think the appropriate exclusions, especially given recently passed legislation?
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And at this moment, the sense in the community is that it's just moving too slow and that there have only been 12 folks who've been able to successfully move through this process. Just wondering, can you speak to your approach to these referrals?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Yeah. The 1170 process allows the secretary and prosecutors and others to refer cases back to the court either for exceptional conduct, sentence discrepancies, or for sentence enhancements that were in place maybe 20 years ago that were not.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Okay.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Now, the Department alone has referred about 2200 cases. Almost 900 folks have received a reduced sentence as a result of this, and that's shaved off a total of over 4600 years off sentences.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
So we continue to do those referrals on a case-by-case review. In fact, I did some this morning, and so it's an ongoing process. I did read that there was a question in 2018 about not understanding.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
I don't have information on what that is, but we're certainly open to work with the Judicial Council and others if we need to get information out on a consistent basis, I think that group might be a good partner for us. So we're very much open to that conversation.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
In terms of potentially folks who did have letters sent, but because of the confusion, were not considered. How can we go back to address those cases?
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Yeah, and again, I think talking to the judicial counsel, I think we've also had some discussions of folks that did receive and didn't act on the letter, and they're clear that they intentionally did not act.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
But we're open to looking at that process and seeing what we can do. Because what I think, to your point is we want to make sure none slips through the cracks. There's one thing to say, no, we're not resentencing. There's another thing to say.
- Jeff Macomber
Person
Did it get lost in the process or the bureaucracy? And I think that's a mutual concern.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Okay, we're going to go to members of the public. We're going to start right here in room 2200 with people who are in support. So I'm trusting that three solid people are ready to go with a couple of comments.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Two minutes. Come on forward, please. Welcome. Give me your name, organization, if any, and two minutes. Welcome.
- Sean Gage
Person
Okay. My name is Sean Gage. Peace, power and positivity. I'm a life coach with hope and redemption team of Anti-Recidivism Coalition. I'm here with some of my cohorts back there. Wajuba Mcduffie, Candice Lewis, Gary Burt is here and also Willie Woods.
- Sean Gage
Person
I'm in support of Secretary Macomber. I want to say that I, myself along with my cohorts, we are recipients of the rehabilitative programs that exist within CDC. We are all former lifers.
- Sean Gage
Person
Now we all work back inside of the institutions as life coaches to help him make his dream come true, to change the population, to change the people. And one last thing, if I may. Our Executive Director, Sam Lewis for ARC, is actually on the phone in line. He wants to know if he can at least have two minutes.
- Toni Atkins
Person
What is his name?
- Sean Gage
Person
Samuel Lewis.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay. Yes. Thank you.
- Sean Gage
Person
Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
That'll be the third person. So the next person gets two minutes and then we'll go to those in support. Just making the statement
- Matt Cate
Person
Madam Chair, that statement was more important than mine and speaks volumes about Secretary Macomber. My name is Matt Cate. I'm the former secretary of corrections here in California and served in Governor Brown's Administration in that role.
- Matt Cate
Person
I'm here today for two reasons. One, is to represent the Amity Foundation, Westcare and Health Right 360. The three nonprofits and CBOs who provide the majority of rehabilitation and reentry work for the department. All three have sent letters in support of Secretary Macomber.
- Matt Cate
Person
He is accessible to those nonprofits and those cbos. He has been supportive of their work without question. And all three have sent letters I say, in support. Those speak for themselves. And personally, I have seen Mr. Macomber work when I served in his role.
- Matt Cate
Person
If we had a terrible problem to solve, we would always bring Mr. Macomber up over his objections from the field to work in headquarters to solve that problem.
- Matt Cate
Person
He was the best and brightest of us and it's rare to find someone of his professional skills and his heart combined in one person. So I wholeheartedly am in favor of his support and thank you for your time. You're lucky to have him.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. Thank you very much and thank you for your service. Welcome.
- Neil Flood
Person
Neil Flood, California Correctional Peace Officer Association. Rank-and-File, Vice President. Madam Chair, distinguished Members. Can I just have a quick moment?
- Toni Atkins
Person
You can have the 30 seconds that Mr. Cate did not use. 45, actually, 45.
- Neil Flood
Person
Though we face many challenges today and we have faced challenges in the last few years and our organization has not always seen eye to eye with CDCR and the decisions that they made. We are very hopeful, and we are very excited to see how Secretary Macomber functions, if he is confirmed.
- Neil Flood
Person
And for me personally, I've worked with him in many different aspects of this organization and have enjoyed the interactions that we've had and do love the fact that he has an open door policy to everybody with their issues and concerns. So we hope and support his confirmation.
- Toni Atkins
Person
That was perfect. Thank you so much. Welcome. Next speaker.
- Colby Lenz
Person
I'm hoping to speak neutral with some concerns. Is that okay?
- Toni Atkins
Person
That is perfectly fine. I'll give you two minutes.
- Colby Lenz
Person
Okay. Hi, my name is Colby Lenz. I'm here with the California Coalition for Women Prisoners. We've been working for more than 27 years with people incarcerated in the women's prisons in California. We are extremely concerned with the ongoing culture of sexual harassment and violence that was brought up earlier.
- Colby Lenz
Person
This culture has been documented for decades without any sustained intervention by CDCR's leadership. The recent admission in the case that came up earlier about Rodriguez is just one of many in which CDCR enables a culture of rape by law enforcement. Survivors have reported being assaulted by CEO Rodriguez. Survivors who have reported.
- Toni Atkins
Person
If you could slow down for. And I won't count it against you.
- Colby Lenz
Person
Okay. Survivors who have reported being assaulted by CEO Rodriguez, like survivors of sexual assault by countless correctional officers over decades, have faced severe retaliation since reporting. We ask you, Secretary Macomber, to end the culture of sexual violence that permeates the women's prisons.
- Colby Lenz
Person
Further, we are concerned with the high rates of sexual harassment and violence that transgender women in particular, also experience by staff, both in the women's prisons and in many other prisons.
- Colby Lenz
Person
Our question is, what will you do to protect whistleblowers who report sexual harassment and assault by CDCR staff? Because currently, right now, I'm working with several survivors in the Rodriguez case, and many of them have experienced retaliation by other officers who possibly enabled it or supported that officer in other ways.
- Colby Lenz
Person
And we are also concerned that CDCR's current resentencing policies exclude entire categories of people, including people sentenced to life without parole and exclusion based on an outdated interpretations of the law. Thank you so much.
- Colby Lenz
Person
Lastly, we are acutely aware of the costly, devastating effects of extreme sentencing in California and urge the secretary to increase CDCR's resentencing referrals in all categories or cohorts, to create real and equitable opportunities for sentence review post-conviction.
- Colby Lenz
Person
And we are also concerned that CDCR's current resentencing policies exclude entire categories of people, including people sentenced to life without parole and exclusion based on an outdated interpretations of the law. Thank you so much.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Okay. That was concern. Not exactly opposition, but serious concerns. Come forward. Thank you. Welcome.
- Danica Rodarmel
Person
Thank you. Danica Rodarmel, on behalf of the Transformative In-Prison Workgroup, the Grip Training Institute, and Initiate Justice. All taking a neutral position, but I think potentially movable to support.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness. Welcome.
- Dan Seaman
Person
Also, just on a personal note, as a former colleague of Jeff, great integrity believes in second chances and strong support on a personal level. Thank You.
- Dan Seaman
Person
Thank you. Dan Seaman, on behalf of Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice, Californians for Safety and Justice, the Reform Alliance, and the Reentry Providers Association of California. All in strong support.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. Next witness.
- Claudia Gonzalez
Person
Hello. I'd like to make a neutral statement, if that's okay.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Concerned. Okay. Yes. I'll give you two minutes.
- Toni Atkins
Person
That's the third category. Concerns opposition support. Two minutes.
- Claudia Gonzalez
Person
Perfect.
- Claudia Gonzalez
Person
Thank you. My name is Claudia Gonzalez, and I am the policy associate at Root and Rebound, a legal nonprofit supporting incarcerated and formerly incarcerated people navigating reentry journeys. I'm also a resident of Merced County.
- Toni Atkins
Person
You can slow down a little bit just for her. I won't hold it accounted against you.
- Claudia Gonzalez
Person
Given that my community is surrounded by prisons, oftentimes I am asked to support and transport people who have been granted parole.
- Claudia Gonzalez
Person
I'm also a resident of Merced County and California Central Valley. I am here today just to urge the Senate Rules Committee and Governor Newsom to ensure that any secretary nominee commits to ending the unlawful practices and collusion between CDCR and ICE.
