Assembly Standing Committee on Privacy and Consumer Protection
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Okay, we're going to call the hearing to order, and we're going to invite my colleagues and especially any one of my Republican colleagues to join me on the dais so we can start the hearing. Apparently my staff Members will hear me, and hopefully they'll appear while I'm reading the beginning. So we can start because I appreciate Mister Wiener being here right on time. Welcome to the Assembly Privacy and Consumer Protection hearing.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
To effectively manage our time, we'll be limiting testimony to two witnesses for support and two in opposition on each Bill, each witness will be allowed two minutes to present their testimony, four minutes total for each side. After the support witness, anyone else in the room who wants to share their support, name and organization will be invited up.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
The same with the opposition. And we are only taking in person testimony, but we always invite folks to provide their comments on our portal. On our website. We do have a very robust consent calendar thanks to bipartisan cooperation. Thank you to my Republican colleagues. So we will talk about that when they get here.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I want to make one change clear on SB 785 by Senator Caballero. There is a change that is live in the analysis online, but was not in the original analysis. So we wanted to highlight for everyone today, again, that is online now if you want to follow up to read it.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But the change to the analysis in SB 785 is that. Number six in the summary of the analysis, the temporary exemption for series tickets has been removed. The updated analysis, as I said, is posted on the Committee website. And the author is continuing to work with the Committee to refine this exemption while it is in Assembly appropriations.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So the exemption, although imperfect, will likely come back in appropriations. That Bill is not being discussed now, but I didn't want to forget to mention it, so I decided just to do it at the top of the hearing. And look at that. Miss Dixon, thank you for being here.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
That means we can start as a Subcommitee, so we will take up Mister Wiener's bills. Mister Wiener, do you want to start with SB 532 or you have two? SB 961? Mister Wiener, are we going with 532? Yes. Okay, thank you. So we'll hear SB 532.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
Okay. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for hearing the Bill and for working with us. And I'm happy to accept the Committee amendments on pages 4 and 5 of the analysis. These amendments were actually Transportation Committee amendments that were taken in, that we are taking in the Privacy Committee.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
And so I appreciate that SB 532 modernizes parking payments by authorizing but not requiring a time limited pilot program for San Francisco to implement paid parking without having to incur the high cost of meter installation and maintenance. Current law, while not requiring that cash be accepted, that's not required under existing law.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
A physical meter is required, and that requires spending precious transportation resources to purchase, install and maintain frankly outdated and expensive parking meter equipment. Last year, the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency, MTA, spent $26 million on the parking meter infrastructure, which is approximately half of the revenue that it got from those meters.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
So we're seeing a lot of meter revenue instead of going into transportation projects just being consumed by the physical meter infrastructure. Also, they take up a lot of. They take up a lot of space on the sidewalks that cities could decide to use for different purposes. They get vandalized frequently.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
And so SB 532 will create with the amendment a five year pilot program for San Francisco to pilot meterless parking payment zones, which will require signage about how people can make cash payments and also require the city to adopt a plan around equity and access.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
And then at the end of the five years, the Legislature will be able to assess whether to retain or expand the program. So I respectfully ask for an aye vote. With me today to testify is Matt Silverling with the California Mobility and Parking Association and Reynell Cooper, residential parking policy manager at SFMTA.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Two minutes each, when you're ready, Madam Chair Members.
- Matthew Siverling
Person
Matthew Siverling, on behalf of the California Mobility and Parking Association here in strong support of the Bill, SB 532, again, as the Senator pointed out, this is taking an incremental and reasonable small step towards the future and the way that cities we all know and believe, will be enforcing parking at some point.
- Matthew Siverling
Person
So to start off in a bite sized piece, to do it in the City of San Francisco and understand how this works, to educate people and normalize the procedure for paying for parking remotely, we think is important and strongly supported. So we urge your aye vote. Thank you.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
My name is Raynell Cooper and I'm a parking policy manager at SFMTA, the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency. Thank you, Chair Bauer Kahan and Committee Members.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
We appreciate Senator Wiener's leadership and introduction of SB 532, which would authorize a time limited pilot that would allow San Francisco to modernize the way we accept payment in paid parking zones and allow the city to save millions of dollars at a time when budgets are tighten.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
Paid parking is the best tool that cities have to create parking availability, which benefits businesses, minimizes circling and double parking, reduces emissions, speeds public transit, and makes streets safer and more efficient. But parking meters are expensive the SFMTA spent close to $26 million last year to purchase, install, manage and maintain parking meters.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
These meters are purposefully broken and vandalized to avoid payment and are targets for criminals looking to rip off the city or rip off Members of the public. State law currently prohibits mobile only payment, effectively requiring cities to use physical parking meters and pay stations to accept payment for parking.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
SB 532, as proposed to be amended, would authorize San Francisco to pilot mobile only parking payment zones for a five year period after implementation of the first zone.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
In addition, for people who don't have a bank account or don't have a phone, the legislation requires that San Francisco develop an accessible and equitable parking cash payment plan in mobile only payment areas. These would be created in consultation with local stakeholder groups and approved by our local governing body.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
The legislation also includes a provision that would require San Francisco to study the option of sending mailed invoices for parking sessions that could be paid later through cash or other payment methods. We're also requiring signage within 100ft from any paid parking space that clearly states that payment's required and how it can be made.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
Mobile payment for parking is not new. Cities all around the world have had mobile parking payment for over a decade, including San Francisco. So many motorists will already be familiar with paying for parking on a mobile device. You could also pay by calling in so you don't need a smartphone. You could pay with a phone call.
- Raynell Cooper
Person
And with respect to privacy, cities already have mobile payment options that store credit card information securely and all of the requisite safeguards to protect an individual's identity and personally identifying information. For all these reasons, the city and County of San Francisco supports SB 532 and we respectfully request your aye vote thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Anybody else here in support of this measure, please come up.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
Marc Vukcevich, on behalf of Streets for All in support, thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Anyone here in opposition to the measure? Support. More support.
- Silvia Shaw
Person
Sorry about that. Sylvia Solis Shaw here on behalf of City and County, San Francisco Mayor Lyndon Breed in support, and also on behalf of CCTI, the California City Transportation Initiative, in strong support. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Okay, and nobody got up when I said opposition, so I'm going to go with seeing no opposition. We will bring it back to that. Yeah, Miss Dixon.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Thank you, Senator. I went through it when I was on City Council in Newport Beach to transition from the parking meters to the kiosks. There was, during the public debate on it, there was a little bit of mild opposition because not everybody has a cell phone and various other reasons. They like parking meters.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
So we did for economic reasons, financial reasons, and convenience reasons, and the shift and the technology made sense. So now we have the kiosks in Newport Beach. And so you want to go one step further. So I've not seen that. So if you could explain how that would work.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
Sure. And then Mister Cooper may be able to add on to it. Yeah. So the kiosks are allowed. That's when you have, like, basically a group meter. Right. And those are even more expensive to install, as you know. Yeah.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
And so this would be basically, you pay through your phone, although there will be required to be signage with a phone number you can call to do a payment if you don't have a phone.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Is there an app like Parkmobile or something like that?
- Raynell Cooper
Person
Yeah. Right now, San Francisco uses an app called pay by phone. Cities can. There's multiple vendors out there in the market, and cities can work with whomever. Right now we use pay by phone in San Francisco. Yeah.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
Yeah. And just one thing I should have mentioned before. There's been some polling or analysis on this. So 97% of people in the US have cell phones, 90% have smartphones. For people whose incomes are under $30,94% have cell phones, 79% have smartphones. And so there is just a growing trend towards people having this technology.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
But we do have. There will be a phone number you can call if you don't have a smartphone.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
So then the process is you just pull into the space and then what happens?
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
And then you go onto the app. oh, so it's.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Right. Just like having the kiosk, but you don't need to go to the kiosk. Cause it's right there.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
Exactly. Or call the number. We also. This would not be the first city. There are various cities that are doing this. Miami, Galveston, Texas, Seattle. So other cities.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
That makes sense. Yeah. I make a motion to support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no further conversation, as someone who loves San Francisco and lives nearby and dines and goes there a lot to enjoy everything that San Francisco has to offer, I just hope we go to one app, because it does drive me crazy.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
In every city that it's a different app, I show up, I don't have the app. It happened to me recently. Luckily, I was with a friend and she just paid for my car because I didn't have time to download the app before I had to get to my appointment. But, you know, that would really be great.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Competition in the marketplace is great, but it's just so frustrating. So I hope that San Francisco ensures that people, this is easy, because we need San Francisco to be booming, which means you need all of us coming to dine in your restaurants and go to your theater. And we want to do that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But with that, I am happy to support. So we are as a Subcommitee. So we're not going to take a motion? We can't yet, but we will when the time is appropriate. Would you like to close?
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
No, thank you very much. And I agree with you. Seamlessness is good. We did it with Clipper in the Bay Area, so hope Springs eternal. And our San Francisco's goal will be to do this well and provide a template for other cities. Respectfully, ask for an aye vote.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Perfect. Okay, Mister Wiener, we can move on to your. Thank you both. Thank you both. We'll move on to your second Bill, which is SB 532961. zero, wait, we just did that one. I lied. You're right. SB 961.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Colleagues, we are in a traffic safety crisis. More than 4000 Californians die every year on our roads, and that number has been going up, and that is true for the country as a whole.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
About one third of all traffic fatalities in the state are speeding related, and speed is exponentially related to fatality risk in a vehicle collision.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
SB 961 will require new cars, starting in 2030, manufactured or sold in California to implement existing technology that already is being deployed in some cars that will alert drivers if they exceed 10 miles an hour over the speed limit.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
When this bill was first introduced, we were going to require technology that cars would be physically unable to go more than 10 miles over the speed limit. We heard loud and clear that that was not going to fly. And so, it is now a warning.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
We know from various studies that have happened that this technology is effective at getting people to slow down. Sometimes people don't even realize how fast they're driving, especially with newer cars that are very smooth, and you don't even realize it. So, I do want to just note, AAA is supporting this bill.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
The NTSB was a lead witness in Senate Transportation Committee. This is a bill that will save lives. And I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
With me today to testify is Marc Vukcevic, Director of State Policy at Streets for All, and Joe Martinez, who is a member of Families for Safe Streets, families who have been impacted by traffic violence. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Two minutes each, when you're ready, sir.
- Joe Martinez
Person
Great. Yes. Good afternoon, Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan. Members of the Privacy and Consumer Protections Committee, my name is Joe Martinez. I'm a member of Families for Safe Streets. It's a group I hope none of you will ever have to be part of.
- Joe Martinez
Person
We are people who have been directly affected by traffic crash, either as crash survivors or as people who have had a loved one hurt or killed in a crash. I came here from Fresno today. That's where I raised my son, Paul. As a single parent, Paul was an artist and a basketball player.
- Joe Martinez
Person
Even as a young man, Paul still loved going to church, believe it or not. Paul was my whole world. On June 5, 2013, it was late when the phone rang. When I answered, Paul's cousin was screaming into the phone that Paul had been hit. If you're a parent, just imagine that phone call for a moment.
- Joe Martinez
Person
Paul had already passed by the time I got to the hospital. I can still picture him covered in a white sheet as I crossed the room to be with him. I hugged him. I kissed his forehead for the last time. Paul was so excited about life, just like he should have been as a 21-year-old.
- Joe Martinez
Person
But Paul's life was taken away by a driver going 54 mph in a 40 miles per hour zone. The same year Paul was killed, in 2013, 1000 Californians lost their lives because of speeding. And every year since, that means more than 10,000 people have died since Paul did in speeding related crashes.
- Joe Martinez
Person
You can change that and make California a leader. And using technology to support safe speeds. Speed kills again and again. Please, please vote yes on SB 961. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Your second witness.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
Good afternoon. Marc Vukcevich, Streets for All, sponsor of the bill; traffic violence has become the number one killer of all people aged five through 44 years old in California. Pedestrian deaths in this country have shot up 77% since 2010, and the number one factor is speed. And to be clear, this issue disproportionately affects communities of color.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
And the public at a high level is aware of this. I believe if the public was asked if the legislature wants to tackle the number one killer of children, they would say yes.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
The largest factors that parents give in allowing their children to walk to school, not whether their kid's gonna get kidnapped, it's whether they're gonna die getting hit along the way. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety completed a survey of 1800 adults.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
Over 60% of them agree to a system that alerts you at 1 mph over the speed limit. 80% of people agree to support it when it kicks in at 10 mph with a speed limit. And that's exactly what our bill does.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
The public has a right to feel safe on our roadway, and I believe that the public contract is broken on a roadway. If you've driven on our roadways, it's crazy. People are driving like madness right now. The experience of driving has eroded.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
Consider what your driving experience would be like if other people around you had this in their vehicles. This technology is already used in vehicles right now. Many major auto manufacturers already have this in new vehicles and an existing feature called adaptive cruise control. Don't let the opposition to tell you that this is a new or unimplementable technology.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
The European Transport Safety Council estimated that the upcoming fitting of ISA on all cars, vans, buses will eventually cut road deaths by 20%. That's what the EU estimated.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
In turn, though, this is gonna reduce wear and pair on your brake pads, it's gonna increase your fuel efficiency, it's gonna make you a better driver and ultimately save drivers money through insurance and maintenance. And it's gonna save your city's infrastructure money, too, by cars not crashing into light poles and destroying our roadways.
- Marc Vukcevich
Person
The legislature cannot pass a bill tomorrow to cut the rate of cancer in half, but the legislature can act on this. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Anyone else here in support of this bill? Come up and register your name, position, and organization, if you have one.
- Jenny Yu
Person
Hello. My name is Jenny Yu. I'm a member and founder of Families for Safe Street, San Francisco Bay Area. My mother was struck by a speeding driver in San Francisco almost 14 years ago. The crash took Judy away and left. Now our family, a mother.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Jenny Yu
Person
Thank you.
- John Lowell
Person
Good afternoon. My name is John Lowell. I'm a senior member of San Francisco Bay Area chapter of Families for Safe Streets. I am a survivor of a collision from a speeding vehicle in San Francisco in 2012. After I got out of the hospital, $8.56 million were filed in claims on my health insurance. That's $21 million in 2024 cost analysis. Please pass this bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you for your support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Make sure to register support if you're in support of the bill when you come up. Name -
- Melina Cabada
Person
Hello, my name is Melina Mackey Cabada, and I represent Walk San Francisco, and I support Sb 961. Thank you.
- Whitney Erickson
Person
Hi, my name is Whitney Erickson, and I represent the Marin County Bicycle Coalition and Safe Routes to School Marin, a program of that coalition, as well as the Bicycle Advisory Committee, and I support the bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Bert Hill
Person
Hello. My name is Bert Hill. I'm employed by my company, Bicycle Commuter Services. For 16 years, I managed San Francisco's safety classes for bicyclists, a program with national recognition. Professionally, I serve as an expert witness in bicycle related roadway litigation, speed kills. I support SB 961.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Rebecca Rudolph
Person
Hello. My name is Rebecca Rudolph. I'm in support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Jodie Medeiros
Person
Good afternoon. My name is Jodie Medeiros. I'm the Executive Director of Walk San Francisco, and we also organize Families for Safe Streets. We're co-sponsor for the bill and we support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Beckley Simpson
Person
Yes, my name is Beckley Simpson, and I am in support of 961. I'm a member of Walk San Francisco.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Allie Geller
Person
Hi, Allie Geller, representing San Francisco Bay Area Families for Safe Streets and strong support of 961. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Laura Keenan
Person
Hi, I'm Laura Keenan, cofounder of Families for Safe Street San Diego. My husband and father to our 15-month-old son Matt, was killed by a speeding driver in 2021. 10 miles an hour would have saved his life. Thank you.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Thank you.
- Beverly Shelton
Person
Hi, I'm Grandma Beverly. I'm the cofounder of SoCal Families for Safe Streets, and all of our members alive and dead, want you to support this bill. It's just a few beeps and it might save lives. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Kelly Dunlap
Person
I'm Kelly Dunlap with Bike East Bay. I'm in support of this bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Alex Ramirez
Person
Good afternoon. Alex Ramirez, Executive Director of Los Angeles Walks and representative of the Southern California Families for Safe Streets and we support this bill.
- Kate Fefelova
Person
Hello, I'm Kate Fefelova, Vision Zero Network, national nonprofit, and support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Lori Markowitz
Person
Hello. My name is Lori Markowitz, and I'm here on behalf of Families for Safe Street Southern California. My son Josh was killed by a speeding driver 100 mph. Please save lives. Thank you. I'm in support of this bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Nancy Arbuckle
Person
My name is Nancy Arbuckle. I'm a senior. I live in San Francisco. I'm a full-time pedestrian and I'm here in support of this bill. Thank you.
- Paul Wormer
Person
Good afternoon. In 2000, I bought a new car. It let me set a speed warning. It changed the way I drove. Paul Wormer, San Francisco resident and walker and I support this bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Fiona Yim
Person
Hi, my name is Fiona Yim. I'm a San Francisco resident representing Walk San Francisco, which is the co-sponsor of this bill, and I am here in support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Steven Wallauch
Person
In-betweener: Steve Wallach, on behalf of the Alameda Contra Costa Transit District; they have a support, if amended position. They do support the intent of this bill. The safety will provide for not only its bus riders, but pedestrians and other affordable road users. But they are concerned about the cost impacts on transit buses.
- Steven Wallauch
Person
Transit buses have gone up in price, the suppliers have gone down, and so they're very sensitive about new requirements on these vehicles going forward. So, we do hope you take in consideration the impacts this would have on transit operators.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Anyone here in opposition to the bill? When you're ready.
- John Moffatt
Person
Good afternoon, Madam Chair and members of the committee. John Moffat, on behalf of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, we support the goals of the bill. We support safe vehicles. We appreciate the stories that have been shared today. We.
- John Moffatt
Person
Our opposition to the bill is primarily under the guise that, you know, there is a role for the states and there's a role for the Federal Government when it comes to vehicle safety.
- John Moffatt
Person
And we believe mandating technology such as this on a vehicle is the role that the purpose for which we have, the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. The author noted that the safety board made a recommendation to NHTSA, the regulatory agency, on this technology.
- John Moffatt
Person
NHTSA, in April of this year, responded back to the board that they actually have two pilot programs going right now to see if this technology even works and has the intended effect that everyone hopes it might have. And NHTSA is not a do-nothing agency in this space. They are, you know, they have over 600 employees.
- John Moffatt
Person
They have a $1.6 billion budget, and this is what they do.
- John Moffatt
Person
One of the things that they mandated on vehicles and vehicle manufacturers this year, which, through their testing, they believe will have a positive impact on pedestrian safety, is the mandate for automatic emergency braking systems, which have to be put on cars under their edict by September of 2029.