- Claudia Gonzalez
Person
However, CDCR's terrible practice of referring every foreign-born individual in its custody to ICE has resulted in people being detained at the gates, without even given the opportunity to go home. This entrapping policy has led to many people being doubly punished, to residents and citizens being investigated, detained and unfairly put into the deportation pipeline.
- Claudia Gonzalez
Person
We must end these draconian and harmful practices and instead invest in community-based alternatives programs that allow people to return home to their families and communities. Thank you.
- Claudia Gonzalez
Person
Based on CDCR's assumption about the race, place of birth, name, or how well they speak English, I definitely believe this is a clear violation of the California Values Act, and it leads to the denial of individual rights.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Hello. I have a brief statement of concern, if that's okay.
- Toni Atkins
Person
You will be the last person to do that. That will be three. I'm doing three, three and three. So, you have two minutes.
- Liz Blum
Person
CURB published a people's plan for prison closure in April of 2021 to lay out a comprehensive plan for the State of California to close prisons in a way that centers and prioritizes the needs of incarcerated people and their loved ones.
- Liz Blum
Person
Thank you. Hi, my name is Liz Blum with Decarcerate Sacramento and a member of the Californians United for Responsible Budget, or CURB Coalition.
- Liz Blum
Person
In addition to the communities in which states, state prisons have been placed, CDCR's process of determining which prisons to close has been extremely unclear and frustrating to legislatures as well as those incarcerated and their communities.
- Liz Blum
Person
The LAO's office has also been explicit that CDCR does not have a clear plan to close additional prisons, which could cost the state billions of dollars. So without a roadmap to close California prisons, the state risks investing billions in prisons that may soon be shuttered.
- Liz Blum
Person
So we hope that the secretary Macomber is willing to take steps to prevent additional infrastructure allocations in the budget until a community informed roadmap for prison closure is approved. And CURB's most recent prison closure roadmap, released in March of this year, provides even more details on how CDCR and the state should be closing prisons and transitioning communities.
- Liz Blum
Person
We need the state to prioritize a Just Transition Plan to transition the State of California and prison towns to green jobs, to jobs that are not extractive and harmful.
- Liz Blum
Person
We need to be moving away from a prison economy in California. So just briefly, to wrap up, we sincerely hope that you'll follow the peoples' plan for prison closure, prioritize intentional conversations directly with impacted people, and implement their guidance.
- Liz Blum
Person
And we look forward to working with you to close more prisons in California in a way that promotes economic, environmental and racial justice. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. That was perfect. 1 minute, 59 seconds. Okay, we are now on Metoos. Hello. Welcome.
- Wajuba McDuffy
Person
How are you doing, Committee? My name is Wajuba McDuffy. I represent the Anti-Recidivism Coalition. I'm a life coach for CSP Stack, and I fully support secretary Macomber. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Willie Woods
Person
Yes. Good evening, everyone. My name is Willie Woods. I am a life coach for ARC, Anti-Recidivism Coalition, and I support Mr. Macomber. Also, I am a facilitator for criminal gang anonymous in Solomon prison. Thank you very much.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness, please.
- Candice Lewis
Person
Hello, good afternoon. My name is Candice Lewis and I am also a life coach for the Anti-Recidivism Coalition. My primary prison is CCTRP and I am in full support of Mr. Jeffrey Macomber.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Gary Burt
Person
Hello, my name is Gary Burt. I am a life coach with the Anti-Recidivism Coalition. I'm assigned to Folsom State Prison and I'm in full support of Jeffrey Macomber.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much. Next witness.
- Danielle Sanchez
Person
Good afternoon, Chair and Members. Danielle Sanchez, on behalf of the Chief Probation Officers of California, in strong support of the Secretary's appointment. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Other witnesses in support. Okay, now we're going to move to witnesses in opposition. Witnesses in opposition. If you are here in opposition.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay. Bad timing on standing up and walking out. You're good. You're good. She should go into film. Okay. With that, we've had people who have spoken with concerns and those in support. We are now going to go to the phone lines. And when Mr. Samuel Lewis comes up, he gets two minutes. Otherwise, everyone else who wishes to speak in support or in opposition, your name, your organization, you support and your I support or I oppose. And that's it. With that, I'm going to welcome our moderator.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Good afternoon.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Good afternoon. And we are prepared to go if you want to tee people up to speak in support or opposition.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Thanks much, Madam Chair. And as she said, if you are in support or opposition on today's agenda, please press one followed by zero. One followed by zero. And we'll begin with line 252. Please go ahead.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Welcome.
- Hien Nguyen
Person
My name is Hien. I'm a resident of Phoenix City and.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Ma'am, we can't hear you.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Okay, Madam Chair, we have a really bad feedback. Is there two microphones close to each other?
- Toni Atkins
Person
Let me ask Mike. I'm the only one with a mic on here, I think. Okay, let's try one more time. Go ahead.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Testing one two.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay, ma'am, go ahead.
- Hien Nguyen
Person
Hi, my name is Hien Nguyen. I work with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee in Oakland. And I just want to call with concern.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Support or opposition? Support or opposition? I'm only taking your comment, not comments. Just, do you support, you oppose or you just have concerns, but you can't go further than that?
- Hien Nguyen
Person
Yes, with concerns.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay, thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Next witness, Mr. Moderator.
- Committee Moderator
Person
We'll go to line 276, please. Go ahead.
- Yolanda Navarrete
Person
Hello, this is Yolanda Navaretti with DROP LWOP, Families United to End LWOP and Felony Murder Elimination Project. I personally know Mr. Buckhamber, and I support.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much. Next witness.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Line 270, you are open.
- Yesica Cambero
Person
Hi, my name is Yesica, and I work for ARC, the Anti Recidivism Coalition. I'm a life coach at CIW, and I am in support.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. Thank you, Yesica. Next witness.
- Committee Moderator
Person
267, you are open.
- Sam Lewis
Person
Good afternoon. Thank you, Madam Chair of the Rules Committee and Members of the Rules Committee. My name is Sam Lewis, and I'm the Executive Director of ARC, the Anti Recidivism Coalition. I'm also a former life prisoner. I spent total of 24 years in prison at a time when the Department of Correction didn't really have rehabilitative program. Now we run multiple programs within the Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. And we see people come home every day, such as the life coaches that are in your audience.
- Sam Lewis
Person
I'm in strong support of Secretary Macomber's confirmation as both the individual and as the Executive Director of an organization that employs over 90 formerly incarcerated people. This support is based on Mr. Macomber's support of rehabilitation and the implementation of the Norwegian or Scandinavian model prisons. These models which I've been able to visit and see.
- Sam Lewis
Person
If we implement them correctly and we have the supportive leadership, such as the Governor and Secretary Macomber, and wardens and the Correctional Peace Officers Association leadership, and create a safer system both for the people that are incarcerated and for the staff that work in the Department of Corrections. I want to reiterate one more time that I'm in strong support of the confirmation for Secretary Macomber, and I thank you for your time and opportunity to be able to share this.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Mr. Lewis. Thank you so much. Speakers going forward will go back to saying support or oppose name and organization, if any. Thank you so much. Go. Next witness, please.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Thank you, Madam Chair. And we'll move on to line 265, please. Go ahead.
- Jacob Brevard
Person
Hi, my name is Jacob. Hi, my name is Jacob Brevard. I'm with the Anti Recidivism Coalition and I'm in strong support of the Secretary.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much. Next witness.
- Committee Moderator
Person
We'll go to line 231. Please go ahead.
- David Garnica
Person
Good afternoon. My name is David Garnika. I'm a senior life coach with the Anti Recidivism Coalition and I facilitate in Corcoran and I am in complete support of Mr. Macomber's Confirmation. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much. Next witness.
- Committee Moderator
Person
216, you are open. 216, I will move on to line 277. Please go ahead.
- Joanne Scheer
Person
Hello, my name is Joanne Scheer and on behalf of myself and my son, we are in strong support. On behalf of Felony Murder Elimination Project, we're in strong support. I personally worked with Mr. Macomber. A man of integrity.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much. Thank you. Next witness.
- Committee Moderator
Person
228, you are open.
- Lorin Dowdy
Person
Hi, my name is Lorin Dowdy, a member of the Anti Recidivism Coalition in support of Jeffrey Macomber's confirmation as Secretary of CDCR.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. Next witness.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Line 216, please. Go ahead. 216, you are open. I will move on and I will go to line 225 for anybody else going at one zero if you would like to queue up at this time. One moment Madam Chair. Thank you. We apologize. The specialist that's giving the line numbers will get somebody else on. He's having a computer problem. We'll be right with you. Please bear with us that we have four or five queued up.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Okay, thank you.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Computer stop. I'll be right there. Thank you. Okay, we did find somebody already and it'll be with you in one moment, please. Sorry about that.
- Toni Atkins
Person
It's all good.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Line 238, you are open.
- Alfonso Garcia
Person
Hello, my name is Alfonso Garcia. I am on the Hope and Redemption Team for the Anti Recidivism Coalition. I'm a life coach at CIM, and I fully support Jeffrey Macomber.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Next witness, please.
- Committee Moderator
Person
We will go to line. One moment there with the operator. 232. Please go ahead, 232.
- Anthony Romero
Person
Hello?
- Toni Atkins
Person
Hello. Go ahead.
- Committee Moderator
Person
You're all good.
- Anthony Romero
Person
Hello, my name is Anthony Romero. I am a life coach at Calipatria State Prison for Anti Recidivism Coalition, and I am in support of Jeffrey Macombers.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much. Next witness.
- Committee Moderator
Person
And we'll go to line 229. You are open.
- Olivia Gleason
Person
Hi, my name is Olivia Gleason. I'm a Member of California United for a Responsible Budget, CURB, and I'm calling a neutral position with some concern.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you for expressing that. Next witness, please.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Madam Chair, we did clear the queue.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much, Mr. Moderator. We'll be back with you shortly. Okay, colleagues. Madam Vice Chair has moved the confirmation. Before we call the roll. Secretary, thank you so much for your time today. Obviously, you heard some concerns expressed, and we'll take that back. Hopefully, staff will follow up with a letter on a couple of items that you are going to get back to us on, and we will get that to you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
But I appreciate all of the people who spoke today with support, with opposition, and with concerns expressed. We will take that as a Committee to heart and we will follow up with the Secretary. We have his commitment to meet with us on a fairly regular basis because this is a really important appointment and we appreciate the time. And thank you for the motion. Madam Secretary, will you now call the roll?
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll call]. Five to zero.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Five to zero. Thank you. We will move this to the full Senate for confirmation. And we appreciate your time today. Thank you, everyone. We're going to take about a five to 10 minute break, and we'll be right back and set up for the next one. Congratulations. Congratulations.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I think we lost our conferee. That's because of Senators roaming all over the place. We lost our conferee. Well, at least we have everybody's attention. You're good. You're good, Mr. Knox. Well, welcome. Under our next Governor's appointee required to appear, we have the appointment of Stewart C. Knox as Secretary of Labor and Workforce Development Agency. And while we had only two today, usually--but these are big appointments, so we knew it would take a little bit of time. We want to thank you for your patience.
- Toni Atkins
Person
So let me welcome you and invite you to do the same, and that is introduce anyone you brought with you today that you'd like to acknowledge or thank, and then you can go ahead and go to your opening statement or comments and then right to us, and we'll start off questions and comments. Welcome.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate it. I brought Anthony, which has been my partner for almost 13 and a half years now. For over 13 and a half years, he's dealt with all of my crazy jobs and my life in terms of working way too many hours, as we all know we do in these jobs. And so I appreciate him being here. The whole team, I think, is practically here today behind me, which I super appreciate. Yes.
- Stewart Knox
Person
So there's too many folks for being able to probably go through all the names at this point, but super excited to have the whole team here with me today from all of our multiple departments, divisions, boards, and panel. Since I was the former panel director, I better say that. And so thank you for that.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And that's kind of the team approach that I build traditionally from with the work I do. A little bit about me, and I just kind of wanted to put that out there just because I think the work itself is so important and it's very personal to me. And the reason I say that it's personal to me is because I have 29 years of doing this job in one way or another. I think it's built to become the secretary.
- Stewart Knox
Person
20 years I worked at the local level, and I really enjoyed being at the local level, running workforce and economic development programs primarily. I worked in the far north, I worked coming out of the timber industry, folks that had lost jobs based on the demise of the timber industry back in the 1990s, and I taught GED to these folks. A good number of people had good, well-paying jobs. They were union jobs, and they lost those jobs.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so, it was my first opportunity to interact with people that had lost employment, good, well-paying employment. And so I taught GED. So it was my first couple years that I really got to know the population and really understand how I could serve the population in the future. From that point forward, I worked in the agriculture community. I worked in the Colusa County area. I worked for the community college district and our community college chancellor, our new chancellor is here today, too, by the way.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I should mention that. She's great. And so with that, we had an opportunity with the agriculture community to really start to see how we could change people's lives in Ag, whether it was changing technology. This was the early 90s. It was changing back then. It is changing even more drastically today.
- Stewart Knox
Person
How we could actually involve their whole family and actually design systems for the whole family approach for the Ag community workers, and how we could bring worker rights and information to them and develop strategies to either have them continue within that Ag community with a higher paying wage, knowing their rights, but also bringing them to other jobs and opportunities within their future, and also working with second-gen kids within the Ag industry to be able to have opportunities for the college and for UCs and our state universities.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so I think from that perspective, I really started to grow around what was next. What could we do better in California? What we could really develop and have strategies for California? And from that point forward, I even worked in an urban area; I was in the LA area for a while, and we saw the demise of an industry: Kodak. Remember Kodak cameras? Kodak had a major presence in the LA area at the time. iPhone came out. Gone. That industry basically almost died.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so we saw those workers who lost their jobs, and once again, I was in that dislocated worker moment of trying to help and assist and move people into better employment. And so from that point forward, I really started to see that, one: we could do the work so much better and still continue to serve our communities. But how do we do this in partnerships? And so that's where I think, really, we started to think about community-based organizations.
- Stewart Knox
Person
How do we develop partnerships with our community college system? Because the workforce system alone can't do it all, and it shouldn't. And so that's when we started to really develop deep partnerships within the system. Later was Health and Human Services Director. That is a really complicated system. Really started to understand the Independent Living Program for foster care youth, and how could we do work better for ILP kids? How do we develop strategies for these ILP kids so that they aren't left behind?
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so all of those opportunities, I think, has just chose my 29 years in my career, and I should bring up ETP. I was a Brown appointee as well as Mr. Laird, Senator Laird for five years, and there really was working with unions, working with joint apprenticeship training councils. Really worked with employer groups and developing strategies to make sure that those incumbent workers, primarily incumbent workers, were actually achieving higher wages.
- Stewart Knox
Person
They knew the rights within those wages and they started to develop strategies with--it's about a one hundred million dollar program. Most people don't know how big ETP kind of is. It's the largest in the nation for incumbent workforce. And so that program really started to develop my strategy around policy and then became the Undersecretary in the Newsom Administration, and here I am today.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so I'm proud to just kind of share that history and a little bit of my story of my background and also just, again, to acknowledge the team that's behind me is just, without them, I wouldn't be here. But also recognizing we've had a lot of obstacles in the last three years, as we all know. We've all taken those obstacles, worked harder, and I think for the future that's--learned our lessons moving forward at this point. So with that, I'll welcome questions.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Appreciate those opening comments and your partner for being here, as well as your team. Madam Vice Chair, how about I start with you?
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think she started with me because in the real world, I've been an employer for 30 years and I've dealt with EDD from way before you, I think, and issues that come into play. How familiar are you with the--thank you for being here, and thank you for the introduction of your partner and the team and specifically mentioning my constituent, the chancellor.