- John Moffatt
Person
And so, again, we appreciate the stories that were shared today. We appreciate the author and the sponsor's intent with the bill. But I think from our perspective, we believe that we should let NHTSA continue to do their work.
- John Moffatt
Person
And if this is technology that proves to have its intended impact on drivers, they will mandate it on us, and we will do it for all 50 states, not just for the State of California.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Additional opposition in the room? Come on up.
- Matthew Robinson
Person
Thank you, Madam Chair. Matt Robinson, on behalf of the Specialty Equipment Market Association, SEMA. Just to echo the comments of the alliance, I was also asked to convey the opposition of Shasta County. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- James Lombardo Jr.
Person
James Lombardo, on behalf of the California Motorcycle Dealers Association and the ABETA California, a motorcycle rights and safety organization; not even in Europe does this apply to motorcycles. Thank you.
- Lawrence Gayden
Person
Lawrence Gaydon, on behalf of the California Manufacturers and Technology Association, respectfully opposed.
- Kasha B Hunt
Person
Kasha Hunt here with Nossaman. We oppose, unless amended to exclude motorcycles, on behalf of Motorcycle Industry Council.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no additional testimony in the room on this bill, I'll bring it back to the dais. We do not have quorum yet. No, we're trying.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Well, Senator, I want to thank you, because, you know, we heard the opposition as we worked on this bill, and we all hope the Federal Government will do everything we need them to do to protect our communities.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But we also know the fundamental principle of states' rights is that we will go further to protect our communities where we believe the Federal Government is falling down on its job. And I want to thank you, sir, and everyone who showed up here to remind us of their loved ones. I know. Oof.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
You couldn't have been more accurate when you said, when my kids walk to school or they're walking to their summer camp right now, I actually don't worry they'll be kidnapped.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But I worry every day that somebody is driving unsafely on the roads in my neighborhood, and then my little son, who's not so tall for a 10-year-old, won't be seen. And people, not only are they driving too fast these days, but they're also driving distracted on their cell phones. And it is really scary.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And so, I think this is an incredible, incredibly modest approach that goes, if it can save any one of these lives, it is worth it.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And as to the opposition of the counties, it is hard for me to take seriously a question about the cost to our counties when the lives that have been lost and were spoken for today are priceless.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But I know that we have the budget chair here today who obviously wants to look out for local government, having come from local government himself.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So, to the extent that that is a need, hopefully we can address it through the budget process to make sure that this safety technology is available to everyone and we're not putting an extra burden on our local governments, because I agree that our number one priority should be protecting our communities, and this bill does that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So with that, would you like to close, Senator?
- Scott Wiener
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I really want to thank all of the families for being here today. And I said this yesterday in transportation, I'll say it again, that when you have a devastating, permanently life changing loss, to be able to turn that devastating tragedy into advocacy so that other families don't have the same experience, I'm in awe of people's ability to do that. So, thank you, and I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So we will take that up when we have a quorum. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, colleagues. Caballero. Yeah. Senator Caballero, I believe you are next with SB 785.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And since I'm remembering, I'll reiterate the change that we mentioned at the top of the hearing in the analysis that is online on SB 785, which is that the temporary exemption for serious tickets has been removed and the author is going to continue to work on that exemption as we move forward.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Again, that is live on our website if you want to see it. And with that, I actually, if you don't mind, Senator, before I have to go vote in judiciary, so I have to step out. But before you begin, I want to thank you for your partnership on this Bill and your sincere effort to protect consumers.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Let's wait for the room to clear. I know that first and foremost, you have put California's consumers first in this process, and it is a hard, hard issue to tackle, as we both have learned.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But I think that your work on this, your dedication is showing through this legislation, and I'm happy to be moving the bills as it stands today, hopefully through this Committee. I just want to thank you for your partnership on that. And with that, when you're ready, and I will be turning the gavel over.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Thank you very, thank you very much, Madam Chair and Members. I, too, want to thank the chair and the Committee staff for the work that they did on this issue and accept the Committee amendments at this time.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
SB 785 is a consumer protection Bill that ends the predatory practices that currently plagues the live entertainment ticketing industry by enacting meaningful reforms that put consumers, venues, artists and teams first. I've heard countless stories from consumers who were misled during the purchase of live ticket events.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Consumers purchase tickets through secondary sellers only to discover they are invalid upon entry to the event venue. As a result, small, independent venues are left to deal with the consumer complaints, refund requests or disputes over ticket authenticity. These tickets are known as speculative tickets.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Speculative ticketing is the practice of listing tickets on secondary sites before a reseller owns or possesses the ticket. Speculative ticket sales constrain the relationship of venues with artists or promoters and erode trust in customers. When a consumer purchases tickets to live entertainment events, they care about two things. One is seat location and two, purchasing a real ticket.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
SB 785 would ensure consumers know exactly what they pay for by requiring a ticket seller to disclose seat information. The Bill would enhance consumer trust and end speculative ticketing by requiring that a ticket seller own, possess or have a contractual right to the ticket at the time of the sale.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Furthermore, in an effort to effectively ban the practice of scalping and the use of bots, this Bill establishes serious penalties for the use of deceptive URL's that lure consumers into buying tickets at inflated prices and for employing bots that allow professional scalpers to hoard tickets and engage in large scale scalping, depriving consumers of access to face value tickets.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I have had productive conversations with the Committee chair and discussed concept, including caps on fees, caps on resale, and transferability. However, I will not be moving forward with any of those provisions in an effort to avoid affecting the ongoing lawsuit against Live Nation, the parent company of Ticketmaster.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Moreover, we received technical assistance from the Attorney General's Office to ensure that no provision in this Bill will be detrimental to the ongoing lawsuit. It's time to modernize California's ticketing statute in order to protect consumers from anti consumer practices and price gouging while preserving the rights of artists, entertainers, teams and venues.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
With me today to testify and support is Gabriel Docto with the National Association of Independent Venues and Tim Lynch on behalf of the San Francisco warriors.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Caballero. Each of you have two minutes.
- Gabriel Docto
Person
Thank you. My name is Gabe Docto. I'm with the National Independent Venue Association, California chapter. We represent hundreds of independent venues promoters in the State of California as well as across the country. On a national level, ticketing reform has been a priority of NIVA since the summer of 2022, predating to Taylor Swift debacle.
- Gabriel Docto
Person
Today, our Members in the state are excited at the prospect of California taking the lead to ban speculative resale, require secondary market disclosures, and increase penalties from deceptive practices that trick fans into paying too much money for fake tickets.
- Gabriel Docto
Person
As independent venue operators, we deal directly with the consumer, De escalating frustration and anger caused by fraudulent tickets that we have no Association or control over. Fans show us fake tickets on a nightly basis that come from secondary platforms where a dollar 30 ticket is inflated to 150, even if the show is not sold out.
- Gabriel Docto
Person
Fans often blame us for the practices of bad actors, leaving our reputations tarnished and our patrons trust tattered. This dynamic is disheartening and threatens our already challenging margins, destabilizing our businesses and leaving them vulnerable to corporate acquisition. Don't take my word for it.
- Gabriel Docto
Person
On June 8, the Sonoma Press Democrat article titled Sonoma, Napa County venues are warning concert goers about uptick in inflated ticket prices, offered a snapshot of what our venue members do deal with on a nightly basis.
- Gabriel Docto
Person
The venue featured in the article is Nevada's Hotmap Tavern. Bill DeCarli, the venue's Director of music, and he's here with us in support on this measure today. I want to be clear. This measure is not a giveaway to live nation or Ticketmaster and does not strengthen monopolistic power. As the opponent suggests.
- Gabriel Docto
Person
Indie venues and promoters have been advocating across the nation for reforms contained in this Bill since 2022, SB 785 takes necessary steps to truly protect not only the fans, but the artists and the venues who depend on the fans attendance and trust to make a living. For those reasons, NIVA and our Members in California are in strong support of this measure and urge an aye vote today. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you.
- Timothy Lynch
Person
Good afternoon. Tim Lynch on behalf of the Golden State Warriors and we echo the comments of our friends at NIVA. And regardless of the size of the venue, the issues are the same. We are the front lines that face the consumers that come to the venue every single day.
- Timothy Lynch
Person
And if we don't give them a positive experience, whether it's through our own product, the warriors on the floor, or the dozens and dozens of other events that come through the chase center, we have no product. Without the trust of the fans, we cannot be successful.
- Timothy Lynch
Person
We thank the author and the Committee for Focusing this Bill on three essential consumer protections around bots, deceptive URL's, and speculative ticketing. Just by way of example, in the lead up to this hearing, I did a little searching for warriors tickets.
- Timothy Lynch
Person
You'll find that the official NBA site through which we sell our tickets and link through our tickets ends up fourth or fifth or 6th when you search due to manipulation of search or deceptive URL's. Further, when you click through on some of those sites to look for tickets for warriors tickets, you'll find tickets for sale for an October event that does not yet exist. We do not have our schedules yet and that does not exist.
- Timothy Lynch
Person
When you click through that, the website further prompts you along by telling you tickets for this event are selling fast or tickets are going quickly for this event, encouraging consumers to buy a product that is speculative at best. So we thank the Committee, we thank the author for her hard, focused work with this Bill and we encourage your support.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you very much. Do we have any other supporters in the room.
- Priscilla Quiroz
Person
Apologies. Priscilla Quiroz, here on behalf of the California Arts Advocates. We just want to quickly thank the author for the amendments that she's taken. Thank you.
- Patrick Malone
Person
Hi. Patrick Malone, Sonoma County resident, 20-year event producer and promoter in support of SB 785.
- Bill DeCarli
Person
Yeah, my name is Bill DeCarli. I'm Director of HopMonk Presents. We work with HopMonk Tavern, produce all the shows. I am wholeheartedly in support of 785.
- Awet Kidane
Person
Madam Chair and Members, Awet Kidane, representing the Los Angeles Rams. Strong support. Thank you to the author.
- Alex Torres
Person
Madam Chair and members, Alex Torres, here on behalf of a few folks with the indulgence of the chair venues who couldn't make it today. That includes Jim Cornett, owner-operator of Harlow's and President of NIVA California, representing any venues in the Capital region like Goldfields, Hotel Folsom Boardwalk and Torch Club.
- Alex Torres
Person
Los Angeles venues the Bellwether, Terra Grand Ballroom, Moroccan Lounge and the legendary Troubadour in Santa Monica. San Diego venues, Music Box and Brick by Brick. Lastly, also voicing support for another Planet Entertainment, headquartered in Berkeley, that manages the Greek Theater, Bill Graham, Outside lands and more.
- Eloy Garcia
Person
Madam Chair and Members, Eloy Garcia, for Live Nation Entertainment, in support.
- Jordan Curley
Person
Good afternoon. Jordan Curley, on behalf of the Music Artists Coalition, in support.
- Josh Lieberman
Person
Good afternoon. Josh Lieberman, general manager of August Hall and a proud member of NIVA California also in support.
- Christopher Scroggin
Person
Thank you, Chair and Members. Chris Scroggin, with the Pran company on behalf of AEG and Subsidiary Access in support.
- Graham LeBron
Person
Hi, I'm Graham LeBron from Cafe Du Nord in San Francisco. I'm an independent venue operator, member of NIVA and I'm in support.
- John Gunton
Person
I'm John Gunton. I'm the general manager of the Independent in San Francisco and the General manager of the newly being built venue in Sacramento, Channel 24. And I am also in support.
- Daniel Romandia
Person
I'm Daniel Romandia, the marketing director and talent buyer for Harlow's in the Starlet Room, as well as a co-owner of Cafe Colonial right here in Sacramento. And I am in strong support of this bill.
- Chaez Boswell
Person
Good afternoon. My name is Chaez Boswell. I represent Soul Blue Music Festival. I also represent ENT Legends, which is a concert touring company. And I also represent The Ring Studios, which is a local music venue here. And I'm in support.
- McKay Carney
Person
McKay Carney, on behalf of the San Jose Sharks, in support.
- Andrew Governor
Person
Andrew Governor on behalf of San Francisco 49ers, in support. And on behalf of California's five baseball teams, who are still working on a position, but we appreciate the amendments and working with the author. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. Do we have primary witnesses in opposition? Good afternoon.
- Diana Moss
Person
Thank you. It's an honor to address the Committee today. I'm Diana Moss, vice president and director of competition policy at the Progressive Policy Institute. Live Nation Ticketmaste is the subject of a long awaited antitrust case, yet continues to deploy all means to protect its monopoly. Live Nation has turned to backing legislation that would impair competition in the resale market.
- Diana Moss
Person
This market is the last frontier of competition in ticketing and poses an ongoing threat to the live nation monopoly. PPI supports legislative initiatives that promote resale, ticket transferability and transparency. But, many consumer protection bills include provisions that will act to stifle competition in resale and steer ticket buyers back to Ticketmaster.
- Diana Moss
Person
These bills all share a misplaced focus on ticket scalping, bots and speculative tickets. These are the exception and not the norm. Indeed, some studies show that over 50% of resale tickets are sold below face value.
- Diana Moss
Person
A well functioning competitive resale market works efficiently to match up more teams and artists with more fans at prices that reflect the dynamics of supply and demand. There are major downsides to bills that interfere with competition and resale. They hand live nation more market power.
- Diana Moss
Person
SB 785's restrictions on URL's classifying a ticket as a license and any potential price or fee caps would impair competition to the detriment of fans and artists. Such bills also create conflicts with antitrust enforcement.
- Diana Moss
Person
Regulation of resale in the midst of a DOJ case to which California has signed on could create a moving target in litigation or even immunize future antitrust actions involving ticketing. PPI urges the Committee to hit the pause button on SB 785 while the DOJ case runs its course.
- Diana Moss
Person
We also urge you to examine the evidence on the benefits of resale and how the bill tilts the scales to the Live Nation monopoly. Thank you, and I look forward to any questions.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Good afternoon, Madam Chair and Members. Robert Herrell, executive director of the Consumer Federation of California, respectfully opposed to SB 785. Let me just start broader, bigger picture, and then I'll drill down a little bit.
- Robert Herrell
Person
First of all, I appreciate the Senator, who I'm sure has learned now over the past couple of years, as have others, what a quagmire it is to get involved in this public policy issue. But it's a worthwhile conversation to have and an important one to have.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Big picture, we feel, at the Consumer Fed of California with this massive antitrust case that you heard previewed in this Committee and committees last year that it was coming. And here it is, the US Department of Justice, 29 states, including such progressive bellwethers as Wyoming, Texas, Florida, West Virginia, I believe Arkansas. And I'm missing some.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Those are some of the 29 states plus DC. I actually, having read the complaint, and it is quite a read, you should all read it, I think, because we know those cases will take years. The over under is 5 to 6 years, and I'll bet the over, pun intended.
- Robert Herrell
Person
I think that is really an invitation to state legislatures to take action that clips the wings of the monopoly. This bill only clips the wings of those who compete against the monopoly overwhelmingly.
- Robert Herrell
Person
That is not to say, with all due respect to the Senator and her supporters, which include the Chamber of Commerce, noted strong consumer advocates from the California Chamber of Commerce and the very monopoly that's being sued right now by the Federal Government in support of the bill, that there is a conversation to be had about spec ticketing.
- Robert Herrell
Person
There is a conversation to be had about deceptive URL's, and we're willing to have that conversation. This probably isn't the language that we would land on, and things have been moving very quickly. And while I was in the hallway, I heard an additional exemption. I couldn't hear over the tin of the hallway.
- Robert Herrell
Person
I don't know what that is, but I guess we'll find out. Drilling down just a little bit to close my comments, there are a few provisions here that we worry about unintended consequences that do wind up unintentionally strengthening the hand of the monopoly. I'll give you one example.
- Robert Herrell
Person
There have been some situations where seasoned ticket holders who release some of their seats to the secondary market have been, there's been retribution against them by the teams of which they are seasoned ticket holders.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Because when you get specific on spec ticketing or on some of the provisions, you now have identified what the seat is, which I think for a fan is a good thing, but it also has potential unintended consequences to punish the seasoned ticket holder who released those tickets. That concerns me.
- Robert Herrell
Person
That came up in Maryland, and that's a provision, just one of many, that concerns me. So we respectfully oppose the bill. We're happy to have a conversation with the author. We have not done so in a while, but we look forward to that. And we think this bill still needs a lot of work.
- Robert Herrell
Person
And the focus should not just be on those competing against the monopoly, but it also ought to include monopolistic practices that harm consumers. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. Do we have any other witnesses in opposition?
- James IV
Person
Madam Chair, Members, James Jack, on behalf of the Coalition for Ticket Fairness, associate my comments with my colleague from the Consumer Federation we're still opposed to the measure. Thank you.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
Madam Chair and Members, Courtney Jensen, on behalf of Seatgeek and Tickpic, in an opposed unless amended position. Appreciate the author working with us, but still do have significant concerns with the bill. Thank you.
- Leticia 'Tish' Rylander
Person
Hi, everyone. Tish Rylander, on behalf of Vivid Seats and we are opposed unless amended. Thank you.
- Erin Niemela
Person
Madam Chair and Members, Erin Niemela, representing Stubhub. We still have an opposed position, but we appreciate the author's open door and we'll continue working with her. Thank you.
- Heather Lamberg
Person
Chair and Members, Heather Lamberg, on behalf of Si Se Puede, Latin Business Association, Hispanic 100, and the Central Valley Latino Mayors and Elected Officials Coalition, we are respectfully in opposition.
- Robert Singleton
Person
Robert Singleton, Chamber of Progress, also respectfully opposed.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right, I would like to just call the roll real quick.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Bauer-Kahan? Patterson? Bryan? Dixon? Dixon, here. Hoover? Irwin? Irwin, here. Lowenthal? Lowenthal, here. Ortega? Ortega, here. Ward? Ward, here. Wicks? Wicks, here. Wilson. We have a quorum.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right. Do we have questions or comments from the Committee? Assemblymember Wicks?