- Stewart Knox
Person
We're bringing her up here, though.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Yes, you are. Thank you for mentioning Sonya. How familiar are you with the Private Attorney General Act?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Fairly. Yes. PAGA, yes.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Is there enough staff that you think that you have in the DWA PAGA unit facility to review these cases? I know that before they were just rampant settlement cases that didn't get any review. I appreciate the legislation that allowed review. I caught that eyeball. The court reporter; I have to slow down my conversation.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Oh, you got it. Okay.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I appreciate the Legislature passing a piece of legislation that there is at least DIR or LWDA review of settlements, where again, Governor Brown's Administration just before he left put together this PAGA legislation that allows frivolous litigation. And to me, it's frivolous, and the reason why I say that is because I track those cases.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
They're 60 to 80 cases a day, every single day, five days a week, with the exception of holidays filed. Most of these cases if you track them, have a multiple lead litigant or an enhanced employee who gets additional dollars for bringing the case prior to legislation being passed where you or your department reviewed these settlement cases. The employer would pay out millions and millions of dollars.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I know of one settlement of 5.2 million dollars where the employees got less than 16 dollars each, and the attorneys walked away with a little over four and a half million dollars. So I'm glad that that process has changed a little, but do you feel that you have the adequate staff in that PAGA review department to review those cases? Because in 2016, it was less than one percent.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah. We do not have a large staff on that, so that's just the upfront answer to that. Part of, as you know, the law was really designed so that the private attorneys would take on the cases on behalf of Labor Agency and the Labor Commissioner's Office in a way that would mitigate the workload that would be currently within those offices to do that work. So that is the short answer of that.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Also, know there's a proposition that will be up for ballot in 2024, and so look forward to working with the Legislature really to think through whatever changes or moves that need to be made to improve the PAGA structure. Happy to do that.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Thank you. It is a very lucrative business for attorneys because of the two-party settlement process, right? There's harm and then there's penalty. And even though a judge can deem that there was no harm, that the employee never was absent wages, absent time paid, absent accurate wages, any of that stuff, the big issue that they nail you on is the wage statement. For instance, if you pay every week and you have week ending seven one, that is a violation of the PAGA Act.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
And even though the employee was not harmed, there was a 50 dollar penalty for every paycheck issued going back four years or a maximum penalty of 4,000 dollars per employee. So even somebody with 50 employees, a small business with 50 employees going back four years, and they paid weekly, that's 50 dollars per 50 employees times 52 years times four years. And even though the judge would deem there's no harm on the liability piece, the penalty phase stands.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
It's the highest penalty in any type of employment law that we have, and it also is the highest penalty in the nation. If you just look at an issue where--if an employer--let's just say an employee loses 22 dollars over a period of time, whether it's a dollar an hour and then they catch the fact that they didn't pay them correctly, if it's over a period of longer than three weeks, that penalty is 67,500 dollars for a 22 dollar error.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
For Labor Code Section 226 or nine items specifically that have to go on a wage statement or they're considered an inaccurate wage statement, it has to be specific, like the word 'two' between the week ending and a week beginning and week ending dates. Or it's a 50 dollar penalty per paycheck for employee going back four years. The problem that you have with that is, like I said, it's just extortion, right?
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
You have to settle because the penalties are so high, and then the settlement gets a paid enhanced employee. And there are multiple employees that have enhancements that go from company to company. And there's just a few of these bad actors of attorneys, which you call private attorneys, that take advantage of this situation. The Attorney General is a constitutional and elected officer of the state, and these private attorneys are not.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
And I realize that you guys put that--that was out there so that it could reduce your guys' workload, but it is severely being taken advantage of. And so I would appreciate your thoughts on improving that, making it to where employees that are having wage theft and employees that are having issues with employers, that should be addressed, and employers should be, I would say, punished for what they've done.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
But when you have minor infractions on a paycheck stub and there's no ill will to charge somebody two million dollars because one of the other times is that they didn't break out meal and rest periods, which is required now. Some companies--we have small companies that we represent--they don't follow all those things. They don't understand that the law changes every few months, that they have to make amendments to their paycheck stub. And that's the biggest violation.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Again, no harm to the employee because they've been paid accurate wages, but there's an inaccurate item on their paycheck stub that creates no harm to the employee. I hope I can make that clear. Okay. Sorry.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And I do look forward to working with the Legislature and also understanding that there will be a proposition in 2024.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Yes, I hope so. It's been far too long. I know that you're not responsible for a lot of the systemic failures that EDD has had in the past, and I know that the previous secretaries have addressed some of those failures. I know that we learned a lot during Covid and I know that the new systems, the double check systems on issuing Unemployment Insurance benefits, making sure that people in prison that aren't entitled to it--I'm talking about the scams, not people that are in prison that just went there and were working before they went there and are entitled to those benefits.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
So I'm not even going to go into all that. But I do want to go into the issue that in your written response in the Rules Committee and what you said in your opening statement is that you have been involved.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I wasn't aware of the issue in Los Angeles with the Kodak situation when the iPhones came out or phones came out. I was aware of you being involved in the timber industry up in the northern part of the state. This Governor--and I think some of my colleagues in the Legislature are hell bent to close down and shut down the oil industry which employs a little over 100,000 people, representing 70 percent of the state's oil. I don't need another Amazon that pays minimum wage.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
No offense against Amazon. We have property, so they build large facilities. I need those people to make 85 to 150,000 dollars a year starting because that's what they make now. And 30 percent of them are second chancers, 55 percent of them are people of color, 17 percent are veterans, and 12 percent are women. And that is a very diverse workforce.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I have people from Los Angeles on parole where we get permission from noncontiguous counties for coming into a situation where you have to have permission to go from one county, jump over another county if you're on parole. So we file that paperwork all the time because they come from Los Angeles and other areas to get a job where they can provide for their families and not go back to the prison system. What are your thoughts?
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I mean, I don't think they can shut down the oil industry because I don't think anybody can live without it. But if they're successful, where are these people going to work?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Sure. Yeah. No, it's a great question, and I think it's an important one, especially in the workforce and working with our unions as well because many of these jobs, as you know, are union jobs. So what I would say about the timber industry, which was a different time in a different setting, this is about 1993, 1994, and it was a federal action that took place that actually reduced the number of timber acreage within the north state. There was within probably, I would say, months, the closures of larger plants. This was through Pacific Industries, Louisiana-Pacific Industries. These were large.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Are you good? Can you hear?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah. Oh, sure. Of course. Sorry. Yeah. I do speak really fast, usually. Yeah.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
That's okay. I always get that hairy eyeball.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I'll look for the eye.
- Toni Atkins
Person
The two of you together.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I know, dangerous for her. So I recognize absolutely the issues. What I would say some of the differences are that what we've experienced over the last 20 years has really learned some lessons around how to do better economic development and better workforce development programs in many of those instances.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I think the off ramps, what I would call off ramps to this, if, in fact, by 2035, the reduction of the fuel takes place during that period of time--still slower--will give us time to mitigate the risk to many of those workers, one, by doing some retraining, obviously now looking for other industries that we can develop strategies within those local communities.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And I know Mr. Macomber, Secretary Macomber also was asking kind of the same question about the Susan Bill and other closures within the state, but how we can utilize the state's power behind developing strategies with our local communities. So we have multiple factors, one of which, in funding sources, we have rapid response funds which is typically administered through our workforce services branch through EDD, that we develop strategies with the local workforce boards to do industry sector strategy.
- Stewart Knox
Person
We can also work with the local communities, so the cities and the counties, to develop strategies of what those communities could look like based on any closure. Again, it could be prison closure, it could be oil industry closures. In addition to that, the Governor and approved by the Legislature, committed 600 million dollars in the Community Economic Resilience Funds this last year, a year and a half ago now.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Those funds are going to be--they have been released to the 13 regions, and a good portion of those funds are specifically for these purposes. What other industry moves are we going to see, such as a Lithium Valley or other places that we can actually see where new industries can grow and develop? I know in the current area, I've spoke with Sonya Christian while she was still president at the college there.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Talking about the Ag industry was, in terms of the climate changes that we're seeing, and so with the drought, how we have too much water--the way it goes sometimes--but how do we develop for Ag, for oil, for the prison closures? What would those strategies look like? And again, to me, it's working with our community-based organizations. It's working with the cities and counties. We bring in contractors, typically, to actually do studies to see what the development phases could look like.
- Stewart Knox
Person
What would that look like over time? I was in Fresno last week at an Ag tech event. What can their economy change to and look like based on developing with the community's input? So that's, I know, kind of a long answer to probably a much more complicated question. Because I went through those processes in both areas, being in Southern California and in Northern California, I have a good understanding of, I think--oh, I have CALED here too, as well, by the way.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Gearbox is here from California, it looks like, an iPhone corporation. Working with these industries, in these organizations, I think that's the phase for which we're trying to be better and different than we were in the past. We as a state are here to listen and to work with those local communities rather than top down approach.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
I appreciate that, and I appreciate the fact that you're even looking at it and that you did visit the Central Valley because we have the top three food producing counties in the world, and we produce 75 percent of the state's oil and 53 percent of the state's renewable energy. So we're diverse and we have a lot of our industries. Ignore the former secretary. It's my time. We're disproportionately affected, especially when you mess with our food and our energy. We are extremely, disproportionately affected, and we are left behind.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
And as Ms. Christianson can tell you--or excuse me--the chancellor can tell you, we have a higher disproportionate of low socioeconomic disadvantaged community because we have a lot of farm workers that produce the food that we eat, and then, of course, the attack on our oil industry. The UI fund is severely underfunded.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Severely underfunded. Employers just came out of Covid. If there isn't some type of, I don't know, if there isn't some type of allocation from this year's budget for employers, it's going to average almost 500 dollars per employee for every employer. 420 to 500 dollars depending on how it's calculated. If it's only on the people who are in the first 7,000 or after, if it's an issue on the number of W-2s.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
It makes a big difference if somebody works two days and then they quit or disappear and they get a W-2 because they work two days and they still have to pay the 500 dollars or did they earn the first 7,000 dollars and then it's on those employees? What kind of impacts or mitigation measures are you guys looking at to mitigate that damage?
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
If there isn't some type of funding from the state Legislature on the budget process for the payback of the UI fund when it was not the employer's response--the employers did not cause that mess and they're going to be required to pay for it. And it's not like there's an adequate payback program or loan program or anything like that. It's December 31st. The year ends January 10th. You owe this 625,000 dollars or you get a 10 percent penalty every single day that you don't pay it.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
That's how that program works. So what's your thoughts of addressing and mitigating the damage that's going to cause to employers, job creators that are just coming out of Covid?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah, absolutely. In terms of--the payback is what we've experienced in the Great Recession. It's the same design system, it's in legislation, it is the FUTA tax, which is the 21 dollars per, which increases, to your point, every year up until paid for. And so that's 21 dollars per year per employee up until paid for. Current estimates are kind of all over the place in terms of how long this is going to take to pay down. It's currently close to 19 billion dollars, as you know.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I will say there is always, and even in my head, I get confused on what was close to the 20 plus billion dollars in fraud, and then there's the 19 billion dollars which is the UI Trust Fund insolvency. I will say that the PUA, Pandemic Unemployment Assistance, that's where 95 percent of all the fraud happens. So if you're kind of--I think if we're talking about the fraud issue a little bit, 95 percent of that was the fraud issue. That was actually paid. Everything we get back on that has to go back to the feds.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Right.
- Stewart Knox
Person
So that's separate from the UI Trust Fund. Anything that's returned from--in the fraud case side is about five percent. That also goes back to the UI Trust Fund. So that's kind of a separation of the two, but without any changes, basically, it is exactly what we experienced from 2008 all the way through 2019. Was a payback period, and that's how the tax works.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
So for the FUTA tax reduction credit will be provided by employers, even though, again, the EDD fund or the Unemployment Insurance Fund is 100 percent employer funded with no employee contribution. There was a severe overpayment because of the pandemic. That was not--we were told by this Governor you were essential or you were not essential and benefits were provided, right? So now employers are responsible for the payback of that. And you're telling me right now that there's no way to mitigate that?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Minus a legislative change, there is no way to mitigate that. Now, the interest that is paid by the state, as you know, the interest is paid by the state, but the actual principal is paid by the employer's tax.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
All right. Thank you, sir.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Senator Laird.
- John Laird
Legislator
Thank you very much. And I was smiling because I think she left off that if Kern County were its own state, it would be the fourth largest oil producing state in the United States. So she stopped short in her speech. Let me thank you for us meeting together, and it's great that you have your family and your team here, even Terry Brennan.
- John Laird
Legislator
And you answered my first question in your opening statement because I was going to ask, sort of, what life experience from growing up on a ranch did you bring to your work? And you just answered that straight away in being able to transfer it to employment and training, and so you have the support, and I suspect it's as much personal as work from the chancellor and the current president. Let me then pivot, because when I was a community college trustee, the college was really entrepreneurial.
- John Laird
Legislator
One time, people were undertrained in human services, and a class was delivered in the Department of Social Services where people could come and do it, went out to the fields and did certain things with agriculture, and delivered classes there. How do you coordinate? Because normally, although we seem to not have the same cycles, economically, when there's a big economic downturn, community college enrollment used to go up because people would come for retraining.
- John Laird
Legislator
How do you coordinate with your agency in a public agency and somebody who does that to make sure that you're all working together and just trying to maximize what you can do?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah, it's a great question, and I think it's an important one, and that's why I'm so thrilled that Sonya is our new chancellor because I think the opportunity to coordinate together is just amazing. I've saw her work for the last few years and had the opportunity to go down there and meet with the chancellor and really start to think about how we could better coordinate at our level. We've done a lot of that over the years, as you probably know, Senator, in one way or another.
- Stewart Knox
Person
But I think the time is now that we actually start to look at, especially student population is down, as we know, in terms of the community colleges, and I think there's an opportunity for us to work at a much higher level with them. The apprenticeship training programs are so important and valid, and we all know how great those programs are. There is the RSI, the Related Supplemental Instruction side of that of the house which goes through the community colleges to the JATCs.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I think we could look at a broader scope for the way that we're running the new Apprenticeship Innovation Fund that's under the Labor Agency and Division of Apprenticeship Standards. So I think there's an opportunity to work with the community colleges to develop strategies for that. I think that their connections to the employers, especially through their community-based education programs--or the contract ed, I should say. Contract ed.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I'm dating myself back into the old systems. Contract ed systems, which we have today--and a good friend of mine from 27 years, I believe, is here today that runs one in Butte College--is really the answer because we have to have the employer engagement.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so if we can start to develop strategies moving forward, as the chancellor and I have talked about recently, I think there's tons of opportunity, one, to grow the student population, especially underserved populations that we have seen that either don't think they have access points to either the community college or workforce development, and our workforce development boards.
- Stewart Knox
Person
We have 45 boards throughout the State of California--is having those be the feeders into the community college system would be core and key for us to do that work. They are the vendor of choice. There's all kinds of federal legislation that prevents some of it a little bit, to be honest. It's very detailed. This is my world. So you asked the question. It's an eligible training provider.
- John Laird
Legislator
You only veered toward an acronym once.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I know. I'm trying to stay away from them because I know you're fitting to those. I agree. So that's, I think, core to the values of what the chancellor and I see for the system. I mean, the one thing that growing up on a ranch and understanding from a grandmother who did not graduate high school, how core it was to get an education or training.
- Stewart Knox
Person
She didn't say you had to have a four-year degree or a six-year or a seven-year degree, but you had to have some skilled training. And so I think that's core to my values, to develop those strategies. Working for the community college system for seven years also instilled into me that we could do things different and better, and I know this chancellor feels the same way.
- John Laird
Legislator
Well, when she's ready to work with you and the Education Budget Subcommittee Chair, I'll be ready to do it.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Well, that's a great invitation.
- John Laird
Legislator
And then I want to ask you the question that I asked the previous candidate that we did talk about. You have at least seven disparate agencies within your own purview. How do you keep on top of it and make sure that they're actually swimming the same way as you, and that you are not surprised by anything that's going on there? How do you--clearly something must be working because half of them showed up here--but how do you do that to be successful?
- Stewart Knox
Person
I love that question because you said there was no wrong answer either, so I knew I wouldn't have a wrong answer on this one.
- John Laird
Legislator
I was not speaking for some of the others.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I'll wait to hear more later. Yeah, my answer was going to be, I think they all have my cell number. They literally all do have my cell number. I think the opportunity being the undersecretary, the undersecretary role is so key to the organization, as you know. Having the ears and the communication of the whole agency is really core to that. As the secretary, I would continue to have that lead of communication.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Working with my new undersecretary, I think is also known today, is developing the strategy on communication. What we've found, and especially with Covid and what happened at the time, is there are lines of communication and all the protocols and everything that we do, but there's a core number of us, which is my seven direct reports essentially under the agency. We all communicate on a weekly basis, regardless of what's taking place. And so there's a weekly communications meeting that takes place in one place or another.
- Stewart Knox
Person
But again, we do have an open line of communications. No surprises, to your point. That should never happen. And even the level of communication sometimes where you're like, I don't need to know that--I do need to know that. I may get a question from a Senator at some point. And so just keeping that all core to what we do, and you're right, my team is amazing. And so they've all got my cell.
- John Laird
Legislator
Well, that's your problem. Last quick question to follow up on Senator Groves. The Unemployment Insurance Fund is not scheduled to be in balance for I don't know how many years, eight years, seven years, whatever it is, and it's something that's not necessarily within your purview of having decided it was legislative.
- John Laird
Legislator
And yet how do you monitor it in a way that if it turns out we're going to get set back or something needs to be changed, you communicate with the Legislature or you work with us to take whatever action is necessary to deal with what you're sensing that we don't know yet?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah. It's a really good point, and I think--I work with Nancy's team at EDD, of course, and Tad and Caleb, which you guys have all met before because they've been in a lot of hearings with you. I usually get to watch those instead of being in front of you. All that line of communication, we look at those, as you know, every six months and start to see the trends for what's happening because to Senator Grove's point, there's so many factors that actually can affect it.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Rising unemployment rate, number of employees employed, number of employees' hours change, all of that are changes within the factors of that. So Nancy's team really does a really great job of us looking at what that looks like over time.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so as we start to see any major issues coming forward, we would love to work with the Legislature to bring back and with our Administration of course, recommendations of what could potentially be either a really bad day for all of us or a better day for all of us. And we'll hope for the latter, but absolutely, we look at all the trends.