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, as many of you know, I dove deep into this issue this year, and it is indeed a thorny one. So I think everyone who came up to express support or opposition I met with multiple times, as I know you have as well over the past year and a half.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
So I'm in your club here and trying to fix this very vexing challenge. I can't imagine a better author to work on this than you. And I assume the bill's going to move out of Committee today. I share some of the concerns that the opposition has raised.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
The opposition that has raised these concerns is the coalition I was working with on my bill. I'm going to lay off today. But the bill, I think, will get out. And I want to work with you as we head into appropriations because I think you and I have a history of landing some tough planes.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
So I would love to be a thought partner with you as this bill moves forward in its process and see if we can land this in a place where we can have something, you know, coming out of that process that we can all agree to. But I look forward to the conversations.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
I know you'll dive in, roll up your sleeves and jump on in and are someone who's very thoughtful and engaging with opposition and so would love to work with you on if the building's out of Committee today.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Sounds good. Thank you. Any other comments? I will. I'll just make some comments, too. We heard Assemblymember Wicks' bill earlier this year. And it is quite a balancing act with all these different groups that have concerns.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
And as you know, last year we were the co-authors on AB 8 with Assemblymember Friedman, and we really did see what, you know, what a difficult balance it is. And then in addition, you have the lawsuits going. But I am concerned about making sure that we don't.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
I mean, everything that the opposition talked about, not stifling competition, making sure that we are really doing a very pro consumer bill, I think that's the most important thing. And I am going to support the bill today.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
But I would really encourage you to work with the appropriations chair and see if we can get to a place that, as I said, looks at these critical areas that are not covered in your bill yet.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right. And, yes. Assemblymember Lowenthal.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Yes. Just very briefly, I want to commend the author for bringing this forward. I want to echo the comments of my colleagues who underscore the complexity of the issue.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
I'll tell you what makes this easier to make a determination on is when mail is sent into our communities, dumbing down the issue to constituents, purporting to be consumer oriented mail. That is clearly, you know, one aspect of the industry who stands to gain a lot by determination in the bill.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And so I, you know, caution industry in these types of situations, when you're dumbing it down for something that is so complex, it doesn't make the situation easier for us to try and resolve. So with that, I will be supporting the bill today.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Thank you very much.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right. Anybody else? Would you like to close?
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Would you like to close? Well, I appreciate the comments of the Committee. This is one of those situations where every time you think you've got a solution, something else blows up. And in the end, I had a bunch of moving pieces that I thought was going to deal with each one of the industries.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
That's a little bit different. What happens in football is different than what happens in baseball. It has to do with whether you own the facility or you don't own the facility. Right. It's not an easy task.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
But what I can say is I'm really happy that the appropriations chair has dipped her fingers in this particular issue because she understands from a really practical position what the challenges are, that we have. We basically narrowed it down to the bots of URL and the speculative and then checked with the AG to make sure that our bill would work with the litigation and be very clear about that.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I'm not interested in doing anything that's going to affect or make that litigation look bad. And so I will continue to work with their office, and I promise that I will work with the chair of appropriations to try to come up with the best Bill that we can get. If it's this one, great.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
If it's some additional things, I'm more than happy to look at it. So, with that, I would respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right, very good. And then just for the comment from the Consumer Federation on the amendment, it's one change in the analysis. Number six, in the summary of the analysis, the temporary exemption for series tickets has been removed. The updated analysis is posted on the Committee website.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
And with that, can I have the secretary please call the roll? I'm sorry? Oh, a motion. All right, that was a motion by Assemblymember Ortega, a second by Assemblymember Ward, and the motion is do pass to appropriations, as amended. Do pass, as amended to appropriations.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Okay, item number two, SB 785 by Senator Caballero. The motion is do pass, as amended, to the Appropriations Committee. Bauer-Kahan? Patterson? Bryan? Dixon? Dixon, aye. Irwin? Irwin, aye. Hoover? Lowenthal? Lowenthal, aye. Ortega? Ortega, aye. Ward? Ward, aye. Wicks? Wicks, not voting. Wilson? Ok, five votes.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Yeah, that bill needs one more vote, and we will hold the roll open. And we are going out of order because Senator Smallwood-Cuevas has another obligation. So we're going to be hearing SB 1446 right now.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you very much, Madam Chair and Assembly Members. Good to be with you. Good afternoon. I am pleased to present SBA be 1446, the retail theft Prevention and Safe Staffing act. zero, you got some acoustics in here. Can you hear me okay, should I get closer?
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I'm gonna just start by saying I will be accepting the Committee amendments which clarify our definition of consequential workplace technology and also clarifies how notice of these technologies must be given. And I want to thank Committee staff for your help with this.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
SB 1446 will protect workers and consumers by ensuring safe staffing levels at stores which utilize self checkout and ensure workers and consumers are notified when employers adopt consequential workplace technologies, as amended.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
This Bill would require large retailers and grocery stores to enact safe staffing ratios when utilizing self checkout kiosk and requires employers to notify their workers and consumers when they adopt technologies that automate, eliminate, or electronically monitors and alters a workers core functions.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
From a consumer protection standpoint, SB 1446 ensures the public and workers have noticed when technologies are being deployed that electronically monitor them or utilize AI in a way that significantly impacts their core job functions.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Recent developments in technology like security cameras with facial recognition, body cameras that can be worn by retail staff, smart carts, and more will continue to rapidly change workers and the consumer experience. We want to make sure privacy is protected, and it's crucial that our laws keep pace with this rapidly changing industry and technology.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
In recent years, we have seen automation in our retail, grocery and drug stores drastically cut workers, and that also contributes to other issues and concerns in our communities as we relate to poverty and trying to hold a safety net that can hold all of these workers.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
The cutting of the workforce also leads to chronic understaffing in our stores, which create some unsafe working conditions. Loan frontline clerks are forced to serve customers while monitoring self checkout stands, leaving these stores easy targets for theft and workplace violence. Many retailers have themselves acknowledged the challenges of self checkout and have either limited or removed them altogether.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I want to give a quote from a CEO of Dollar General which removed all of their self checkout from thousands of their stores. And the quote says, there is truly no substitute for an employee presence at the front end of the store to greet customers and to provide excellent customer service, including at the checkout.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Also want to note that there have been studies that show that 20 million Americans have stolen from self checkout, and when asked, you know, more, almost half of them said that they're planning to do it again.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
So these kiosks alone cause about four times more shrinkage of merchandise than traditional cashier checkouts, about $10 billion that the industry has reported in lost revenue. And beyond theft, self checkout kiosks have also created challenges for consumers who need extra assistance in stores.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And we know how important it is for our stores to have a good shopping experience. As we're competing with online brands, we want to make sure folks continue to come to our big box stores.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Older adults and particularly individuals with disabilities may need assistance bagging items, helping to navigate some of the screen, and the technology needed for self checkout, and can be a struggle again for the lone worker who is trying to manage all of this at self checkout and for off too often alone.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
I will close by saying that more workers in stores mean more people employed who spend their dollars in our communities and help to grow our thriving economy. And it's better for service when we ensure that we have a handle on emerging technologies and can integrate these two things, workers and technologies, in safe and fair ways.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Also with us today is Alex Quezada a grocery store worker in Alameda County who will be a witness, as well as Sara Flocks with the California Labor Federation. Jassy Grewal is here for with UFCW is here for technical questions if you all have them.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you very much. Witnesses.
- Alex Quezada
Person
Good afternoon. My name is Alex Quezada. I am a grocery store worker at Luckys and a former Safeway employee. Other grocery workers like myself and I have witnessed firsthand the reduction in staffing due to self checkout and the increase in workplace violence. Personally, I have been attacked by a customer before.
- Alex Quezada
Person
Whenever I've worked self checkout alone, I've been responsible for supervising not just the self checkout machines, but the entire like, checkout area myself, which means that I monitor the self checkout stations while also performing other tasks like running the cashier kiosk, performing manager duties, selling lotto tickets, processing money orders, running backup customer service for refunds, writing rain checks, price checks, also liquor lockup and cabinet or handling customer service phone lines and answering the many questions that customers have in the process.
- Alex Quezada
Person
It's going like a million miles per hour. Customers already have tons of issues using the machines as they are because they are very sensitive and sometimes those alerts need to be removed, some of which can only be cleared with manager approval. And then when they lock up, more customers have to wait and they just get irritated.
- Alex Quezada
Person
I've had them yell at me for being too slow. I've had them complain at me that the purchasing system sucks and sometimes that's caused customers to get physical. When I've left self checkout unattended, some customers have just stopped scanning their items altogether and just walk away, or some will scan some items while leaving some items unscanned.
- Alex Quezada
Person
And I believe in order to be for the self checkout area to be properly managed, there needs to be more than one worker at least, too. I think having additional workers in the self checkout area ensures more safety for us and will lead to less violence. And we as workers are able to provide better service. The company is putting us in harm's way because they are choosing not to safely set off the store. Just having that, I think, would make the stores a lot safer.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you.
- Sara Flocks
Person
Miss Madam Chair Members. Sara Flocks, California Labor Federation. We're a proud co sponsor of this Bill. It is actually part of a package of five bills to put worker centered guardrails on the deployment of technology in the workplace.
- Sara Flocks
Person
And I'm going to talk about one part of this Bill, which goes back to Alex's story, which is that when self checkout was put into use in grocery stores. I don't think there was a lot of thought by either the developers of the product or by retailers of what the impact would be of what frustrated customers would do to checkers, of what the opportunity for theft would be.
- Sara Flocks
Person
And that lack of consideration led actually to UFCW and California Labor Federation to support the Assemblymember Ma Bill, which banned the use of self checkout for alcohol and tobacco because that was one area where we saw there could be abuse of this system. And so this Bill really looks at, there's the staffing aspect, but the other is about the notice of the use of consequential workplace technology.
- Sara Flocks
Person
And really the goal of this is to have employers think about what this technology is and then give workers and customers notice of any kind of technology they're going to put, they're going to use that automates or eliminates job functions or uses electronic monitoring of job functions. And what's this technology we're talking about?
- Sara Flocks
Person
We're not talking about, like the office says, refrigeration. I think that was very well outlined in the analysis. This is technology like digital smart carts that are being tested at Whole Foods in San Mateo. It's about the Amazon just get up and go technology.
- Sara Flocks
Person
It's about the robots they already have to stock and to do customer service: Tally, Marty Nivee, badger that do facial recognition, computer vision, retinal scanning, all kinds of data collection, automating of tasks. These are already in grocery stores.
- Sara Flocks
Person
And what we want this notice to do is let customers know, let workers know in advance of this putting in the store. And we hope because it's not an impact assessment, but that it's a small step towards retailers thinking about who's going to be advantaged by this, who's going to be disadvantaged.
- Sara Flocks
Person
What about the unbanked seniors, the disabled, non English speakers, youth who might have credit cards? What are all of the impacts? Think about it. Are we creating a two tier system where some people can breeze through and others are standing in line because you have to go to the grocery store?
- Sara Flocks
Person
We actually want people to go to the grocery store and not go online. So we think this is a very important Bill. It's a very important first step, and we urge your AYE vote. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you very much. Do we have any other witnesses in support?
- Glenn Backes
Person
Good afternoon. Glenn Backes for the Prosecutors Alliance, proud co-sponsors as a crime prevention measure. Thank you.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Catherine Bracy, Tech Equity Collaborative in support
- Mariko Yoshihara
Person
Mariko Yoshihara on behalf of the California Coalition for Worker Power in Support.
- Tiffany Whiten
Person
Tiffany Whiten with SEIU California in support.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right, thank you. How about primary witnesses in opposition?
- Margaret Gladstein
Person
Madam Chair Members Margaret Gladstein, Capitol Advocacy, here in opposition on behalf of the California Retailers Association. We oppose this Bill, and unfortunately, we do not think the amendments address our concerns. I would note that the author made a wonderful observation, which is that the market is already helping stores, or stores are already adapting their self checkout policies based on what each store demands and what each brand wants to do. We think that's the appropriate place to do it.
- Margaret Gladstein
Person
Even with the amendments, the Bill will still require, will still limit retailers adoption of new technology in our stores. In California, we don't require law firms, lobbying firms, or even ticket sellers to provide the type of notice that this Bill would require. SB 1446 is overly prescriptive in other ways as well.
- Margaret Gladstein
Person
Limiting the number and type of items that can be purchased at self checkout will be difficult to enforce and will only frustrate customers. In one store, they may be able to buy certain cosmetics through self checkout, and the other store, they won't be able to. Same is true.
- Margaret Gladstein
Person
It will confuse our employees because the items they can buy will be different from store to store. It's also overplaced. The staffing requirement is also unworkable. Retailers currently offer self checkout lanes in a manner that reflects the clientele of that location. We're a customer focused industry, and we recognize that there's no one size fits all approach.
- Margaret Gladstein
Person
Setting a specific ratio of employees to self checkout line undermines that flexibility that stores need and must have to meet the needs of their customers and their employees. And for these reasons, we ask for a no vote. Thank you.
- Daniel Conway
Person
Good afternoon. Daniel Conway with the California Grocers Association, here to express our strong opposition to SB 1446. As my colleague made clear, there's numerous concerns that we have with this Bill. Fundamentally, just the way that it looks to regulate our store operations, we think is unnecessary.
- Daniel Conway
Person
As was mentioned, there's really no one size fits all approach from location to location, let alone over the course of the business day. The needs of our customers change, and so we want to be able to run our stores in a way that reflects that.
- Daniel Conway
Person
I think more importantly, some of the comments that were made by the gentleman in support of the Bill, I think highlight a lot of the concerns that we have, frankly, which is already, we face concerns in our stores around retail theft, around conflicts with customers, because, frankly, it is getting harder and harder to run a grocery store in the State of California.
- Daniel Conway
Person
I was in here 5 hours ago this morning talking about a series of retail theft bills that were going to, I think, help solve that problem. Unfortunately, this Bill was never a part of that package, and I don't think it does anything to meaningfully address those concerns in a way that's going to have any kind of real impact on our stores.
- Daniel Conway
Person
Ultimately, at the end of the day, what this does is this will codify some of the worst things we saw from COVID where our employees are asked to enforce the law on our customers. So we're already hearing about conflict in stores. I think this bill's only going to lead to more conflict, particularly with the limits on the number of items you can get and the types of items you can get. I don't want our employees to have to explain to a parent why they have to go into a different line because they bought baby formula.
- Daniel Conway
Person
Last thing I'll say. I do appreciate the amendments from the Committee. They did a lot to kind of narrow and clarify the Bill. But unfortunately, again, I think it just highlights how overreaching and troubling this Bill is. And frankly, it's overly narrow. It's focused on grocery and pharmacy. We are a late adopter industry.
- Daniel Conway
Person
We don't invest in technology unless we're absolutely sure it's going to benefit our employees and our customers. So to be focusing on us, I think, is not the best use of this body's time. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. Do we have any other witnesses in opposition?
- Laura Bennett
Person
Laura Bennett on behalf of the California Chamber of Commerce in opposition.
- Chris Micheli
Person
Madam Chair. Chris Micheli. On behalf of the Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce in respectful opposition. Thank you.
- Jamie Huff
Person
Good afternoon. Jamie Huff. On behalf of the Civil Justice Association of California, respectfully opposed. Thanks.
- Madison Dwelley
Person
Madison Dwelley Pigozzo with Political Solutions. On behalf of Target in opposition.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Dylan Hoffman. On behalf of TechNet, respectfully opposed.
- Stephanie Morwell
Person
Good afternoon. Stephanie Morwell. On behalf of the Consumer Technology Association in opposition.
- Dominic Di Mare
Person
Good afternoon. Dominic Di Mare here. On behalf of the San Diego Regional Chamber of Commerce, in opposition.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Hi. Madam Chair. Out of order was in Senate Judicial. Robert Harrell with the Consumer Federation of California in strong support of this Bill.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. All right. Do we have questions or comments from the Committee? Assembly Member Wicks.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to thank the author for bringing the Bill forward. Really appreciate it and your sponsors and would love to make a motion to move the Bill.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate what you do. I saw you earlier today, judiciary. You're concerned about the workers, and I understand where you're coming from, as I'm sure we all have experienced self checkout. And this reminds me of maybe many years ago, I don't know how many people remember?
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
But when ATM machines were developed and introduced, there was a lot of adaptation issues. People. I mean, change is hard for some people, and particularly technology, and we live in rapid technological change every moment, every day. I can say that I can empathize with those who may have been frustrated at first.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Know you bring your own bag, and then it tells you to move the bag. And I would say help. And I was glad, and I still am glad that there is a person standing there to correct my ways. But technology in this case is a good thing, if not in many cases. And I think it allowed me. I just used it this weekend at a grocery store, and it was faster than the regular checkout line, and I was in and out with my 10 items and no time. So I think convenience and change is sometimes difficult.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
I have often spoken in these kinds of hearings where we're imposing more rules, more regulations, more constraints on business today, and I just think it's going in the wrong direction. I actually think from a labor standpoint, to consider, while business has to operate, be successful, and grocery store profit margins are very thin, and so they're always looking at ways to keep food costs low and pass those savings on to consumers.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
If we're going to be requiring, adding more people to handle the self checkout, I just think that that is probably counterproductive. So I can't support this. I support that you're trying to make sure that our workers in our stores, retail, wherever, have safe working conditions, and I encourage you to do that.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
I don't think this is a safety factor. I think it's a constraint factor, and it's one more encumbrance on doing business in California. And when you see grocery stores, Albertsons and whatever, it was a Safeway. Just recently announced a consolidation. Stores have to consolidate because costs are going up for all businesses, and so they consolidate.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
And that's not something you like, none of us like, because some workers are losing their position. So be mindful of. My own recommendation is, but you're trying to protect your workers, but the long term, be careful. What you wish for is those jobs may just go away at some point when the grocery store goes away. So that's. I support worker conditions being safe, but I also support technology to make our lives convenient and efficient. So thank you.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Thank you, Assembly Member Patterson.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Thank you. Well, my wife was a Member of UFCW, actually, here locally, and I would often hear, you know, some. Some interesting things about, you know, being on the job, and it's definitely not as it's not an easy job at times, for sure. But also we are blessed with four children, one of who's with me here today, making things a little bit more complicated. But one of the things we really value, I think, is our time when we're busing our kids around, because now we're just basically free labor for them.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
We need employment law, by the way, for that, but, you know, bussing them around and our time is really important to us. And I think going into a store, like any store, and being able to have options for us to basically get in and out as soon as possible is great. I'm actually excited about being able to just put things in your cart. And actually there's things like at, I think, some of the sports stadiums where you just put it up there and it scans it and then you just pay.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
I'm personally excited about that, but I just want to say two anecdotes, and then I have one question or one more anecdote, and then I have a question. I was meeting with a Mcdonald's franchise owner yesterday, and we were just, I just was happened to ask him about how technology has changed the operation of his businesses.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
And he owns several, and one of them, you know, they each have about 60 employees each. And I was asking him how the technology really changed his business, and he said, well, really it hasn't. We have more jobs than we used to, actually. We just redeploy them other places to make the customer experience better. And I thought that that was an interesting point.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
But the other thing, I just wonder in terms of warehouse stores, and I'm always in support of exempting as many people as possible out of a Bill, but what was the thought process of, and you might have said it, I came in kind of late about exempting the warehouse stores.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
So, and I'll have Jassy speak to it. We did exempt. Warehouses are not in this Bill. We're focusing on grocery retail stores that are over 15,000 sqft. But I'll have Jassy speak to that warehouse piece.