- John Laird
Legislator
Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Senator Ochoa Bogh.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
Thank you. Such a pleasure, and I just want to give a little shout out to one of my favorite people that I've spoken to and met since I've been here: Nancy Farias. Glad to know you guys are coordinated. I guess there would be a close connection between the two of you, and I remember we had such a really good connection and conversation when we met, Nancy. I appreciate that, and I look forward. Glad to know you folks because I really liked him, too.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
I have to say, everyone I've met thus far, as far as the nominees have been, really, we've had such great conversations and I really appreciate everyone's willingness to answer questions, even when they might be a little tough. But I always do it, I hope, in the most heartfelt way as my concerns are for California as a whole. So I know we spoke with regards to the Senator Glazer's state audit request to review the Labor Commissioner's wage theft unit.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
And just for the record, the audit was approved in March, but the start date was delayed until September. So if you wouldn't mind just sharing with us some of the--basically your plan of action as to what you plan to address and where we are in that process.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Sure. Absolutely. Thank you. And your concerns and our concerns and working with the concerns with the Labor Commissioner who is also here today are all of our concerns. We want to make sure we do better. And so to do that, one is addressing the hiring needs, and so working with our folks at DIR, Department of Industrial Relations--Katie is here today, their HR unit. Yeah, Katie is there. Katie is the Head of DIR Director. And so, we have evaluated what those HR practices are.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And as you also know, we lost delegation in 2018, 2019 for DIR in the last Administration. And so there was two years basically--there was basically no hires done, and so we basically depleted the department in many ways. As you also know, the vacancy rate is around 27 percent. The Labor Commissioner's Office is even a little bit higher than that. So one is a staffing issue.
- Stewart Knox
Person
So one of the ways we're trying to address that is increasing the number of employees, increasing the number of trained individuals, but there was a technology piece to this and we talked a little bit yesterday about this and the day before. Also Covid happened at the time for which they got their hiring delegation or about the time that the hiring delegation was coming back, and so to be able to hire people was also a complicated issue for everybody that was involved in that.
- Stewart Knox
Person
But we also pivoted to an online system at the time. We had to, right? There was no more in person communication and so we pivoted to an online system. The online system was built too broadly, to be honest. The questions were not narrow enough. It takes almost about 50 percent more time to determine a case based on the way that the system is built. So we're in the midst of doing basically a business process reengineering of that system.
- Stewart Knox
Person
So we're going through a BPR and that system to hone it in so that those workers that are there working aren't spending so much extra time trying to figure out what the case really even is. So we're working on that. We look forward to actually working with the CSA Audit. We have, you know, this is not a bad thing in my opinion. EDD's been through three of them, I think, in the last few years.
- Stewart Knox
Person
There were a lot of good recommendations that came out of the CSA Audit, and we look forward to working with the Senators and Assembly Members in reporting back. The one thing that DIR is constantly working towards is improving their hiring practices, and so I'll continue to work with Lilia and with Katie to make sure that happens. We do meet on a biweekly basis of where their numbers are and what their challenges are.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so I will continue to do that, and look forward to working with them. But also, again, look forward to--I mean, no one likes to say they look forward to an audit, but they can be helpful.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
No, I absolutely agree. It's just the way that--I liken it to assessments and tests. People fear them. And in my opinion, it should be looked upon as a means by which where we are and where we can improve to guide in education. It would be our instruction, and in this case, it's practices and systems that we need to evolve. So I'm glad you look at it in that way as a means to improve.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
The other question I have for you had to do with my observations about policy being considered by the Legislature. I had mentioned that I had sat just for two years on the Labor Committee, and it was very enlightening. Some people fear it. I don't. I found it fascinating and I learned a lot from it.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
But some of the observations that I had that I shared with you was the fact that I saw with well-intended policy that meant to further the efforts of policy that we had not been enforcing. We know that California has one of the stringent labor laws--I'm not sure within the nation, but I know it's incredibly meticulous here in the State of California.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
And we continue to pass these labor laws in the State of California, which makes it very difficult for law-abiding goodwill employers to do their job because sometimes they don't even know that there are certain laws in place because there's just so many coming along and an effort to overcome the ones that have not been enforced. So we talked about HR. Not all businesses can afford an HR person that can make sure that everybody's doing that.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
The importance of having a grace period so that people can mitigate the places where they're falling through. So your thoughts on the laws that we're seeing because we're not enforcing and what do we need to do in order to do, to enforce what we currently have in place so that we're not duplicating efforts for exasperating or adding more laws to the books and making that book a little tougher for businesses to do business in California and the impact that that has on the cost of doing business in California.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Sure. Yeah, and I know Lilia, our Labor Commissioner, has talked about this, I think in the past as well, and, you know, love to work with the Legislature. One of the things about this is the laws are becoming more and more complex. And I think I talked about that a little bit with you the other day, too, which also takes a lot of time for our folks, attorneys, and others. It takes almost additional more time to actually enforce the law at that point because they're compacted.
- Stewart Knox
Person
There's a lot there. And so we look forward to working with the Legislature on impacts around what they would want to do around labor law. I do say, obviously, from our perspective, that these labor laws are very important and protecting workers is obviously one of our most important things that we can do in California.
- Stewart Knox
Person
So I think there is a spin to this a little bit that I would say while we have maybe some of the biggest laws around labor enforcement, I would also say we have some of the safest employees in that field as well. That said, there are outdated laws. There are laws that could have managed change over time, and we'd be happy to work with the Legislature to do that. Yeah, sure.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
It's like educating a new member.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Okay. Yeah. Well, I think in terms of the way--we do this a little bit on our side already, and you guys probably know, obviously, the process for which we look at all the labor laws that come down because obviously Labor Agency does this, DIR gets the bulk of them, Department of Industrial Relations, the Workforce Board does, ETPFU.
- Stewart Knox
Person
So those are managed at our office, and we actually make comments and we make revisions to those, and then we try to work with the authors to try to get those revisions within the law. And sometimes successful, sometimes not successful, but that's the way that it's usually managed and working with the Administration to do that as well.
- Rosilicie Ochoa Bogh
Legislator
Okay. Good to know. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Senator Smallwood-Cuevas.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you so much, Madam Chair, and...
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Okay, let me get it closer. Maybe if I get closer. Is that good?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Okay. Hello, Secretary Knotts. It's good to be here with you. Thank you for joining us and really enjoyed our conversation. Most of all, I feel like there was alignment around our understanding that you need high labor standards and you need fair wages and career path to actually uplift the workforce. And I always say, when workers do well, our communities do well. That is a proven fact. And your agency is at the core of that principle and ideal.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
So I appreciate all the work that you've done over the years and now what you will do in this role. I have a few questions, but we just had this other Department come before you. And when I looked at the pie chart in terms of how the state invests the General Fund dollars, there was a big $14 billion slice for the carceral system and for your agency, it wasn't even on the pie. It was so small. It was not on the pie at all.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And to me, that means we're upside down. It's how we're thinking about our values and what's driving what we're doing and how it's important for us to be about turning it right side up, especially when we're trying to deal with homelessness or trying to deal with health disparities or trying to deal with education gaps. At the end of it, we need more Californians to be in good jobs and higher wages at the end of the day.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And in understanding that pie chart, I was curious, why do you think it is that this agency is so wealthily funded? Why do you think that is? And I'm not going to get you in trouble?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah, don't get me in trouble.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I want to understand. Why do you think that?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah, well, I will say workforce development, typically, and I will say this Administration and this Legislature has put more money into labor agency in our departments and divisions than any other Governor or Legislature in the past 30 years that I'm aware of. So there is good news there. Even though it is still a really small piece of the pie, we still have more dollars than we've ever seen in any Administration. So we appreciate that of the Governor and the Legislature.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Typically, federal funds have funded workforce development and those federal funds, and being around for almost 30 years in the system, they have not only not kept up with time, they've actually decreased in time. And so I remember a day, God, I do sound old. I remember a day when we used to have close to $600 million of federal investments. We're down about 400-450 million. So the federal dollars continue to decrease on the training side.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And then I would add that I think core to what we need to do better, and I do have a new evaluation person, too, that works on my team, data evaluation, is I think we, as a system, need to do better about showing our progress. And I think we need to show that to Congress, obviously, but also to our Legislature and to our Governor, to be able to promote ourselves in a way that this is the effective way to move workers in the right direction.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Working with our labor unions, working with our colleges, working with our CBOs. To your point, if we're going to spend $104,000 on a person incarcerated, but we're spending less than $3,500 on a person to be trained, we have this a little bit backwards. So would love to work with you around in the future on how to do that.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Absolutely. Commit to work with you on that. Along those lines. We are sort of on the verge of this green revolution where we are transforming our industries and representing South L.A., one of the strongest California industrial corridors in the 20th century, now a shell of itself. And we have whole communities that are still reeling from the last industrial shift, de-regulation, de-unionization in that sector, and trying to rebuild on the back end the service economy with living wage laws and raising minimum wage.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And then at the same time, when we looked at this budget, there were a lot of cuts to workforce development. I'm curious, as we are looking at the benchmarks and milestones for climate resilient California 2030,2045. To what degree can your agency really insert itself in that conversation? So that we also have a mapping of workforce in terms of skills, labor codes, apprenticeships that help us meet the demand.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I'm going to share an example of an employer who came to me who said they had ordered these electric vehicles, they had paid in cash for them, they hadn't received them because there was no one to actually build them. So to me, that means our revolution is going to be in some trouble if we don't have a workforce prepared. What are your thoughts on how we center this agency in that and invest in scaling those jobs of the future?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Sure. No, it's a great question. I would say we're doing some of that work, obviously. We work across all lines, at the cabinet level, at the California Energy Commission, we work with CNRA, we work with GovOps I mean, we do spread the range between the Jobs act funding that is coming down, and so really looking at those opportunities to develop training. I heard the same comments from the busing industry, the bus industry, as they've gone to electric buses, that there's no one to work on those electric buses.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so how do we develop strategies to make sure that those people are trained to be able to do that work? We are working with the Administration, and we will be working with the Legislature on coming up with ways to actually better fund this in the future, utilizing some of those federal funds, possibly to be able to move us forward, to be able to develop a strategy so we have ongoing resources and money that would be able to assist through the labor agency in our Department.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I appreciate that. And, Madam Chair, just indulge me for one more question. This has to do with how do we center all workers in the opportunity of good jobs? And we've spent some time before, even in the Legislature, talking about this community partnership piece, and how do we reach those historically marginalized populations, historically underrepresented, and frankly, whole populations has just been left out of industries. And I think about women in construction, for example, as an example of that.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And I know you have been directed to create an Advisory Committee July of 2023 that will make recommendations that advance women in the construction trades. I know this will include unions. It'll include workforce development folks. Are you thinking about community partners as part of that? And how are you putting that group of lists of stakeholders together?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah, absolutely. And we did just release the $25 million from the two previous years that was invested by the Legislature, thank you, for the women in construction grants. And so those are now just pushed out, have been put out, and community-based organizations are a part of the groups that are a part of that, with the labor unions and other entities to be able to serve in that nature.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And this was very specific, while it doesn't necessarily have to be women, but it was really specific around people with children that need childcare. And so listening to community-based organizations, really starting to hear, why is there so less or few women within the industries? And so much of the conversation was around childcare. And so that's how we actually designed that through Department of Industrial Relations, and that's how the money was put out. And this was listening to community-based organizations.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I think one thing I was going to say, too, is, as you and I talked about it the other day, is really one of the key components for us that we learned from was through Covid and our worker outreach program. Right. And how much that we now depend kind of on these CPOs in a good way with this reciprocal information exchange.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And when the flooding happened throughout the valley, we were able to pivot to these community-based organizations that we had either under some contracts or through the Sierra Health foundation contracts or UC Davis to be able mobilize resources, but also mostly communication. And I think how core that is.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And I did have an opportunity to go down to the Fresno area the week before and meet with also 11 different community-based organizations that actually serve the migrant seasonal farm worker populations and ag workers and try to develop and listen to and figure out what their biggest need was, which on that side was housing.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Yeah. And I appreciate you mentioning the CWAP project. Many in my district very aware of that initiative and particularly those temp workers, workers who float between unemployment and low wage work, very hard to reach in terms of what their rights are. CWAP was a lifesaver in making sure that they understood the changing nature of their protections and also how to address problems on the job.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
My hope and want to continue to work with the idea of continuing that program, really transitioning it from a Covid, but to a long-standing program that does continue to build a level of education and information for workers, particularly those who are hard to reach. I really am excited about this idea of community centers, increasing the footprint of the agency in those locations where workers have hard time accessing the Department.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And my last question is, along those lines of those hard to reach workers, hard to get them connected to good and strong opportunities, is what is your partnership, particularly around this issue of equal pay and this issue of ensuring compliance around local hire and federal project and worker participation? What is your relationship in terms of the enforcement of those things? Because I think those are tools that ensure we do have a representative workforce in good careers.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Do you work with the Civil Rights Department on this, and how can you deepen your relationship? Because I think there's confusion for workers in terms of, well, who's enforcing equal pay, who's enforcing employment discrimination? What are the ways in which you all are working together to do that and accomplish that?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah, it's a great question. And as you and I talked a couple of days ago about this, the relationship is very good, actually, between Mr. Kish's office, as we call him, Kish, instead of Kevin, but Kish's office with CRD, Civil Rights Department. But there is confusion, to your point, out there in the community, of what entity do we go to? Our Labor Commissioner, Lilia works with their offices directly. I liked your idea of thinking about an MOU and developing even a strategy around this.
- Stewart Knox
Person
I know that they do work together in ways that there are strategies, especially in some cases so that the worker actually gets more dollars back, especially in the cases where we may have claimants trying to get to a place where they're getting to a settlement that wasn't quite as much as it could be. And I know that CRD worked with our Labor Commissioner's office to do that. But I like your recommendation. I look forward to working with them and we'll follow up with them.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you for answering these questions and more importantly, for making a difference in the lives of workers. I'm very familiar with the Labor Commissioner's work. I know firsthand from the ground that it is making a difference. And you're right. No one agency can do it alone. So I'm glad to hear about that partnership with CRD. Thank you.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you, Senator. A lot of good questions. So mine are going to feel disjointed because they asked questions I wanted to hear covered. I would agree with Senator Smallwood-Cuevas to see the budget, 10.9 million, and the departments or boards that are covered under that. It doesn't seem like nearly enough, especially given some of the challenges. Just talk about EDD alone, which was definitely not something we saw coming even after 2008. There was just no way to see this. So I want to ask some disjointed questions.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Wage theft claims. One of the things I wanted to know is some of the reforms maybe the Department of Industrial Relations may be undertaking to address the delays in processing those claims to reduce the timeline to meet the 120 day specified in the labor code. 120 days is four months. And I think about the folks that get wage theft claims, those are typically lower wage workers.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I don't know that that's true, but I would assume that that is true, and that's a long time for someone to wait for some, and I know due diligence is important, but I'm thinking it has somewhat, a little bit more to do with your ability to have appropriate staffing. So that in terms of how it's going and any idea how many wage theft claims are dismissed because of delays? Just generally, your thoughts on that?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Sure. Yeah. I will answer on the first one. I'll have to get back to you on that. Part of the question is how many are actually, dismissed, but I will do that. And the Labor Commissioner is actually here, so we can have a quick follow up. Yeah, we're fully aware of the 800 days is too long, and so we're moving forward to one staffing, continue to staff up. As I mentioned before, the complexities of the laws become a part of the issue as well.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so I think it's taking longer than typical. Also, the court system takes a long time to work through, and so some of the court system cases are over 365 days. So the 120 days is.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Good comparatively.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Yeah, exactly. So if you add all that together, it causes the issue that we have today in terms of the waiting time period. The Labor Commissioner has instituted what they call these concentrated conferences within the San Diego area, within the Inland Empire area.
- Stewart Knox
Person
They're moving those out into some of the coastal areas where they're taking these concentrated conferences in one big chunk. That has reduced the timeline by almost 50% on some of those cases. So these are some of the moves that the Commissioner is taking on to move us forward. But we still realize it's really a staffing issue, too. And so we're working with the Commissioner as well.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And when I also talk to the Senators and ways that we could actually work with CBOs and other entities to start a pipeline, community college pipeline of folks to actually be able to hire. As you know, the State of California, nothing is super easy to do in terms of hiring, but I think we're moving in the right direction for the labor Commissioner.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. So, moving to a different issue, I wanted to ask about Cal OSHA and in your view, of course, and the need to update procedures to address unsafe working conditions and work practices for the cannabis employers. Just some thoughts?
- Stewart Knox
Person
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Especially with the L.A. Times article that came out recently. Not so recent anymore. About two and a half, three months ago. Obviously, there's an underground economy to the cannabis economy or the industry itself. So, you know, the good actors in that field I think we do a good job with. It's the underground actors that are where there's still unknowns. Cal OSHA does do, obviously, those investigations, that they do follow up on those investigations.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so once tipped off, but it also takes the employees many times, as you know, the ones that have to tip them off. And in many times, those employees may be workers that don't have documentation to work. And so they don't usually do that.