- Jaskiran "Jassy" Grewal
Person
Yeah. So I believe your question is regarding membership stores. So it's a totally different model. I think if you look at your Safeway or Albertsons, there's no membership to come in. It's a very open and public place. Oftentimes a lot of folks congregate within grocery stores.
- Jaskiran "Jassy" Grewal
Person
But when you look at like a Costco or Sam's club, it is a membership model. Folks are checking receipts on the way out. So it's a different model than your typical Safeway or Albertsons but they aren't exempt from the technology notice piece. So they are still covered under any technology or notice that is required.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Okay. I actually think when you, well, at least the Costco that I go to on many occasions when people walk in there, it just seems like, you know, a whole new attitude and being, go over them and, you know, as they're rushing to get their groceries and stuff.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
So, so I just think, you know, it's, I understand the model, but if, you know, again, it makes sense to exempt, you know, certain businesses in all sorts of laws. I've talked about it before. You can make a public policy for it. But I think it, it does concern me that we're targeting really some of the grocery stores. And does this apply also? It's a certain amount of chains, right. Certain number of locations?
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Well, not a certain number of locations, but a certain definition of what we mean by grocery store and what we mean by superstores based on square footage.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Square footage. Okay, great. Well, great. Well, thank you. Thank you for the presentation, and I'll report back to my wife on the outcome.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
So thank you, Assembly Member Lowenthal.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Thank you to the author for bringing this very important legislation forward. And I cannot recall if I had asked already when I sat through and spoke in Labor Committee if I had asked to be a co author. And if I have not, I would like to be added if you would have me as a co author on this Bill. I would like to ask the good chairperson from Hayward my forgiveness to have to listen to my comments once again, since I was a guest in the Labor Committee when this was presented.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And I want to thank my colleague from Rockland, because every time he speaks, I learn something more about his family and what an interesting family they are. You know, I invite you to join me at the Laker game anytime. On me. Would love to have you down. And when we're at the crypto.com arena, we will go into the Amazon stores that exist right now that have around 200 transponders on the ceiling that are monitoring your every move.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Since I know privacy is an important thing to you, and the most salient thing to notice there is that the prices in those stores are no different than the prices elsewhere where you have checkouts inside the arena. And so what that is, my friend, is wealth consolidation. There is no consumer benefit at all.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
There is only a lack of labor associated with this. And finally, to my colleague from Newport Beach, I challenge you on saying that technology is a good thing. Technology overall can be a good thing when it's implemented and utilized properly.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
I'm very much concerned, as are so many Californians and dare I say outside the state, about how automation is being implemented and what it's doing to the fabric of communities. This Bill is about safety. Thank goodness that they are bringing up the safety component because that is real. But there are also other components.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
What is it doing to the fabric of a community when you don't have people working there? What is it doing to the economy when you have less workers? I disagree completely that grocery stores are operating on a very thin margin, as a matter of fact, for the very tough thank you.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
That grocery store workers had for being frontline workers and getting Covid and bringing Covid back to their homes. There was a $4 billion gain by Kroger in that year, as a matter of fact, and did a $1 billion stock buyback. Instead of creating better working conditions for their employees and instead implementing more automation.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
We are going to continue to have problems in the State of California until we have a plan on automation. Point blank, we don't have a plan. And so until we have a plan, we're going to continue to see bills like these that I will co author and support or carry all day long until we have a plan.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And that plan has to be very intentional in studying what are the impacts on communities, what are the impacts on economy, what is the impact on worker safety and neighborhood safety, and the lack of that plan. And this affects more than grocery workers in my district.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
It's a big, big issue as far as the ILWU and the longshoremen and the goods movement sector and truckers and so forth. And this is all woven together. And we have to consider that it is. That's not to discount the very, very, very important tenants of this Bill, very specific to this Bill.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
But again, we are going to continue to play defense in this state and have to react to these individual situations until we throw down and actually create a plan on automation where we identify jobs that are apparel and what it will cost all of us to take those jobs off the grid and where we should be intentional about putting jobs on the grid. I will be supporting this Bill. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. Thank you very much. You'd probably like to second the Bill too, right? Oh, did you? Okay, I'm sorry. I'm afraid not. We are going to allow the Senator to close, please.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
Thank you very much, Assembly Member, ma'am, chair, and thank you to my dear colleagues in the Assembly. I absolutely appreciate all the comments that have been made said here. This is a really tough job, and it's getting tougher by the day where workers are encountering these new technologies. And unfortunately, all of these issues are colliding. Right.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
This issue of worker safety, workplace violence, the issue of retail theft, and the issues of how do we ensure that as we're integrating technology, that we are not displacing our community Members, who we rely on to have a safe and thriving community who pay sales tax, property tax, income tax, all of the things that a machine just simply doesn't do.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
We have to put the workers first. And workers have pointed out these issues. They've asked us to address it. The first self checkout came in the 1990s. We haven't really had a substantive conversation about it now, and we're having it now because these issues are colliding that we have to deal with.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
We are always happy to work with the opposition on this. I think we continue to work on it. You know, appreciate the amendments that have been made thus far. But this is about making sure that our communities are safe, our workers are safe, and that we're looking at retail theft upstream. Right.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And downstream, we know we're working on safer communities and there are going to be communities of color that are going to carry the burden of those bills.
- Lola Smallwood-Cuevas
Legislator
And if we have 16 more times theft, retail theft, happening at our self checkout, we need industry to look at that and to look upstream and figure out how to be part of the solution with all of us. So with that, I thank you for your comments, and I respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you very much. And if I could have the secretary please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
That Bill has four votes, and we will keep the roll open. Thank you very much. All right, we are. While we have Senator Padilla coming up, if we could please call the roll for the three bills we missed and the consent calendar. I think we have two. We have two Wiener bills and Caballero.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Oh, no, just two of the Wiener. Okay, so we have a motion by Assembly Member Wicks and a second by Assembly Member Ortega. And this is for the Wiener Bill. And is this. We have SB 532 and SB 961. So the motion is do pass as amended to appropriations.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Do pass as amended for 532.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Okay, all right, so let's do the roll call on 532 then. Okay.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
That's 70, and that Bill is out. And then let's move over to SB 96. Move. A motion by Assembly Member Wicks, a second by Assembly Member Ortega, and the motion is do passes amended to appropriations. To appropriations.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
That Bill is out, and consent calendar is motion by Assemblymember Wick.
- Committee Secretary
Person
SB 961 has five votes, so we need six for it to be out.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Oh, okay. So SB five votes. We will leave the roll open. Thank you.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Okay, that vote is seven to zero, and that Bill is out, but we will keep the roll open. Senator Padilla, we are going to start with SB 893, please.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And Members. I want to begin by thanking the Committee for working at my staff, and we will be accepting Committee amendments.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Senate Bill 893 would require the government operations agency, the governor's Office of Business and Economic Development, and the Department of Technology to collaborate with academic institutions across the state and establishing the California Artificial Intelligence Research hub.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
California AI Research Hub would further the research, development, deployment, and application of AI technology for the public good by facilitating access to computing resources and data for academic institutions, as well as developing workforce development opportunities. Certainly, our actions will have a direct impact on a tool that stands to change our world in ways we haven't seen since the dawn of the Internet age.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
At the same time, it's important that research and development around AI is guided by strong principles and guardrails that protect privacy, advance security, and address risks and potential harms to society. Today, private companies such as Google, Microsoft, Meta have led the research and development of AI technology.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
This is because this development requires vast amounts of resources and capital that are not available at comparable scale to any single entity alone. There is no way for them to match the financial might of corporations working on the frontier of this technology.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
However, this state has the world's premier institutions of higher learning, led by some of the greatest minds in their fields. Their talent is formidable, divided. Imagine just what breakthroughs they could pioneer if their efforts were united. California, with our vast network of institutions generating research for the public good, can be at the forefront of development and research of AI technologies and ensure that we maximize benefits to the public good.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
As the fourth largest economy in the world, California can see, can use the power and influence of our market to lead the development of ethical and responsible AI technology that centers the public's interest. By addressing the gap in computing resources, facilitating access to data, and harnessing the power of our world class network of research institutions.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
By harnessing the power of our academic institutions through a California AI research hub, California can lead the democratization of this space of AI research and development with public service and public good at its heart.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
We cannot afford to cede the frontier to states like New York, Maryland and others who have put forth similar proposals after the introduction of our legislation. The research hub is an exciting blend of our incredible academic talent, groundbreaking advancements in this space already happening here, and the financial heft of our state.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
This hub can become a tool to foster innovation that we cannot even dream of. Yet it is up to us to make sure the public remains at the heart of this effort. With me today is Daniel Zhang, senior manager with the Stanford Institute for Human Centered Artificial Intelligence.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. You may start.
- Daniel Zhang
Person
Madam Chair and Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak in support of SB 893. Government academic partnerships have historically driven American innovation. Public investment in long term, curiosity driven research at universities has led to critical technologies in GPS, Mris, and the Internet.
- Daniel Zhang
Person
California's universities, in particular, have been pivotal in developing new technologies, including AIH. However, AI has created shift in where research into technology is occurring. The latest AI models require significant investment in compute power and access to quality data set, which at the moment only private companies have the resources to obtain.
- Daniel Zhang
Person
Our latest AI index report showed that in 2017 it cost Google $930 to train its transformer model, while five years later it cost nearly 200 million to train its latest model, Gemini Ultra. This trend risks concentrating the future of AI in the hands of a few well resourced players.
- Daniel Zhang
Person
While in this research is one needed perspective, expanding the capacity of academic institutions to conduct AI research is vital for ensuring that AI benefits all of humanity. This is why Stanford HAI has championed for public investment AI research since I accepted five years ago, including on the federal level.
- Daniel Zhang
Person
National AI Research Resource or NAIRR, a partnership between academia, government, civil society and industry to expand equitable access to computational data and training resources for researchers. While the federal efforts are important, more public investment is needed.
- Daniel Zhang
Person
California, home to four of the top 10 national universities in research spending, is uniquely positioned to lead in public investment in AI research. Critical investment from the state holds the potential to catalyze even more AI research here. For this reason, Stanford supports SB 893, Senator Padilla's proposal to create a California AI research hub.
- Daniel Zhang
Person
This Bill would direct the state government to make essential investment, including providing compute power and greater access to state data for researchers. It recognized California's strength and is a positive step towards ensuring California continues to lead in developing responsible AI. I'm hopeful the Committee will move this proposal forward. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right, do we have other witnesses in support?
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Catherine Bracy, Tech Equity Collaborative in support.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Dylan Hoffman, on behalf of Technet in support.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Naomi Padron on behalf of the Computer and Communications Industry Association, we're pleased to support the Bill in print, but we are reviewing the amendments that are listed in the analysis.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Thank you, Mario Guerrero. On behalf of the University of California in support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Do we have any opposition to this Bill? No. Look at that. Good work, Mister Padilla. Seeing no opposition, we'll bring it back to the dais. Any questions, concerns, comments? Miss Dixon,
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
I think this is an important Bill and I will support it. So thank you. Senator. Quick question of the chair. We're all experiencing many AI related pieces of legislation. Can we look at this in a whole? I think this is a holistic type Bill, so I'm supportive. But there's so many pieces of this.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Maybe we could talk about an information session once we see all these bills are overlapping, duplicative or maybe not. I mean, I don't know if any of us sitting in this room, except for this gentleman here from Stanford, knows exactly what were the pieces that we are individually assessing and good or bad.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
And so again, in the spirit of technology, this is something that I believe we all need to understand better and I hope we can be more informed. I mean, this is excellent and this is a good Bill. I haven't seen another Bill like this for the research...
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Oh, my goodness.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
So I just wonder if that makes any sense as we go forward. How do we group them together and so we address the similarities.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yeah, I appreciate the question. It's a really important one. And I will take a point of personal privilege, as I've done before, and give a huge shout out to Committee staff, both on this Committee, Slater and Josh, but also Christian and Senate judiciary, who is focused as well on artificial intelligence legislation, who we have been in constant contact with.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
As the bills sort of get to their final stage, which is where we are in the legislative process. One of the things that is happening in coordination with the Senate is figuring out, for example, from a regulatory perspective, they all started out in different agencies, for example. And that doesn't make a ton of sense to your point.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And so we are working hard as committees to make sure we're lining them all up in ways that make sense that there's not overlap. You know, some of that as, for example, we had three watermarking bills that moved through this Committee.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I want to give a huge shout out to our staff who worked really hard to make sure they were consistent and aligned, because that is critically important to the innovation that is happening that I think all of us support, although we also want to make our community safe. And another Senate kudos here.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I am an Assembly Member giving lots of Senate kudos to Senator Wiener, whose Bill that we heard last week, 1047, also includes an academic hub in a different way. So not inconsistent with this one, but also focused on how we use UC Berkeley to create innovation as well.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And so there are a couple bills that do this similar piece focused in different areas, but we are paying attention to all of that, making sure they line up, making sure California is driving this bus in the right direction. And they know that the Governor would expect no less.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And when they get to his desk, if they are not in such condition, we will not expect good results. So that's the goal. Miss Ortega,
- Liz Ortega
Legislator
To your Assembly Member Dixon, to your point in terms of having information and information session, I would like to offer one that is going to be happening jointly with Labor Committee and privacy Committee, just to talk about labor and technology and what we're seeing in the workforce and how that's going to have an impact on the bills today and in the future.
- Liz Ortega
Legislator
So when we come back into session, we have a little bit more information to go on and maybe revisit some of this stuff that we've talked about in this Committee and that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And that's August 7, just to finish the. Yeah, and we've done two. One was a General informational hearing that was focused mostly actually on academics, which I think was great because it was a real deep dive into AI.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I know the Senate did the same in Mister Dodd's Committee and we also did one with the entertainment Committee on the effects in the entertainment industry, but it's something we should continue to do because it's a very, we are not experts in artificial intelligence, I'll say for myself, and we do need to know enough to get this right. So I appreciate the inquiry and all the love for your Bill in the inquiry. Mister Padilla, any other questions, comments? Mister Patterson,
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
I suspect we'll have conflicting language we might have to work on when we're both on the floor because I have legislation that came through this Committee on the use of private information by government agencies. Actually the Information Practices act is referenced in there. So we'll looking forward if we have to work together to figuring those out when it gets to the floor. Hopefully knock on Wood, both of them.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So great seeing no additional comments or questions. Mister Padilla, would you like to close?
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Thank you Madam Chair Members, for the conversation. I do as well. Assemblymember, hope the same and I would respectfully ask for an aye vote we.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Do have a. I think we got a quorum while I was gone. Oh, so we need a motion. Motion. Miss Dixon moves, and Miss Ortega seconds. Call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
We have four. So we'll put it on call for the absent members. We will move to your next bill, SB 892, when you're ready.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members, I want to begin by thanking you and your staff for working with us on this Bill, by indicating that I'll accept the committee amendments with the understanding, I think that we both have, that we will continue working together closely.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
And I would love to work side by side with you on drafting to address two critical pieces, the definitions utilized on this bill so that it better aligns with the governor's executive order and delaying the development of the procurement standard after the adoption of regulations by the privacy agency or of adoption of a statewide framework.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
These two points are critical, I think we agree, as we seek to develop a standard that safeguards and protects the risks associated with technology, while also ensuring that the standards we develop are actually implementable. And I appreciate your agreement to do so, Madam Chair.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
SB 892, as proposed to be amended, requires the Department of Technology to develop and adopt regulations to create a procurement standard for the acquisition of automated decision making tools. Specifically. First, it would require the development and adoption of procurement standard that includes risk assessment, appropriate risk controls, an equity assessment, and adverse incident monitoring when procuring such systems.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Second, it would require engagement and consultation with a diversity of stakeholders, including those most affected by government use of these systems, such as public trust and safety experts, community based organizations, civil society groups, workers, and academic researchers.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
As you well know, AI technology that is procured and deployed responsibly has the opportunity to revolutionize not just how we administer government services, but also our entire economy.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
This technology can also pose significant risks to the safety, privacy, and civil rights of Californians, especially when the technology is used to assist or replace human decision making in critical sectors such as housing, employment, and healthcare.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
In order to deploy automated decision making tools responsibly, it is critical that we diligently analyze the risks of these systems posed prior to their deployment, procurement and deployment. As the applications of these systems will be varied, the risk assessment and subsequent risk controls must be tailored and be unique to the technology in question.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
This step is a critical step as we determine what AI products are safe for government use. Not only will this strict scrutiny protect the state from liability, but it will also help assure the public that the technology has been assessed with their safety in mind.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Indeed, we need to implement these risk assessment tests as soon as possible, as issues with this technology have already occurred. In 2022, an LAO report found that California's Employment Development Department procured an automated review software that flagged 1.1 million claims as fraudulent, meaning workers stopped receiving their benefits critical to themselves and to their families.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Ultimately, as you well know, more than half of these claims were confirmed as illegitimate, as legitimate. Excuse me. The hardship that these erroneous flags created could have been foreseen and avoided through the proper risk assessment prior before it was granted access to control a lifeline to millions of California families.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
By enacting safeguards proposed in 892, California can set a national standard that drives innovation of AI tech and services while protecting the public from risks posed by automated decision making systems. I'm pleased to welcome with me Catherine Bracy, CEO and co founder of Tech Equity Collaborative.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Thank you Senator Padilla and members of the committee for inviting me to speak about SB 892 and the importance of setting standards for public sector procurement of AI systems. I'm Catherine Bracy, founder and CEO of TechEquity.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
TechEquity is a research and policy advocacy organization focused on ensuring that tech is responsible for building prosperity for all and is held accountable for the harms it creates in our communities.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
We're proud to support SB 892 to ensure that as California considers the adoption of AI systems, we established common sense guardrails around the use of this technology. The state government is rightly focused on reducing backlogs and improving services for our communities. Technology can be a useful and important tool to achieve those efficiencies, as Miss Dixon said earlier.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
But we also think it's important to learn from several examples where the rapid adoption of technology, often without serious input from public sector workers and communities, created massive delays, wrongful denials, and problems that negatively impacted constituents seeking services, leaving taxpayers to bear the brunt of fixing these costly mistakes.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Senator Padilla mentioned the issues with the system that EDD employed, flagging over half of the recipients inaccurately as fraudulent. This experience was not isolated to California. The same algorithm has been sold to 42 states and is now the subject of a complaint filed at the FTC.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Without the guardrails that SB 892 provides, California may be taking a step backward in the quality of service delivery when using AI. What distinguishes the public sector from private actors who develop and sell this technology is that the public sector is responsible for providing services to everyone and ensuring that those services are provisioned safely and fairly.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
That's why it is common that we have specific en heightened procurement standards for public contracts. People count on the state in some of the most difficult moments of their lives. The public's trust in government's ability to deliver these critical services has never been more important.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
SB 892 recognizes this reality and recognizes California's ability to set a world leading standard for the use of AI systems in emerging technology and high risk environments. For these reasons, we ask for your aye vote today. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Any additional witnesses in support of SB 892?