- Stewart Knox
Person
And so we do have two different groups within EDD, actually, with the tax branch that oversees, because there's also a tax evasion issue here with them, that they're also evading taxes, that they work across the lines with Department of Industrial Relations and DOSH in terms of reciprocal information back and forth as well.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. I appreciate that. We're going to go with no further comments or questions. We're going to go to Members of the public and we're going to start with folks right here in this room, 2200 in support. I would like your name, your organization, if any, and then your support. So please, welcome, come on forward.
- Lance Hastings
Person
Madam Chair Lance Hastings, the President of the California Manufacturers and Technology Association. There's no state agency that has a more symbiotic relationship with the manufacturing sector, primarily because of workforce development issues. CMTA has appreciated its relationship with ETP over the many years, and the opportunity to work with Stewart Knox in my four and a half years in the capacity has been a pleasure, and I look forward to your successful support in becoming Secretary. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Keith Dunn
Person
Thank you. Keith Dunn here on behalf of the District Council of Ironworkers, the State of California. Also here today on behalf of the State Building Trades Council of California, in strong support of the Secretary's continued role. We look forward to working with him and appreciate the opportunity to continue to work on the ERiCA Grant, the Equal Representation for All.
- Keith Dunn
Person
We appreciate your leadership in that program and reaching out to underserved communities to make sure that they have the opportunity to lift themselves up through quality work and the opportunity to be safe while they're doing it. So thank you for your support.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Alex Torres
Person
Madam Chair and Members Alex Torres with the Bay Area Council, representing over 300 employers in the nine county Bay Area, here to simply voice our support for Secretary Knox's appointment. Had the pleasure to speak with him and explain a little bit about our work, particularly in evangelizing apprenticeships for our employer members. Look forward to working with you going forward. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next speaker.
- Gerback Sahota
Person
Good afternoon. My name is Gerbak Sahota. I'm the President and CEO of the California Association for Local Economic Development. We represent hundreds and hundreds of economic developers at the local level and at the state that are working hard to create economic opportunity for Californians. We're here and pleased to support Stewart's nomination and his appointment to this position. What you heard today is his passion for workforce development, but also his deep understanding of what it takes to create economic opportunity for Californians from an economic development perspective.
- Gerback Sahota
Person
Stewart doesn't just talk the talk about workforce issues and economic development issues, he walks the walk. He's the person that rolls up his sleeve and says, who needs to be at the table, how do we find solutions and how do we work together to get there? So we're here. Pleased to support his nomination. Also, thank you for all the questions you asked related to economic development for both the conference. It's very much appreciated thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Adam Peck
Person
Good afternoon. Adam Peck, Executive Director of the Workforce Investment Board of Tulare County and Legislative Chair of the California Workforce Association. California Workforce Association represents the 45 local workforce development boards within California, and we on behalf of them proudly support Stewart Knox. I will echo that deep understanding of these very complex, interwoven systems and a great management grasp on how to get those systems to work on behalf of workers and businesses in California. So we proudly support the nomination.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Shubhangi Domokos
Person
Madam Pro tem and Members Shubhangi Domokos with the California Labor Federation, very pleased to be here to support the confirmation of Secretary Knox to be our next Secretary of Labor. His extensive record on workforce development and his commitment to labor law enforcement truly make him an excellent fit for both this challenging but very critical position that requires both big picture vision for California workers and a focused administration of the state's most important worker agencies.
- Shubhangi Domokos
Person
And we believe he has truly demonstrated an understanding that strong enforcement of labor laws are not just beneficial for workers, but also essential in leveling the playing field for responsible employers who follow the law. And we believe he will continue to do this important work as Secretary of Labor. We urge you to support his nomination. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. Thank you. Next witness.
- Linda Zorn
Person
My name is Linda Zorn, economic and workforce development at Butte College, and I also represent the statewide Community College Contract Education Units. And we strongly support the nomination of Stewart Knox for the Secretary of Labor.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. Next witness.
- Megan Subers
Person
Thank you, Madam Chair Members. Meagan Subers, on behalf of the California Professional Firefighters, very pleased to be here in support of the confirmation of Mr. Knox. During his time at the Labor Agency, both as Secretary and Undersecretary, he's shown a very strong commitment to apprenticeship, which, as we know, is a wonderful pathway for good jobs in California. CPF is the proud labor sponsor of the California Firefighter Joint Apprenticeship Committee, and so we appreciate the Secretary's engagement with us on those issues. In addition to ensuring adequate personal protective equipment for firefighters, workers' compensation, improvements to the system are always important to our Members and we look forward to continuing our work with him. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you so much. Next witness.
- Anthony Dalton
Person
Good afternoon, my name is Anthony Dalton. I'm the Chief Operating Officer of Futuro Health, a non-profit launched by Kaiser Permanente and SEIU UHW. The goal is to bring diverse communities into allied healthcare careers. Thousands now of new people that are interested in jobs are now getting these opportunities thanks to the work of people like Stewart. So Futura Health would love to support the nomination of him. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you. Very much. Next witness. Welcome.
- Terry Brennand
Person
Madam Pro Tem and Senators, Terry Brennand, on behalf of SEIU, California. At the risk of jeopardizing the support of our Senator from Santa Cruz, the 700,000 members represented by SEIU are in strong support of Mr. Knox and his confirmation. I've also been asked to express the support of the Carpenter's Union, principally because I'm probably closest in age and hair color to Danny Curtin, speaking on his behalf.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I might add. The former Natural Resources Secretary asked me to cut off the speakers before. No. Thank you. Other speakers in support. Okay, let me ask, in room 2200, are there people who wish to speak in opposition? Opposition? Okay, we're going to go back to our moderator. Mr. Moderator, we are happy to hear you tee up speakers in support or opposition. And they will give their name, organization, if any, and their position.
- Committee Moderator
Person
Ladies and gentlemen, if you'd like to comment, support or opposition? You may press 1 and 0 at this time, and we'll go to line 247. Please go ahead.
- Shane Gusman
Person
Madam Chair, Members, Shane Gusman, on behalf of the Teamsters, the Amalgamated Transit Union, the Machinists Unite Here, Utility Workers Union of America, and the Engineers and Scientists of California, all of these unions strongly support.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Committee Moderator
Person
At this time, there's no others in queue.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Thank you very. I forgot to. Thank you for your help today, Mr. Moderator. We really always appreciate it. I forgot to thank you for meeting with me and taking time. I really do appreciate that. And I am glad that the speaker on economic development got up so I could remind you one last time about the prison situation and closures in communities and your being a bridge and voice to help the Administration understand expectations.
- Stewart Knox
Person
Absolutely and I'd like. I mean, I'd like to add a little to that. So Jeff and I, Secretary Macomber and I have actually met 3 and 4 times on this. As a matter of fact, we have been working with them on the two upcoming closures. We're working on the Susanville closure as we speak. We've dedicated over $1.0 million of what we call rapid response money to the Susanville location already and the community economic resilience funds.
- Stewart Knox
Person
We are also going to be looking at dedicating funds to all of those closures. So we're already working together.
- Toni Atkins
Person
I appreciate that. I just think those engaged in economic development in any community in our state understand that it is really about planning and looking forward and the vision. And I'm sure the community colleges are an excellent resource in that regard, too. So, thank you. I'm sorry, I was going to use a very politically incorrect cliche. I don't mean to go on and on and on, but it is incredibly important to these communities, and many of them, again, rural communities that cannot afford economic. Thank you.
- Toni Atkins
Person
With that, Madam Secretary, we need a motion.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
Excuse me I'll yield that the Vice Chair of Rules to the former Secretary of Natural.
- Toni Atkins
Person
You see what we have to deal with. My two colleagues here to the right. I'm so sorry for my two colleagues here to the left. But with that, Madam Secretary, will you please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll call]. Five to zero.
- Toni Atkins
Person
Five to zero. And we thank you for your time. Congratulations. And this Committee will forward this on to the full Senate. Thank you. Okay.
- Toni Atkins
Person
This concludes our agenda today. I want to thank my colleagues. I want to thank all of the individuals who participated in public testimony today. If you were not able to testify, submit your comments or suggestions in writing to the Rules Committee our visit our website for instructions. We really, truly value your comments and suggestions. They're important to us, and we want to make sure that's included in the official hearing records. So thank you very much. Thank everyone for your patience.
- Shannon Grove
Legislator
We're done.
- Toni Atkins
Person
The Senate Committee on Rules is now adjourned.
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