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Good afternoon. Danny Kando-Kaiser on behalf of the Electronic Frontier Foundation in support thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Hi, Yari with Oakland privacy in support.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
Rachel Bhagwat with ACLU California Action word of support if amended position. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Anyone in opposition to this bill?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
It's okay. You're on a roll today.
- Laura Bennett
Person
I'm gonna do my best impersonation of Ronak Daylami today, but Courtney's going first.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
Madam Chair and members Courtney Jensen and on behalf of TechCA. TechCA's members span from small businesses to global ones that contract with state for various IT related projects.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
Prior to this committee, TechCA did not have a formal position on SB 892 and had provided the author's office with some feedback on the right balance between regulations and state contracting of ADTAE. We did not oppose the setting of standards.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
Unfortunately, because of the committee amendments beginning on page nine, we will now be moving into an opposed position. We appreciate the comments that the author started with and the agreement with committee to continue discussing the procurement ban in this bill and the broad definitions and the commitment to continuing to work.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
We are specifically concerned about the broad definition of ADT and the amendment banning the state from procuring broadly defined ADT until regulations are completed by the privacy agency enforcing CDT regulations to essentially mirror privacy agency regulations. This means that if the bill were to pass, the state would not could not procure technology that today is making government more efficient and it is allowing agencies and departments to respond to your constituents in a faster, more accurate manner. This ban presupposes that any procurement of ADT is concerning, which is simply not true.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
The language also makes it unclear if an ADT contract previously entered into by the state could be renewed prior to regulations being completed. The amendments will stop procurement of ADT projects for the state for at least a year, probably longer, given the historical delays and regulations of the privacy agency.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
The addition of the privacy agency and requiring some mirroring of CDT regulations with the agency is also incredibly concerning. Privacy agency is an independent consumer privacy agency focused on private business in interaction with consumers.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
They are not an expert on state procurement and to now put them in a position of somehow overseeing or regulating state procurement of ADT is confusing. Agencies and departments and businesses contracting the state are used to working with dgs, govops, CDT regulations and guidelines. We often interact with these agencies and departments to ensure appropriate and safe contracting.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
So we strongly urge this committee to reconsider those amendments. Appreciate the commitment to continuing to work together. Believe there is a time and a place that these ADT projects need to continue moving forward in appropriate and safe ways to ensure that we're using technology that is to the benefit of California constituents. So thank you.
- Laura Bennett
Person
Good afternoon, chair and members Laura Bennett on behalf of California Chamber of Commerce. Senator Padilla, we did not have a position on the former bill in print, but like TechCA, with the amendments taken in committee today, we do have to take an opposed position. We want to again align our comments with Tech CA.
- Laura Bennett
Person
We have concerns in our that were addressed in 2930 as it relates to the definitions of consequential decisions, ADT and substantial factor. Those do pull over to this bill.
- Laura Bennett
Person
With that alignment, I want to also kind of back up the statement by Courtney that says that we've been waiting for regulations by the privacy agency since July 1 of 2022. We are concerned that this alignment with, with those regulations will further delay those regulations and also have CDT align their regulations.
- Laura Bennett
Person
As Courtney said, it could be every year to do that. We just want to make sure that we can still do procurement projects with the safety in mind and we oppose your bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Anyone else here in opposition to the bill? Wait, hold on. There you go.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Dylan Hoffman on behalf of TechNet, apologies for the late opposition. Align my comments with TechCA and Cal Chamber in opposition.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no further opposition, we'll bring it back to the dais. Questions? Comments? Concerns? Seeing none. So I think, I mean, I will say one point just to highlight, which is the privacy agency has already released regulations. This bill will not become law, if all goes well, until January. And we anticipate those regulations being finalized.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
They were supposed to be late spring, so they're coming relatively soon, which is why we felt confident that this was not some new regulatory setup that we're beginning. Actually, it's something that is well into the progress for those who are tracking the privacy agency, which I know the opposition is since we've discussed it.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So I think that's an important thing to note about wanting to align with that, because I think the goal of the privacy agency regulations is to protect California consumers, which is what we as a government should be doing with our purchasing of adts, as well the alignment that's happening here. And with that, would you like to close?
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
Thank you very much, Madam Chair and members. Again, just to reiterate, I think it is vitally important to get it right and to address the delivery of government safeguards and services and operations in this space.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
That said, I also look forward and appreciate the chair's willingness to engage directly on trying to continue dialogue on these two points of concern. In terms of the drafting, I will note, I proud of the fact that heretofore, this bill has enjoyed wide bipartisan support and no opposition.
- Steve Padilla
Legislator
So I'm hoping that we can continue working forward and get to a place where we can do. We can implement a policy that benefits and protects all Californians. And with that, I would respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Great. Do we have a motion? Motion and a second. Let's call the roll
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number three, SB 892, by Senator Padilla. The motion is do pass as amended, to the appropriation committee. [Roll Call]
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Padilla it is on call. We need more members. Mister Umberg, and I have heard you have already moved through 50 bills in your committee, sir. So you set a standard for the rest of us to follow.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
No, what we're trying to do is we're trying to compete for the most uncomfortable hearing room and.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Oh, I'm winning.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
No, you don't win. You got to come see us, and you'll see Mister Lowenthal was there. He knows how uncomfortable that hearing room is. So, a couple other comments. Thank you very much for your assistance, Madam Chair, and for the assistance of the ever talented, extremely well educated Josh Tosney for his help on our bill. Here's what this is.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
SB 918, for anyone watching.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
It is SB 918. Yes. Yes, SB 918. It requires social media platforms to have a telephone hotline available at all times for law enforcement agencies to make a timely request for information. It also compels social media platforms to compel to comply with search warrants within 72 hours if a search warrant is provided.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
The platform by law enforcement agency and the subject of the search warrant has an account on the social media platforms. And here's why.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Here's why this is so important is because when there's an injury, a fatality, God forbid, a fatality in connection with, for example, a crime, and in particular a poisoning, a drug poisoning or overdose, that law enforcement can act quickly to do two things.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
One, to find and potentially arrest the perpetrator, but also to prevent additional harm, so that if there's a person who's distributing, for example, oxycodone that's laced with fentanyl, we want to stop that right away. And so that's the purpose. The purpose is so that they are attentive and so they respond.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Here with me, actually, sadly, it is Mister Samuel Chapman of the Parent Collective. Mister Chapman has his own personal narrative as why this bill is so important. And I would ask that you forward an opportunity to testify.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yes. And just before we move on, Senator, are you accepting?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We accept all the amendments. Thank you. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I knew your glowing remarks about Josh must.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Yes, I was hoping he wasn't here so his head wouldn't swell, but it was unavoidable.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you, sir. When you're ready.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
Yes. Hi. Thank you. This is my son, Sammy. He passed away at 16. He was on Snapchat and the algorithm drove a drug dealer to him, offered him a counterfeit drug, said that he delivered at the bottom, and the lethal dose was delivered to our house like a pizza.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
After we were asleep, we found our son dead on the floor the next day, tried to resuscitate him and failed. The MTs came and the firemen, and they failed. Then the coroner and the police, and we said to the police, let's call Snapchat and find out about this profile and go arrest this person.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
We were in Santa Monica at the time, which is the same police force that Snapchat has, because they're in Santa Monica. And Detective Paul now of the Santa Monica police force told me that they don't bother calling anymore because Snapchat doesn't return their calls and doesn't help with these crimes. And that's why this bill is so important.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
He told us, a family of a dead child, that they'd be back in three months when the toxicology report came back, if it showed anything. And that was the way our case had to be handled, because the information that was needed is on a platform that doesn't cooperate.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
I since found out from other parents in my situation, that this is the case with local police all over the country, and that Snapchat and other platforms throw up hurdles, they do not help the police, and that's why this is so important.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
Parents like me who have lost a child, were having our subpoenas delayed or kicked back for missing a middle initial. The protections afforded these platforms under the First Amendment and section 230 C of the Communications Decency act should not extend to frustrating law enforcement efforts. This bill should not even be necessary.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
But it is, and California is leading the way in technology and has a special responsibility to our citizens to keep them safe from any dangers our companies may be facilitating. We are also leading the way in fentanyl poisoning, and social media is the main delivery mechanism for that.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
The leading cause of death in the United States for our young people. Parents like me have been through the worst human experience, losing a child. Social media companies must take responsibility for facilitating law enforcement activities and returning valid subpoenas promptly.
- Samuel Chapman
Person
I want to thank the Assembly for hearing Sami's story and for making the lives of those harmed by social media a little bit easier.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you for telling us Sammy's story. Anyone else in support of this bill? Name, organization, and position.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I know it's unorthodox, but I'm here to back Sam up, and Laura and their family carried Sammy's law. We're going to get that done in the future. But Senator Humber is making a huge stride here, so respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Marc Berkman
Person
Marc Berkman with the Organization for Social Media Safety in support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no additional support in the room, opposition. Come on up when you're ready.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Thank you, Madam Chair, committee members, Dylan Hoffman on behalf of Tech Net, we are respectfully opposed to SB 918 and fully understand and appreciate the impetus for this bill. I think it's a problem that our association, our members have been working very hard to come up with and craft solutions.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We worked on one such bill last year, AB 1027. We want to continue to. Yeah, sorry, apologies. Is that better?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yeah. Thank you.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We've worked on a number of bills before this legislature, this committee, to try to address this problem, just to restate AB 1027.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Last year, we worked very diligently with the author to preserve more information related to fentanyl related and drug related content to ensure that law enforcement was able to access that type of information so that they could have more successful prosecutions. However, we're concerned with this bill and the requirement to comply with these requests within 72 hours.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We believe that that could potentially weaken user privacy, could compromise the security of users data, but also represents a concerning weakening of due process, specifically for social media users. So first and foremost, our platforms do comply with legal process when they're served with subpoenas, with search warrants.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
But prior to complying, platforms verify that this process they've received is valid, that they have access and control of the information that is the subject of the warrant or process, and in some cases provide required notice to the user.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We believe that 72 hours timeline in this bill overemphasizes compliance rather than validating and ensuring that users and their information is protected. Due to their size.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Many platforms do receive a number of these types of requests for information across many jurisdictions in this country, and so SB 918 would create a separate due process right for our users than for users of any other online platform. Furthermore, we fully agree with the intent to create a system and an ease of use for law enforcement.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We believe of our platforms are already required to provide a contact process as required by penal code Section 1546.4. So we believe that this bill's requirements, around a telephone number in particular, are a little bit redundant. But I believe that is an issue that we can continue to resolve.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
And so under Cal ECBA, we believe our platforms already fall under that requirement. And so many platforms do have an online portal where law enforcement can reach out to our platforms directly, receive responses, serve process through that portal, and seek to, to obtain that information that way.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
So for those reasons, we are regrettably and respectfully opposed to SB 918. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
When you're ready.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
Hello, chair and members. My name is Rachel Bhagwat. I'm a legislative advocate at ACLU California Action. I want to thank the Senator for bringing thisbBill forward, and thank you for sharing your family's story. We do share concerns with this bill with tech net.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
People of all ages rely on social media platforms for everything from accessing information and connecting with others, to seeking information on sensitive topics like gender affirming care or abortion, to paying for goods using transportation, getting work done, and speaking out about issues of the day.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
The vast stores of info that social media platforms hold about people are subject to some of the strongest privacy protections under the law, and for good reason. Rules that accelerate the handing over of this private information to the government do raise concerns.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
This bill adds strict time limits for responding to government requests, but ensuring that people's rights are protected takes time. When a platform receives a search warrant, they must carefully review the warrant, perform a reasonable search for responsive material, and understand the scope of those records in order to determine whether the warrant is tailored as law requires.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
The platform should also notify the target of the search to allow the person to take action to protect their rights, the platform will need to ensure that the warrant does not cover information the legislature has said should not be shared out of state, such as info about someone seeking or providing abortion, abortions or gender affirming care.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
The platform might also communicate with law enforcement about the scope and breadth of the warrant and seek and obtain legal advice from counsel regarding the breadth of the search warrant. It might also be necessary for the platform or the target of the warrant to seek relief in court to void or modify that warrant.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
All these steps cannot be completed if the platform must respond within 72 hours, and for that reason, we are opposed to this bill. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Any other opposition to this bill.
- Austin Heyworth
Person
Chair and members Austin Heyworth with on behalf of the Internet Works Association, we're still opposed, but appreciate the amendments. It's definitely moving the right direction.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Seeing no further opposition, we'll bring it back to the dais. I just want to start by saying that I just continue hearing after hearing to be perplexed by the social media companies who put out ads saying that they want regulation, that they come in and oppose the most basic of laws that are put forward.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And as someone who used to represent corporations in criminal actions, I know that most folks don't even get 72 hours, but they show up with the warrant and they get what they want.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And so 72 hours, when you have over a million users, you have lawyers on speed dial, and you can get those answers and you can get them the information to save more lives.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I really, really urge the tech industry to step up and to actually start to be our partners in protecting our communities, because what Senator Umberg is proposing here is eminently reasonable. And if you can't support this, I just don't know what to think anymore.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Kids like Sammy are dying, and he's asking you to respond to a search warrant, which, let me be clear, requires a judge to sign on to with probable cause. So all of those concerns are addressed by the process already in existence to get the warrant in the first place.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
With that, I will turn it over to Mister Lowenthal.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
First of all, I want to thank the author for bringing forth such an important bill, such a thoughtful bill. The most important thing I can say is to you, sir, I'm so sorry for your loss.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
I know how hard it must be for your family to live through it, much less to stand in front of complete strangers and talk about your story. But suffice to say, telling this story is making an impact. It certainly gives energy to the author and all of us who know this is the right thing to do.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
So thank you for giving us that strength. And thank you to Sammy as well. I have a question for the author. Before I provide any comments. The question is the concern of the ACLU. The most salient concern that I heard was this 72 hours window.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
The response that has to take place from the 72 hours window, is that a definitive response, or can it be any response whatsoever? What does that response need to be?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
That's a great question. Typically, a response to a search warrant has to be complete. So yes, if they simply don't use what would be a good faith effort to do a search, then they would not be in compliance.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And theoretically there could be greater enforcement action but one of the things I wanted to mention is that there's this new tool called artificial intelligence, and it's something very strange to the tech industry, apparently. I'm sorry about that. What, what, what?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
When you say you need to analyze a search warrant, I mean, as the chair pointed out, you can analyze a search warrant fairly quickly and with artificial. And I'm not actually, I'm prone to sarcasm, not being sarcastic right now.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
With artificial intelligence, you can train the model, you can train the model to figure out what are the necessary requirements for a search warrant, and you can literally feed that search warrant in and see if that meets the criteria that's been trained upon.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And you can even analyze the facts to see whether the facts go with the law and get an output. Now, I don't know. I'm not sophisticated enough to know whether 72 hours is sufficient. We've been wrestling with that.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We've chosen 72 hours, frankly, because it seemed reasonable, as the chair points out, too, that businesses, when they get a search warrant, they comply immediately, because they get folks that are actually in their premises and producing things.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And a subpoena, dependent upon what kind of subpoena and what the timelines are usually can be complied with fairly easily now or quickly, especially if your business is technology. So I have confidence. I have confidence in our tech industry. I have confidence in the way we develop artificial intelligence, that we can do the job that's required.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Now, one other component of the bill is that there be a human, and I know that sounds a little 1980 ish, that you'd be an actual human. But any of us who've ever tried to call a platform can attest to the fact that it takes sometimes a lot.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We all view our job through the prism of personal experience. My wife had a problem with one of the platforms last Friday. She's still waiting for a callback. Today is Tuesday.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So that's why I included a human in this equation, so that law enforcement can actually talk to a human and ask that human to do whatever's necessary to be able to comply. So I know that's more than you'd asked for.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Assembly Member Lowenthal, I appreciate your comments concerning Mister Chapman's passion and taking that passion and turning it into positive outcome.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Yeah, I'd like to first respond to what you had to say and then make my overall comments, if that's okay. First of all, I was the President of freeconference call.com comma, 40 million monthly users.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
We had all the time, search warrants and so forth brought to our attention based on calls, a lot of issues around terrorism, a lot of issues where law enforcement needed to know precisely who was on calls, so forth.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
We had no problem turning those around in short order without artificial intelligence for an entity of that size, including call detail, records and the like. And I don't see this being problematic for the industry whatsoever. Now, I'm gonna make my comments, so actually, I take that back.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
The first thing I'm gonna do is commend Dylan and both the opposition for the very, very difficult jobs that you have in standing up for something that all of us emotionally connect with and all of us can identify with as it relates to tragedy going on in our community.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And that's why the chair is so emphatic about why it's so important for industry to stand up to this, because it affects all of us.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Now, there's a recurring theme that we hear over and over again, which is the wall that tech is putting up, whether it's law enforcement, whether it's cyberbullying, whether whatever the issue is, has to come down, period.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
I was able to say this in the Chairman's committee only an hour ago or 2 hours ago when presenting a similar topic of bill that had to do with harm caused to children and having school officials, the school psychologists, being able to escalate things as it relates to social media platforms and having a human response within a certain period of time.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
The costs are de minimis. The contact center that could be employed for this could actually be the contact center for all of these bills that we're seeing simultaneously. The amount of profit that big tech is making is unbelievable. If you will allow me for one quick moment. Meta made a profit last year.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Meta made $39 billion in profit in 2023, which is a 69% increase from the year before. Alphabet Google, which operates YouTube, which is also part of this, made $42 billion last year in profit, a 40% increase from the year before. Sorry, Dylan, don't mean to be directing this all at you.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
What I'm trying to say is this isn't going to affect shareholder value. This is going to provide an unbelievable amount of relief to communities in a great deal of pain, communities whose residents are being monetized every time they go online.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
We demand a response that's appropriate for the level of pain and difficulty that you hear from this family and any family that gets the opportunity to speak on this issue. Mister Chairman, I hope that you would consider me to be a co author on this bill. Very proud supporting committee today.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. I think Miss Dixon and then, Miss Ortega.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Thank you, chair. Thank you, Senator. Certainly. My heart goes out to you. And you're here to fight the fight in your son's name.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
We've seen too many parents here in Sacramento at various hearings and press conferences, fighting for changes in our laws to ensure that our children are safe. And I commend you for being here and advocating for your son. And, Senator, thank you. Thank you for carrying this bill and other bills related to public safety, frankly, in our community.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Did this go through public safety in the Senate?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
No.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Maybe that's good. So I commend you. We need to address these heinous factors that are affecting our children on social media and elsewhere related to fentanyl, related to drugs that are illegal, illicit, that are fed into the illicit drug market. So I commend you, Senator, for fighting this good fight.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
I do notice proudly that our Orange County Sheriff Department is behind this. I don't know if there's any law enforcement here to support. I'm sure they are supportive of just the challenges to get a search warrant.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
And just as the chair said, it has to go through a judge at any 247 to approve a search warrant. I think 72 hours is generous. It should be instantaneous when you have a grieving family, family of the victim, trying to get some answers quickly.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
But in any event, I take it from the Newport Beach police and a lot of Orange County police departments are in support. So thank you. I commend you for doing this. And of course, I will support it. I'd love to be a co author as well.
- Liz Ortega
Legislator
I also wanted to thank you and Sam and Senator for bringing this bill forward. I actually sat on the fentanyl oversight hearing committee, several of them. I actually had a bill really focused on youth and access to fentanyl and saving lives.
- Liz Ortega
Legislator
And through those hearings, there was one quote that stood out to me, and I still think about it every night, which is drug dealers of today are not those that we knew of the eighties or nineties. The drug dealers of today are on our social media platforms and they're killing our children with temporary and disappearing posts.
- Liz Ortega
Legislator
How are we supposed to find them?
- Liz Ortega
Legislator
And so I really commend you for taking this on as a way to modernize how we go after drug dealers as we try to play catch up with not just AI or social media, but even our cell phones, and knowing what we know now, which we would have done before when it comes to our children.
- Liz Ortega
Legislator
So I want to thank you. Would also love to be on and on as a co author. And thank you for being here.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you, Miss Ortega, Mister Vice Chair.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great, thank you, Senator Umberg, appreciate this legislation and also very sorry for your loss, sir. And thank you for the comments you shared with me up here. You know, I didn't know what I've said this before, but I had no idea what fentanyl was for 2019.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
When I was mayor of Rockland, one of my neighbors, Zach Didier, died from fentanyl poisoning. And unfortunately, I've met too many victims of fentanyl poisoning since that time and almost talk with one of them on a daily basis over something that we're working on. And, you know, it's not something I enjoy at all. And.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
But, you know, if I can advocate for you or any of them, you know, that's always been a top priority of mine, you know, but the pattern that we do see in my district, and I'm always careful to just say that, look, it's all the responsibility. We talked about this in this c=ommittee on other bills.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
I mean, the responsibility isn't entirely on the social media platform, but it definitely is a tool that the drug dealers are using to traffic this in the community.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
We obviously know people who are dying of drugs in the streets and things, and that's really, in those circumstances, if they're investigated at all, there's no impediment to continuing that investigation. There's people to talk to. But unfortunately, you know, they are two different dynamics.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
But I mean, the people in my community dying from fentanyl are dying from getting it, obtaining it online. I mean, that's just the reality of the situation. And I think, you know, Mike, actually, I've shared this before up here. Mister Lowenthal, if you haven't heard it, you're gonna learn something else about my family.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
My cousin passed away from fentanyl poisoning as well, young man. And so, you know, we have to. I think it's. It is kind of crazy to me to think that if there's an investigation, I think 72 hours, honestly, is pretty generous.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
I mean, if the police show up at my door with a search warrant, you know, I don't know if I'm going to be like, hey, you know, you know, give me 72 hours and I'll get back to you. Right? I mean, they're going to, they're going to come in and start investigating.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
So I think 72 hours is a pretty reasonable standard to start turning things over, you know, and I hope judges will use discretion like we ask them to do, right? Now under all search warrants, so. And as the Chairman, are you still Chairman of the Judiciary Committee? At least till the end of the week? Okay, that's good.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
I was appointed to the Assembly Judiciary Committee and I have that much more respect for you after today. So. But anyways, you know, I think the downside to what's going on right now, and I think we're seeing the frustration from our chair, is that we do have a lot of these sorts of bills coming through.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
And I think we do need, I think, a more global approach on how we're going to address and work with the stakeholders, including social media companies, on, you know, what is their responsibility. But what's my responsibility as a parent as well? Right. And, but these disappearing messages, things like that, I mean, it's, it's crazy.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
You know, there's just a lot of crazy things going on out there. So I'm happy to support the bill and you know, if the time comes to add co authors, if you'd have me, I definitely would like to be on as a co author. And I really appreciate what you're doing in this avenue as well.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
On fentanyl, just globally, on all sorts of issues. It's really 110 people are dying every week from fentanyl. Some of them from over their fentanyl users, but they deserve help and treatment as much as the people who are being poisoned from obtaining it online. But thank you and look forward to supporting it.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you Assemblymember Patterson, could I interject one of the. So if I can ask. Madam Chair, Mister Chapman has to leave for the airport, I'm informed. So if there's questions for Mister Chapman now, perhaps if we could direct those questions now so that he could depart, that would be great.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yeah, I don't know there's any more questions for Mister Chapman. I'll just reiterate what my colleague said, which is such gratitude. I'm a mother myself, as are many of the people on the dais. And the idea of losing a child is all of our worst nightmare. And you're turning that loss into saving other kids lives.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And I know Sammy would be so proud of you and so grateful, and we all are. So thank you sir, for being here. I also want to clarify one other point, which is if a search warrant is overbroad, which at times they are. I mean, the truth is, judges don't always get it right.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
That's the job of the lawyers, is to go back to the judge and argue the breadth of the search warrant to get it narrowed. The 72 hours will absolutely give these attorneys the time to do that. This is what lawyers do every day, all day. They do it well.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
The defense attorneys that represent these companies do it exceptionally well. These are high paid lawyers, generally speaking. And so I just am confident, again, having practiced in this area of law, that what is being provided here is not overburdensome, that it is absolutely within and will protect the users that the companies want to protect from overbroad warrants.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Which is something that I appreciate you guys advocating for. I think it's important, and I know the Senator agrees too. Our criminal justice system has to work, and part of that is protecting people from overbroad or unnecessary warrants. But again, there's processes to do that. They will have time to do that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Usually it is done much faster than 72 hours in my experience, and judges are on call to do this, that's what they do. So I appreciate this bill greatly, because I think, I mean, it's so simple. The bill starts with, you need a phone, you're going to answer right again.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I mean, a web portal that God knows where in the ether those requests go isn't the same as having someone that police officers can actually talk to to get answers when it is possible. Other kids could die from a batch of fentanyl that is being delivered across Santa Monica.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Like that is an urgent crisis that needs action and this enables them to do it. So I really appreciate it. And with that, would you like to close, Senator?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you, Mister Chapman. As I said at the outset, this has touched so many people's lives, and thank you for your passion and taking that passion and turning into a positive for so many people. So I appreciate that, number one.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Number two, I was a bit flippant at the beginning of this hearing, and I want to echo the comments of Assemblymember Lowenthal. It is tough, it is tough to come and impose something like this where the challenges are technical. But I do believe we can meet those technical challenges.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
In a former life, I was a federal prosecutor, actually quite familiar with search warrants and subpoenas. And indeed, if a search warrant is over broad, if you get a search warrant and you are fill in the blank platform that says please produce all messages related to drugs, that is on its face, over broad.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And there are remedies, even if you don't proactively seek a remedy, if you try to enforce a search warrant or you try to enforce a subpoena that says please produce all messages related to drugs, the court is not going to hold that platform in contempt.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And so there are various safety mechanisms that are built into our criminal justice system. To the extent that there's other issues that we can resolve, technically, I do want this to be useful. I do want this to be able to be used by the platforms as efficiently as possible. I welcome other comments.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I've heard lots of comments about requiring a human being to be available, and that that's archaic. I'm going to keep it. So with that, I urge an aye vote.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you, Senator. Do we have a motion? Motion and a second. Let's call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number six, SB 918, by Senator Umberg. The motion is do pass as amended. [Roll Call]
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Skinner, you are next on our agenda. Oh, that had seven. That is out, but we will leave it open for absent members. Thank you, Senator.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
If nothing else, the heat will make us move faster in here. Hi, Senator.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Thank you so much. Plus that I have to go back and chair my committee.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Senator Skinners, SB 976.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Great. Appreciate being able to present this bill. And I'll start with, as stated in the analysis, I'm taking authors amendments that clarify that the parents control over the child's access to the platform is limited to solely the access of the addictive feed. And I'll get into that in a minute.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
So, in other words, the parental control in this measure is only about the defaults that this measure requires. Under SB 976, parents cannot restrict, for example, a minor's access to content that they are interested in, or to direct messages, or their ability to search for specific resources, support services, you name.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
So I just want to clarify those authors amendments I'm taking, and then let me get to the heart of the bill. SB 976 responds to the concerns of parents, school administrators, county superintendents, pediatricians, even the us surgeon general, and many more to address the well documented harms that social media has on our children.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
SB 976, as I indicated, does not regulate content, but rather it is focused on the addictive features that are embedded in these platforms.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
And I will read from the LA Times editorial board's piece where they aptly stated that the algorithms are designed to feed users a steady stream of content that the user doesn't ask for, but is designed to keep the user on the app. Which is why the algorithms are called addictive.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
And as we know, children have much less impulse control. We hope that as we mature as adults, we have more. We know that some adults are also addicted to these platforms, but for children it is higher.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
So what SB 976 does is requires social media platforms to have as a default setting for all users under the age of 18, no addictive feeds.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
So in effect, it's going back to what we might call Facebook 101, where the feeds were chronological, no notifications during school hours and between the time that we would all reasonably agree that children should be asleep, which is between midnight and 06:00 a.m.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
on school days, and expands children's privacy by making a minors account private as a default setting. It is only these defaults that parents can choose to override, not any content or other activity that their child may choose to have on the social media platforms.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Social media companies have been unwilling to voluntarily change their practices, and when they won't act, it is our responsibility to act to protect our children. Now let me introduce my witnesses, Dorothy Johnson, who is from the Association of California School Administrators, and Anthony Lew, who's the deputy Attorney General from California's Department of Justice. Thank you.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Two minutes each, when you're ready.
- Dorothy Johnson
Person
Thank you, Madam Chair and members Dorothy Johnson on behalf of the Association of California School Administrators and the more than 18,000 education leaders serving California public schools and the students, and as a student first organization, we are pleased to serve as co sponsors of Senate Bill 976.
- Dorothy Johnson
Person
Our support for the measure stems from the need for a safer online environment in order to uplift students behavioral health and academic successes. It also stems from the need to ensure our educators can fulfill their responsibilities to students.
- Dorothy Johnson
Person
And unfortunately, the impact of social media, well documented, is also clearly seen daily and reported as a growing concern for our school leaders. Further, the frustration among parents who turn to schools and educators for help cannot be understated or overstated.
- Dorothy Johnson
Person
Schools are authorized under current law to regulate the use of a student's smartphone and on campus hours and during certain school sponsored events. This helps somewhat, but it really does not address this constant feed of information coming to them, often not requested.
- Dorothy Johnson
Person
The state has made real investments in children's behavior health, including school focused services like certified wellness coaches on campus, in addition to locally driven initiatives. And so while we work to treat the symptoms, we should also be looking at the cause.
- Dorothy Johnson
Person
Given all the challenges facing today's students both on and off campus, we believe tools that help enhance focus, discourage disruption and other help can be in the best interest of our young learners for immediate and long term well being.
- Dorothy Johnson
Person
And we want to really extend our appreciation to the Senator for her leadership on this and requestly ask for aye vote.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. When you're ready.
- Anthony Lew
Person
Hi. Good afternoon, chair and committee members. My name is Anthony Lew with California Attorney General Rob Bonta, who's a proud co sponsor of this bill.
- Anthony Lew
Person
This bill is a larger, it's part of a larger effort to create a safer online environment for California kids where safety and mental health protections are provided by default and to ensure that social media platforms obtain parental consent before exposing children and adolescents to addictive features.
- Anthony Lew
Person
We thank Senator Skinner for authoring and Association of California School Administrators and public health advocates for co sponsoring with us this tremendously important legislation to protect California children. So I'd like to set the record straight a little bit about what 976 does. 976 is a bill about algorithmic delivery of user created content.
- Anthony Lew
Person
Kids can still search for and follow user created content. Platforms can use algorithmic delivery of their own content or content produced in partnership with others, including content to help vulnerable communities. 976 explicitly protects, within the definition of addictive feed, a miner's ability to search for or follow whatever content or content creators they want. That's under 27,000.5. A1 and A3
- Anthony Lew
Person
It protects a miners ability to directly message and communicate directly with other users. That's under 27,000.5 A4. The bill protects a miners identity by limiting the use of any information collected for the purpose of determining a user's age and requires it to be deleted immediately after it is used. That's 27,00 1B.
- Anthony Lew
Person
The bill protects a minor's right to privacy under 27,00 3A, which says that the bill cannot require the operator of the platform to give a parent any additional or special access to or control over the data of the child. It protects public health education supporting vulnerable communities.
- Anthony Lew
Person
It protects the ability of a platform to do content moderation to combat online hate under 27 3B. So, in short, I know my time's running out here. I think this is a very much needed bill.
- Anthony Lew
Person
It protects youth against the most harmful aspects of social media, the addictive feed, the infinite, and it does nothing to limit youth access to people and community or information. So we urge your support. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Any additional support for this bill?
- Marc Berkman
Person
Marc Berkman with the Organization for Social Media Safety in support.
- Oussama Mokeddem
Person
Good afternoon Chair and members, Oussama Mokeddem on behalf of Public Health Advocates, one of the co sponsors for the bill and support. Thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
--- with Los Angeles Unified School District in support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Carly Stelzer
Person
Carly Stelzer with Common Sense Media in support. Thank you.
- Tyler Rinde
Person
Good afternoon, chair and members, Tyler Rinde with the California Psychological Association in support. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Anyone here in opposition to this bill?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Welcome back, Dylan.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Switch seats. Keep it interesting.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Maybe it'll go better in this one.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Good afternoon, Madam Chair. Just wanted to make sure I had it close enough.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Dylan Hoffman on behalf of Technet, we are respectfully opposed to SB 976 and again, very much agree with the intent around this Bill and want to note that our companies have been at the forefront of creating new features, setting new defaults, new tools to provide parents with greater control over their child's social media experience.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
And our Members already provide many of the defaults and options that this Bill contemplates. However, we do take issue with the prohibitions on using an algorithmic feed unless a user can prove they are not a minor, or if they are a minor if their parent consents first.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
The assumption that a chronological feed is inherently safe and an algorithmic feed is inherently harmful is misguided. An algorithmic feed shows users information and posts from their friends, family and their interests.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
With 95 million posts shared on Instagram every day and 500 hours of video uploaded to YouTube every minute, algorithms order and make sense of the immense volume of user generated content on the Internet. They determine how content is prioritized, recommended, and displayed to users.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
It also helps ensures ensure that users receive high quality, developmentally appropriate content by deprioritizing or removing inappropriate content. For example, some platforms use algorithms to help nudge users back towards safer content.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
If a user is clicking on and viewing content that glorifies eating disorders, for example, the algorithm will deprioritize or hide that content from their feed and instead recommend healthy eating habits or body positivity content that's not possible with a chronological feed.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Chronological feeds, on the other hand, can be gamed by bad actors or can bury relevant information in favor of accounts that post continuously. It's not clear at all that prohibiting algorithmically curated feeds for minors would meaningfully protect them. Next, our letter more fully discusses the continued issues with age verification and parental consent.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Obviously, pushing out the implementation date I think is helpful, but this Bill also directly impacts the speech rights of platforms by mandating a chronological feed by default. We've consistently made the argument in this Committee and others that platforms editorial decisions in how they moderate, display, prioritize, and recommend content is all protected.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
First Amendment expressive conduct yesterday in the net choice decision, the Supreme Court reaffirmed that social media platforms have First Amendment protected editorial discretion to curate speech on their platforms, including and particularly by using algorithms.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
While that decision is non binding, it does give a pretty clear indication of what a majority of the court think about state regulations of expressive conduct such as is being proposed in this Bill.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
And as we have from the beginning, we're more than willing to discuss policy alternatives that respect these First Amendment principles and work together to address the goals that the author has worked to achieve for several years. And for those reasons, we respectfully oppose SB 976. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Any additional opposition in the room? Name organization opposition.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Danny Kandokaiser on behalf of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, in respectful opposition. Thank you.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
Rachel Bhagwat with ACLU California Action in respectful opposition as well. I'm waiting for someone to show up and say disrespectful opposition. I am not gonna start that trip. Madam Chair and Members, Courtney Jensen, on behalf of the Civil Justice Association of, California, in opposition. Thank you.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Naomi Padrona, on behalf of the Computer and Communications Industry Association, respectfully opposed.
- Robert Singleton
Person
Robert Singleton with Chamber of Progress, also respectfully opposed.
- Laura Bennett
Person
Laura Bennett for California Chamber of Commerce in opposition.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no further opposition, we'll bring it back to the dais, Mr. Ward.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Senator, for bringing this Bill forward. As a parent, I fully appreciate what we are trying to do here. My children are not yet, but very soon are probably going to be very interested in social media access. I know it's coming.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Heading into fifth grade, we're holding out and we're doing our best to redirect. But. So I guess the first question generally is the Bill essentially is trying to be able to potentially and importantly, move minor users towards chronological, as opposed to algorithmic based feed distribution and then the allowance of notifications.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
But, you know, opposition is asserting that there's no evidence that a chronological order is no more or less addictive, which is what we're trying to get out here. And what evidence are you having that this change can be helpful from a mental health perspective?
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Well, we could consider this as that what it's doing is allowing the miner to determine their content, because the chronological feed is what they choose and who they like and who they search for, versus the algorithmic feed which, based on the algorithm, sends them what the algorithm thinks they should be interested in, or as has been well documented, will keep their eyes on the platform.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
You notice that when you sign up for any of these, you don't have to pay a fee yet. These are very big businesses. How is it that they make their money from ads? Of course. Why would an advertiser pay them the money that they make? Because eyes on the platform.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
So if you can, in effect, addict the user and cause them to have their eyes on the platform, the more eyes, the longer the, and more hours then you sell ads. Now, this does not eliminate their ability to sell ads, but it puts reasonable protections on our kids on that ability, that their inability for that impulse control.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
But it also gives them the right to search for, follow like, or find whatever content they want.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
But they're still, even in a chronological system. I remember Facebook generation one. And you can still have ads.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
You could, yes, there will still be ads. Absolutely.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Content, too. I forget if you can have a toggle or a trigger that, you know, only allows you to be able to see or that, you know, ads that I actually would prefer that, that I want to follow who I want to follow. Right. Rather than get, you know, something that was sort of like that.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
But there's still, is there a mechanism, could opposition, maybe respond from a text standpoint?
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Let me just add additionally, I mean, obviously we're trying to get at these addictive features, but we're also, the defaults limit the number of hours because the other issue is the amount of hours that our children spend.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And I've had this issue with, the.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Parent can override that limitation on hours, but it also has those defaults.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
I've had this issue with other ones, too. When we're thinking about age verification issues and how there may not be a workaround, how someone may not be able to just sign up for an account with a new gmail and be able to say that they were born in a year that makes them 18 years old.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
What is that, is that embedded in here, too?
- Nancy Skinner
Person
That there are some kind of, so there are. The Attorney General's Office would have, would. So this is one of these interesting debates. And certainly there's good evidence that our platforms know a lot about us without even our giving that directly in terms of the information, which is how they can target and how they sell the ads.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
However, since there has been raised issues about, whoa, maybe whatever, the Bill does have the ability for the AG's office to develop regulations in that regard. And I don't know if you want to speak to that or, yeah, the.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Bill, the Bill does require us to do rulemaking around age assurance. And if I understand your question, you're asking how does that technology work or.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
How, where are we trying to, you know, legislate something that, you know, there's maybe an easy workaround for a user.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Hopefully the regulations will help us there. But I.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
What you're trying to accomplish, I guess.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
I find it, I have a very large skepticism about the platform's any claim that they have the inability to have within very, very close prox, very close accuracy, what the age and profile of the user is, given that their targets and their ads are targeted on the basis of the profile of those users.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
The profile, I could just say I'm 18 years old, even though I'm 14.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
The. Well, go ahead.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I was saying. So age assurance is an area where there's been significant technological development.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Can you speak a little louder, please?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Age, go ahead. Age assurance is an area where there's been a lot of technological development over the past few years that continues to accelerate in the US and Europe and other countries. Right. This Bill anticipates and creates an opportunity for innovation.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And we expect that options for age assurance, as well as our regulations, which are in the Bill related to age assurance, are going to evolve over time and be informed by public comment and develops in technology.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So we would expect that age insurance, I can't predict exactly how it's going to turn out, but we would expect that it would include ensuring that companies that already know or have reason to believe that a user is a minor act on that information, as opposed to feigning ignorance, which is what is so often the case.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Now, is there penalty then on the company if they are not doing diligence? I guess, to look for improperly set up accounts?
- Chris Ward
Legislator
In other words, if somebody is signing up and purports to be 18 years old, we're saying that the system generally would figure out through observation that, you know, they're probably actually 14 years old, and so is there liability for them to be able to shift them over to a minor account. I just wonder how this works.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
This is not, you're asking what the Bill provides on this. Now, I don't quite understand the question.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
It's hard, and I have a second line of question here too, but it's hard for me to ensure that we are able to get to the outcome that you're wanting to have, which I agree with for generally the protections that we want to have for youth who are susceptible to the addictive nature.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
To answer the question about. So the Bill does not specify certain penalties. However, the Bill would these, the regulations that would be developed would fall under the unfair competition. Give me that club that, exactly.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
The Unfair Competition Law.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
The unfair competition law, which in itself has penalties associated. So once the AG's office develops the regulations, it potentially, if there were violations of those regulations, then it would fall under that, that law.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Okay, so let's say, jumping ahead, that we had worked out all these from an implementation standpoint, a regulatory standpoint, it better guaranteed that we were assured of the validity of who the user is and what age they are. So now we know who the miners are, and they would need parental consent.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
What happens in a mixed household where there's parents that disagree about whether or not they want to allow for an algorithmic versus a chronological. Or what happens when parents disagree?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Go ahead. Well, I would say that there's lots of laws that are already on the books that require online operators obtain verifiable parental consent when dealing with child users. So federal coppa does that right now. So this is not a new issue that's being created by this Bill to the extent that companies. So if that's existing.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
I'm just asking the question here today, what happens? Does one parent verify that they're the parent, and then the kid goes to the more favorable parent and says, you know, I want you to actually go in there and verify and override it. What happens in these scenarios?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Well, the Bill doesn't provide that. Now, I would say this, you know, parental consent is a common concept already. Right. And so we don't generally require people, parents to carry around a verification that they're a birth with a birth certificate or something for all kinds of other things that you do in life where parental consent is required.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Right. We don't do that now. So all I can say is, you know, the Bill requires rulemaking on this subject. Don't know where that's gonna shake out, but, you know, these are rare. I don't think that we are getting into engineering how to prove this. You know, which parent has the real consent issue with this Bill.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
This is an issue that will be part of the rulemaking, but it's not a new issue, is my main point. There's lots. You can raise that question right now.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Well, and I raise that question because it leads into what I know the chair is seen as an opposition point from the Trevor Project and other groups, organizations that are important to me, as they are to you as well. And I'm really trying to understand their concern.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
I know they're not here to be able to better express and answer that question, but you hear about these issues, too.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And so when you have LGBTQ youth that are trying to be able to access content, I guess, to be able to find community, to be able to find a resource, and a parent sort of might disagree, potentially an algorithmic situation could, in a positive way, help to expand, like, organizations or other resources. Right.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
That may kind of fit their experience and their interest, and parents may not disagree, may disagree on whether or not they should be able to be able to have that trigger that allows them that experience.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And so I, you know, I, again, very supportive, and I will vote to be clear on the Bill here today, but I'm trying to understand if you've appreciated what their opposition point could be and why this Bill is why they're stating it incorrectly.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Well, they're concerned, and again, I'm not them, but I can say that the concern is about content, and this Bill does not give the parents control over content. Right. It still leaves the content to the child. Now, I am sure there are people that feel that even the content should be controlled. I am not of that opinion.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
But what this does is just. And the only thing the parent can override is that default. So the parent could allow, for example, the algorithmic feeds. Right. The default under the Bill is that the minor would not receive such algorithmic feeds, the addictive feeds. But the parent could choose to allow that.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
But this child would still, or the minor would still be able to like to search, to connect with any groups content that they choose.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Thank you. And I just wanted to give the opposition any chance to respond to some of the line of questioning or points that I was raising.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And through the chair, I think the problem that we're sort of grappling with, which admittedly is not a new one, but still a very difficult one, is how do you age verify, and how do you determine who is and is not a minor on the Internet? It's a complex issue.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
It's one that our platforms are contributing to technologically to try to fix and provide some of that, that technological solution. The Senator is correct. We are able to estimate ages. It's usually a range.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
But however, it's far more accurate to be able to say, okay, this user is a 60 year old, and they're clearly not a 15 year old, versus this is a 15 or a 16 year old, or this is a 17 or an 18 year old. And then where to determine the line of, okay, well, they get a.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
A chronological feed, or they have to have this more restrictive time of day restrictions. That's where it becomes a difficulty. So combined with the penalties combined with the threat of a private right of action, our platforms are going to say, okay, we need to know.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We need to know whether that 17 year old is actually a 17 year old or whether they're an 18 year old. Because we don't want to make a mistake here. We don't want to be subject to those penalties. And so how do you do that? You collect government ID.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
That comes with its own sort of access issues as well, collection of more personal information.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
So our industry is trying to come up with some of these solutions that are more privacy protective, so that users feel comfortable when they are sharing information with us, that it stays private, that they don't feel like they have to give up a government ID just to get on social media in order to look at whatever video or cat memes or whatever else it is, communicate with their friends.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
But it continues to be an issue and there are easy workarounds and that's the difficulty of it. So, for example, Utah passed a pretty restrictive age verification law around pornographic sites.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
The amount of searches for VPN's for virtual private networks, which is a way to sort of get around that, to say, okay, I'm not in Utah anymore, I'm in. It looks like online you're in another state. Soared through the roof in the subsequent days, weeks and months afterwards. We see kids are very savvy.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
They're able to get around these things quite easily because the technology currently isn't there to do that yet. So those are some of the challenges that we're trying to grapple with.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
And so when you put penalties that the Bill through other sections of the BNP code would apply, it makes it very difficult for us to sort of say with that certainty, zero, our age range is accurate, without then collecting more information.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
That's the point that we try to make is, you know, just by the way of the practicality of this, that's how you would assure somebody that they are who they say they are. They are how old they say they are.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Okay, thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Although I'll note that the age assurance regulations that the Bill dictates, if followed by the social media company, would satisfy their obligation.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
That's why the Senator has put it in there and I think is really critical to what she's doing here because age assurance will be set out via these regulations such that it will be clear how to follow that and not need to invade the privacy in order to do that. So I think that's an important addition.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I think Mister Lowenthal was next.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Thank you, Senator, for bringing this Bill forward. I believe I'm already listed as co-author on this Bill. I want to acknowledge the efforts of the opposition and how challenging it is for you. You know, it's really tough.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Everybody, when companies management, especially those that are public companies, are under the pressure to maximize shareholder value in every quarter, to be showing better results than the quarter before.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And as the center has pointed out, the way that these companies are monetizing and increasing quarter after quarter isn't just increased growth of users, but it's maximizing the amount of time that the users are spending online and how rich the data is actually that's being sold, including that of our youth.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And so I really want to acknowledge the tough place that tech is in. And it's natural for tech to be presenting opposition on something like this. Truth be told, is I'd be supporting this Bill whether or not these algorithms were addictive or nothing.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
You see, having control over what content is presented deliberately to youth means that you're affirmatively and deliberately changing their evolution, if you think about it. Right?
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
So when brains are developing the most in our bodies, which is when we're growing up, to be presented very, very specific information that's outside of the user's choosing for the purpose of maximizing shareholder value, and not necessarily for the growth positive evolution of that individual, I believe, is leading to horrific mental health outcomes.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
The Senator didn't point any of these out, but I will, if you don't mind. We have a 62% increase in youth suicide since 2011. We have 22% of current high school students considering suicide. CDC found that nearly 30% of us teen girls seriously considered taking their own lives in the last year.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And now I will share a story from my own family. So, I have three daughters. One of them was dealing with body image issues, and that happened at school, where kids, according to the educators that I'm close with, are talking about each other's bodies now more than ever. And it wasn't the same kids bullying.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
It would be different kids talking to my daughter about her body. And there was a cumulative effect associated with that. And low and behold, we caught her throwing up in the early parts of a eating disorder. We had gone to the school and administrators to speak about this issue.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
They had no teaching moment associated with any of this. They were very interested in getting her mental health support that she needed, which I certainly appreciate, but there was no teaching moment associated with it.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And the first Bill, my first day I got sworn in, I introduced AB 10, which was having schools making sure districts have policy and curricula around body shaming. But that was actually a direct response to the algorithms.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And the reason that I know that is because immediately after this happened, the pediatricians that we spoke with said, are you looking at her phone? And are you understanding the algorithms and the content that's being presented?
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And so I did that immediately, and scrolling through image after image were about bodies, women's bodies, young women's bodies, the sexualization of the images of those bodies. For somebody who is not mature enough and developed enough to understand the difference between marketing what's perfect, what's imperfect.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And I watched before me the genesis of an eating disorder, which is also up, by the way, a similar amount since 2011.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
We should have our children evolving in ways, and we should be intentional about their evolution and be focused on their wellness in any environment that they're in, whether they're in school, whether they're in camp, whether it's the motion picture Association of America giving us guidelines on what different films are and whether they're age appropriate or not.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And the same goes online. It really, really does. We're just going to have more and more bills that keep pointing to this. You know, I'm going to be authoring them until we have an increase in mental health outcomes for our kids because we know there's a direct nexus.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
This, I'm so excited for this bill to become law and so excited to assess and understand the data associated with this. This is one of the most important pieces of legislation that we can vote on in our time here. Thank you so much for bringing this forward.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you, assemblymember Miss Dixon.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
And then we'll go to the question. Thank you, Senator Skinner. I think I'm supportive. I'm just questioning, maybe this is too simple, but just to restate what you would like to do here is that ads that pop up on an adolescent, a minor's use of the computer, this is what we're trying to control. Correct.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
What does, doesn't ad blocker do the same thing? Can't a parent simply go into their child's computer and I do ad blocker? And the data says that they've just saved me 35 million ads a year or something like that. So, I mean, there are millions and millions and millions of ads. So wouldn't an ad blocker work?
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
And that's question number one. Question number two, I don't understand the parents role here. I know the bill says it's limiting to this portion. I just want you to clarify for me, just define what the parent's role is in all this.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Certainly. So on the feeds, it's not just ads. Obviously, ads are part of the feeds, but there's other feeds. And what this bill would do as a default is you would only receive feeds you, the minor, would only receive feeds related to content that you searched or likes, that you made a.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
So it would be based on you versus on what the algorithm predetermined, then on the parental control. So the bill creates these defaults for minor users, the defaults being the non use of addictive feeds, the no notifications during school hours, the no notifications during midnight and 06:00 a.m.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
and a couple of other defaults like that, privacy settings and the parent could override those defaults. For example, if the parent wanted the, the minor to receive notifications, you know, all day, or to have the social media experience the same as the parent, they could override that. So those are the parental controls that are allowed.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
So back to the ads or the unwanted material. So will the algorithm, like, I'd like to sign up for that algorithm. I mean, then I don't get all these ads. Wouldn't we all want that? And I get it from a platform standpoint, that's their revenue base. I mean, that is, that's what they're doing.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
That's why Mister Lowenthal reported on their quarterly profits. It's coming largely from advertising. And so I'm not against advertising, but if we're trying to control the ads, aren't there, I guess the bottom line isn't there already existing technology, we don't need a law to do this.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Just encourage parents to ad block other children technology for ads, but not for the other content.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
And just, you know, I don't know how many of, many of us use social media, but I stopped using a number of platforms because for the life of me, I couldn't figure out, I'm like, what the hell is this stuff popping up? Right? No, I didn't look for this.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
I didn't ask for this group to invite me into their group or this. These are all things like what? And it was clearly the algorithms that decided that these are things that should be sent to me. But I don't get those kind of ads. I don't get those.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Well, anyway, and this is what the, the loot, the elimination of the addictive feeds, would allow only the content or likes or information that you yourself were seeking, or you, the miner, was seeking.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Okay. All right, thank you very much.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But I think if I can, just a point of clarification, I don't think it's just paid content. Correct. Right. It's all addictive content, which is not the ad blockers wouldn't get at just. Yes, for point of view. Yeah, great. Mister Vice Chair.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Thank you. And you know, I think being on this committee for a while, we, I think we've determined we're all in similar interests in trying to prevent, you know, children from being harmed online. And just a couple things I want to note.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Unlike, I understand some of the concerns, unlike maybe perhaps the Attorney General, I don't believe that my children have a right to privacy, period. So that's always been interesting. Just discussion on all sorts of policies that come through here.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
But the one thing that I do, I think having, being on social media without algorithms in which we know there's a lot of crummy content out there. I mean, you know, sometimes, sometimes it's fed to me for one reason or another.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
But, but I think the whole point is to give me also just the fact that they want to give you the stuff you want to see also, it should also mean, and I'm not saying that there's necessarily a good job doing this, but I have concerns about the feed showing people things that you should see.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
And I think this was pointed out in one of the opposition letters. But, but just I think a couple years ago or whatnot, my colleague who sits on this committee with me authored the appropriate design code, which I might point out that the social media companies oppose that.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
But I believe it's being used as a reason to oppose this measure. But it actually makes sense to me, which is I want to make sure that the stuff that my children are getting through an algorithm are actually appropriate for them to see. And I don't think that's possible without a curation of sort.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
And so that's what concerns me about this bill. I'm happy to hear a response to that, obviously. But I am concerned with exactly that. We're not allowing the algorithm to show the stuff that they should actually see. And by the way, I just want to point out one thing.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
I do think that, and I've said this up here before, I do think there could be more work done on and more responsibility on what the age of the people using social media are. And I think that's really important.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
But in terms of feeding my now 9 and 11 year old daughter, which by the, they're not on social media, by the way, and hopefully won't be for a while, but when they do make that choice, I want them to get appropriate material. And so I just wanted to see what you thought about that.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Well, and you would have the right to do so if the bill passes. And I think we've had a very robust discussion on it.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
So I don't want to repeat what's been said, but I think, you know, if that is the preference of you, you obviously, if this bill succeeds in his law, you would have the right to override and let them have the algorithms, or what is very well documented, the addictive feed algorithms.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Well, I'm not even sure how TikTok would work under this legislation. But yes, unfortunately, my daughter does watch too much YouTube, but she enjoys it. I mean, actually, she finds content that she likes and learns stuff from it, but I just think she spends too much time. And I do lock it down.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
They do have the controls for me to lock it down and all those sorts of things, but. All right, thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no additional members seeking recognition, Senator, I, too, would like to be added as a co author, if you'll have me. I think this is incredibly important work.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And I know the age appropriate design bill was mentioned, which was incredible work by Miss Wicks, which is caught up in court, because I believe the social media companies have sued and it is stalled.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So we continue to do our best to protect kids online, and they will put up a lot of barriers, but we will continue to try, because protecting our kids should be our number one priority. And as the mom of now teenagers, I know firsthand what this looks like, and it's shocking.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
You know, they're creating a product that is intended to addict our children, and it is harming them. And we're seeing that, you know, when we learned that cigarettes were addictive and harmful, we took serious action. And to be frank, I think the same is needed here.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And I think the us surgeon general made that statement about a week ago, and he couldn't be more right. So I appreciate your leadership in this space. And with that, would you like to close?
- Nancy Skinner
Person
Thank you. That is a great analogy around the tobacco companies and the appropriate response. And I also appreciate assemblymember Lowenthal's very clear citation of legitimate statistics on the increase in suicides and amongst our teens, and in eating disorders and other mental health problems.
- Nancy Skinner
Person
And I think the intent of this bill, and the intent of all of the supporters of it, and myself, and those of you, I hope, who will vote for it, and I ask for your aye vote is to protect our children.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Do we have a motion on the bill? Madam Secretary, please call the roll
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 11, SB 976, by Senator Skinner. The motion is do pass, as amended, to the Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call] That bill has six.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I mean, six. So it's out. But we'll leave the roll open for absent members. And Senator Becker has been so kind as to let Senator Stern go next. Thank you, Senator Becker. I appreciate the pacing. And I think the air may have turned on. Am I the only one who feels it? No. Okay. Cooler than the Senate.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yeah, it's good. It's getting better in here. Somebody called OSHA. Senator Stern will be presenting SB 1283 when he's ready.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair and members. SB 1283 would explicitly grant our school districts the ability to limit or restrict the use of social media on campus. You've been hearing all day about the ills. This is really about tools and making sure our districts have every clarity in law that they can move forward.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
There have been amendments that we accepted or we are accepting in this committee that we're going to be further refining with the chair's assistance that raise some issues that I think some of the opposition will note. But at bottom, it gets into circumstances when a school district were to allow social media to be used on campus.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
How do you deal with those instances when a student is publishing a fight page or a student is being bullied, how do you make sure that in pursuing that incident and trying to get to the bottom of it, that you don't inadvertently out the gender or gender identity of a student or another kind of protected class?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So I really do appreciate the work with both the committee chair and with the head of the LGBTQ caucus this morning, Assemblymember Ward, on further amending the Bill, in addition to what's specified in the committee analysis, to ensure that there is a dual notification provision when you are being notified of your rights under the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, that the student doesn't find out after the parent does, that there's an issue, and we think that that's an important clarification so that students are given equal footing in this endeavor and not sort of left in the dark while the school district communicates directly with the parents without any ability for the students have any notice of their own rights under ECPA.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Second, we're going to clarify that the disclosure and consent must be per the individual, by the individual who's been accused of the cyberbullying, harassment or suspected activity.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
In other words, that there's not going to be sort of blanket consent sought from school districts for all students privacy rights to be waived, but that if you are the one who is being accused of bullying another student, beating up another student, attacking a student, that will be sort of constraining the inquiry of that incident, and that it will be that consent, the parental consent sought, will be limited to your suspected activity.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Not everyone's. We don't want this to be a dragnet for surveillance of students in our schools. That's really not the intent. Third, we want to be clear that we're limiting that consent to just the duration of the investigation of a specific incident. So this is not blanket consent that lasts all year.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
The amend's already made clear that any consent would sort of lapse at the end of a year, so it would have to be renewed. But we've even refined that further. It's not a whole year catch all we're saying just in the scope of that incident. And so we really hope again there we can narrow the scope.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
And then lastly, we're going to be very clear about the confidentiality, that sensitive information related to gender, gender identity and the like.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
But just to circle back and before I close, hopefully none of these situations are necessary because hopefully students do not have that smartphone in their hand at school and that they are not on Snapchat at school and that we liberate teachers from having to both police their students behavior and make it much simpler to be a student on campus.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
You can just do your thing. There may be school districts that decide we want to have social media on our campus. It's important to us, and in that case, they've got to operate within these guardrails we've laid out.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
But we think the much simpler path and one we hope that leas across the state will go down are just the simple blanket restriction. But I'm happy to take questions and get into colloquy and clarification as necessary, but I'll just let my lead witnesses say a brief piece.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I know some members have to go, so I'm cognizant of time too. Thank you, Senator.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Two minutes each, when you're ready.
- Marc Berkman
Person
Okay, I'll do it. Hello, my name is Marc Berkman. I'm the CEO of the Organization for Social Media Safety, the leading conservative consumer protection organization focused exclusively on social media.
- Marc Berkman
Person
I want to thank Senator Stern for authoring SB 1283, which will ensure the physical and mental well being of California students by finally enabling school districts to limit student social media use during the school day if the district so chooses. We are proud to sponsor this bill. This legislation is incredibly timely.
- Marc Berkman
Person
As just the other week, the surgeon general called for warning labels on social media platforms advising parents that using the platforms might harm adolescents mental health.
- Marc Berkman
Person
As we've been talking about, as an organization that works with k 12 schools across the state on social media safety, we know well that student social media use during the school day is leading to significant additional time spent on social media and negatively impacting learning and campus climate.
- Marc Berkman
Person
In our own research and partnership with the UCLA School of Education, including over 14,000 teens, a staggering 53% self reported using social media for more than 5 hours daily. That is a lot of time. And in that time, our children are being harmed. A breathtaking 46% of teens self report being a victim of cyberbullying.
- Marc Berkman
Person
Cyberbullying victims are about two and a half times more likely to attempt suicide. A study conducted among 14 year olds found that increased social media use correlated with poor sleep, harassment, lower self esteem, negative body image, and higher rates of depression.
- Marc Berkman
Person
These findings, among many, many others, indicate real, ongoing harm from social media, harm that could be substantially mitigated by reducing time on social media during the school day and having our students focus on learning. We are proud California is leading the way. The organization for social media safety stands in strong support of the bill. Thank you.
- Patricia Rucker
Person
Good afternoon, committee members. My name is Patricia Rucker and I'm here representing the California Teachers Association. I'd also like to thank Senator Stern for the work being done in this bill. I'd also like to thank the committee staff for the work that they've done to develop amendments to address the issue of privacy.
- Patricia Rucker
Person
First of all, let me begin by saying, as a high school english teacher back in the 20th century, my greatest concern was to stop students who were passing handwritten notes in class that said, do you like me or can you be my friend? So today, students do have social media in school.
- Patricia Rucker
Person
They are bringing their cell phones to school, and they are using those phones to send notes. More serious and of greater concern than a handwritten note asking, do you like me and will you be my friend?
- Patricia Rucker
Person
For the teachers in all of California schools and somewhere in the State of California, all of the horror stories that you have heard concerning social media and the data represented in the statistics my colleague and friend here gave to you is definitely true.
- Patricia Rucker
Person
But more importantly for the teachers in our classroom, there is a need to balance the personal and private rights of students with the very urgent and highly prioritized needs of schools to have order to provide instruction, to make sure that instruction proceeds in an orderly way, and that when students come to school, that school can happen not only for students who have that social media in their pockets, but for students who have and are affected by it when they leave their campus.
- Patricia Rucker
Person
These amendments go in the correct direction. My committee on public, on school safety and school management studied these amendments feverishly, with great intent and with concerted interest, and we do believe that they are going in the correct direction.
- Patricia Rucker
Person
There is this needling concern about how do you balance the privacy rights of students, the public concern of parents for what is reported, and the overarching responsibility of districts to deliver instruction and training for students in a safe way. How do you balance all of those competing needs that these particular amendments are attempting to address?
- Patricia Rucker
Person
We, the California Teachers Association, urge you to continue this conversation and to let these amendments go through to support the work and the policy and the intent of this bill. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you so much. We will now move to additional support for this measure.
- Laura Bennett
Person
Laura Bennett with California Chamber of Commerce in support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Look at you, shocking me.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Dylan Hoffman on behalf of TechNet and support. Thanks.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Doesn't that feel good?
- Pamela Gibbs
Person
Yes, it feels good to support the bill. Pamela Gibbs representing the Los Angeles County Office of Education and would like to thank the author. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
It's been a long week, y'all. I'll try to behave. Great. Anyone here? Oh, wait, please.
- Mitch Steiger
Person
Mitch Steiger with CFT, a union of educators and classified professionals. Also in support.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Okay. Yes, we have opposition. Come on up.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
Hello, chair and members. My name is Rachel Bhagwat. I'm a legislative advocate at ACLU California Action. I want to start by appreciating Senator Stern for his intentions on this bill and how collaborative his office has been on this throughout session. However, we are deeply troubled by the amendments in the privacy committee analysis.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
We have not seen any further amendments or language that seems to have been discussed today, so I have to react to what we've seen in print in the analysis. This bill's intention is simple, but we feel it's devolving into a messy tangle of surveillance.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
The Senate amendments that we collaborated on with the Senator's office meant to ensure that students knew their rights to refuse a device, search and consult a parent or attorney.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
Emphasizing students right of refusal was critical to avoid potential Cal ECPA violations and protect against putting students at risk if their personal info was obtained without their consent, like, for example, school knowing if they were accessing LGBTQ resources or reproductive services.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
Assembly, education and privacy committees raised concerns that some students could be coerced or retaliated against for refusing. Those are valid concerns, but the new amendments approach, or the committee analysis amendments approach to resolve this is alarming.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
If this committee passes the bill as amended in the analysis, we will have removed students entirely from conversations around their own information and privacy. Notification is not enough. We need consent from students.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
The new language would require parents and guardians to consent or refuse for their child's device to be searched, including through consent language that could be buried in a stack of school forms and, you know, could, well, I think, no longer last up to one school year.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
Minors would not have a right to refuse a search of their own device for their own reasons, they'd be simply be informed if their parents sign away their right to privacy. Removing minor consent is an unnecessary change.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
If parent consent is important to protect young children, then the right solution is dual consent, which would block a search if either a parent or a student refuses or both. Look, school rifling through a student's phone without their consent is dangerous.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
We appreciate the attempts to put guardrails around forced outing and confidentiality, but those things don't fix the problem if we deny students the right to protect their own private information.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
If an educator looks through Suzy's phone and learns that she's gay or had an abortion or got diagnosed with bipolar disorder, they can't unknow that no matter if the law says they can't do anything with it, and some will find a way to do something with it.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
At this point, with these amendments, we respectfully urge the Senator and this committee to vote no on this bill and allow the smartphone regulation, language and current statute to achieve the purpose Senator Stern seeks. Thank you. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Any additional opposition to the bill, please come forward.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Yes. Hello. Danny Kando-Kaiser with the Electronic Frontier Foundation would align our position with the ACLU. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. I thought there was a second, but apparently there's not. So seeing no additional folks in the room, we'll bring it back to the dais, Mister Ward.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Thank you, Madam Chair. And I wanted to start by thanking, certainly the author, your staff, committee staff, and the Chairwoman for diving deep into figuring out how this might play out in reality. The simple solution would be to just more broadly, you know, work on smartphone policies.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
I know another bill is doing that, and I believe local school districts want to be able to do that as well, so that this isn't an issue in an educational environment, but where there is your bill or any local allowances to be able to regulate, I guess, social media access and content, you know, raises some of the concerns that we've talked about in as a legislature just recently as well, and what a very wide ranging outcomes could be through some of those local policies is what your bill is trying to be able to rein in, right.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
What they do or what they can't do, under what circumstances they would be able to look at information.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Because I do believe, and I share a lot of the very, very fundamental concerns as well, that opposition is raising here today and trying to make sure that there aren't the eventual outcomes for vulnerable students that need a sense of privacy rationally. I guess to be able to support them is something that's important to me.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And so as we're sort of threading all this here, too, it's, you know, I tried to maybe get away from language and status and sort of really try to paint this in a real world scenario. Right. What happens if you have an individual, and I know that you're trying, again, tie this towards, you know, an incident. Right.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Where a school needs to find out more information that is tied to bullying, cyber cyberbullying, or harassment or an altercation. Right. And some of that information can be found through conversations embedded in a smartphone or on social media.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And, you know, I was also trying to think about this, you know, before we had smartphones and social media and incidences like a backpack. Right. You know, what if there was a note that somebody had passed? And what is the student's right to privacy if that note is embedded within their backpack?
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And would they be able to subject to a search and really just trying to be consistent, I guess, with laws that we have adopted over the years and now applying that here toward this as well, not easy to do, given some of the nuance of social media. But I think we're getting there.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And so, you know, again, tying everything back to, I think it's a subdivision b, but, you know, in some of the amendments that are there that, you know, we really want to make sure that where there is an incident that is really the trigger and sort of the centering issue for which a searching for information is really trying to find more information to figure out, you know, who are responsible parties, where there is evidence that needs to be considered on which an action would be based and the discovery of that information and who gets to know that also engenders a whole lot of other very difficult conversations.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
I do believe, as the committee staff has worked really hard to ensure that that is relegated specifically towards school officials and not shared with others is important protection that is in there unless required to do so by state and federal law.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Some of the same allowances that we've given when we talked about my bill last week that, you know, for some reason, an issue that a mandated reporter was subject to is a part of this conversation here. Then, of course, that needs to be shared with a broader range of appropriate individuals and potentially including those parents.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
Now, where parental consent is required or is an option, I guess, in tandem with a potential dual consent option, I think is an important conversation to tease out. So I'm really thankful for the critical work that the author has been thinking about to try to make this right, because what we.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
As I was thinking about scenarios that today's language could possibly allow, you know, as it is right now with the committee amendments and absent any future amendments, an individual that, you know, was wrestling with whether or not they were gay or maybe had visited, like, the Trevor project's website or local LGBT resource center or something right on their smartphone and then was involved with an incident of bullying.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
So trigger is there. There's access because a parent or somebody had actually consent or had pre authorized that, you know, their social media could be discoverable. So now we're going in there and we're looking through that feed, and they discover this information. It may or may not be relevant to that incident. Bullying. Right.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
But now, to your point, they know about that. So is that something that needs to be shared? I would argue not by default. That presents a very risky and a very dangerous situation, and it is separate from the entire. The origin incident. Right. That, you know, is the necessity of this policy that you're trying to work on.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
So I guess to colleagues, I've, you know, been through this bill multiple times and really tried to run these scenarios about, you know, whether or not a unintended consequence could happen that would infringe upon or offend or risk somebody who might be subject to this.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And I think that we're getting there because I believe the author also had. I almost saw a light bulb go off that you don't want that either. Right. And so we worked really closely on maybe some. Some draft amendments, too, that are going to be able to get at a few things.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
One, refining some of the language about sensitive information discovered related to the incident, but it's relevant to LGBTQ identity within subdivision f, language about sensitive language discovered not related to the incident within proposed subdivision e, students that are being able to consent, if they are the victim or the bystander, proposes subdivision b two and language clarifying the disclosure and consent provided must be, per the individual case of cyberbullying, as I stated earlier.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
And so we're going to work, I think, on refining some of that language.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
I think we agree in concept of where we want to be able to go, although we want to work with the chair as well, to make sure that nothing is outside of, I think, her points of view as well about what is the right outcome here in some of this language.
- Chris Ward
Legislator
I'm completely happy to move and support the work that's been done here today, and with your agreement as well, we'll continue to work on these and together for potential floor amendments. You have my agreement. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. And I want to thank Mister Ward for his partnership on this. I think, you know, the issue was raised with us last week of the concerns of the caucus, which I think was really critically important for us to understand. And your partnership has been really important in helping us address that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So I appreciate it, because I know you, as a parent, like me, don't want our kids on social media at school. And so how do we achieve that goal and also protect the LGBTQ youth, which I know is a shared vision with the author. Yeah, Mister Bryan.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
No, I mean one of the more thoughtful authors in the other house. So confident and hopeful that conversations will continue. I also want to clear. I think they should continue. I think this is a very. I hate the term slippery slope. I hate the term poison pill.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
I'm done with these things that we often say, but I can't think of something better in this moment than a slippery slope. I can see instances where children who have their phones searched on school grounds now might feel stigmatized in going to school again and having their privacy invaded in such a way.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
I think it's complicated, but I understand the root of what you're getting at. I also do think that there's just. I don't know. I could see many ways that this could be difficult, especially when you don't share with third parties unless you have to. So what if, like a parent gives consent?
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
But then I'm looking through the phone, I see the parents said, you better be home by a certain time. I'm going to beat you. And now I got to report it to child welfare because I'm a mandated reporter. And I've now seen that this parent. You know what I mean?
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
There's a lot to unpack here that I just want to make sure you continue to do. But I also have full confidence that you will continue to do so. You have my vote today. And thank you for always taking on the important things.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Too much confidence in me. I'm gonna try. I'll try to make your. Yeah, your vote count here. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Mister Bryan. Seeing no other comments or questions, would you like to close, Mister Stern?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Yeah. We know there are not just one slippery slopes. Maybe like a slippery mountain here. How about that? Of just. Oh, this thing is a Pandora's box and it's poisoning our kids. And I appreciate the tech industry from recognizing that it does not belong in the hands of kids when they're at school.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Finally getting the yes on one piece of this. We're not gonna turn this schools into surveillance state. We're not interested in outing students. We don't want this to be a sort of accusatory and doubting, you know, a sort of a suspicion environment of suspicion.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I do think getting a smartphone, maybe adding dumb phones to schools, and maybe just not having smartphones at all in there could make a lot of sense. But I'll tell you, I just appreciate the. The trust of the committee, and we hope to bring you some work product here should this thing hit the floor.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
And ideally, by the time it hits the appropriations chairs desk, that is worthy of all your support, and that we address some of these central concerns of the opposition as well. So with that, you have my commitment, respectfully. As for your aye vote.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you, Senator. We have a motion and a second. We'll call the rolls.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item 17 SB 1283 by Senator Stern. The motion is do pass as amended. [Roll Call]
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
That Bill has seven. And is that. We are going to. Mister Min. Come up or we're just going to open the roll on two bills before you go. So we're going to open the roll for absent Members on SB 893. Padilla. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And then we'll open the roll and ask the. What is the ... That is 10-0. That Bill is out. And we will leave the roll open for absent Members. We will open the roll on SB 918. Umberg.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Great. Thank you for your indulgence. We had to get her votes on the record, and now we will take up SB 1394. Mr. Min.
- Dave Min
Person
Thank you, Madam Chair and Committee Members, I would like to start by just noting that we will be accepting the proposed Committee amendments and want to thank the chair and her staff for collaborating with us on this bill. SB 1394 enhances protection for abuse survivors by regulating the use of connected vehicle services.
- Dave Min
Person
Currently, when abuse survivors receive court orders of possession or ownership of a vehicle, vehicle manufacturers state that they are unwilling or unable to disable drivers abusers access to the survivor's vehicle.
- Dave Min
Person
This measure would require that vehicle manufacturers disable an abusers access to such technology within one business day of a survivor's request with supporting documentation such as proof of legal possession of a vehicle or domestic violence restraining order that awards vehicular possession after negotiating with the chair and her staff.
- Dave Min
Person
Recognizing the need for some survivors to immediately flee, this bill also puts in place a process, if technologically feasible, for a driver to disconnect the connected vehicle service from inside the car, balancing the protection of survivors while also recognizing the potential for this to be weaponized.
- Dave Min
Person
The connected vehicle service would remain disabled for 48 hours, during which time a survivor would have the opportunity to submit documentation for the service to remain disabled. Obviously, as vehicles become increasingly app connected, abusive partners can use this technology to track, surveil, stalk, harass and intimidate survivors.
- Dave Min
Person
Such remote access often occurs without the survivor's knowledge, making it imperative to counter the misuse of these technologies. SB 1394 sets forth a clear process for a survivor to request termination of connected vehicle service and safeguards survivors from technological abuse consistent with California's domestic violence protections.
- Dave Min
Person
I understand that there are a number of other bills on this same issue, and we're committed to continuing discussions on this issue during the summer recess. With me today to testify in support of this measure is my better half, Professor Jane Stover, Director of the Domestic Violence Clinic at UC Irvine School of Law.
- Jane Stoever
Person
Good afternoon, Members. My name is Jane Stoever, and I'm honored to testify in support of SB 1394 on behalf of UCI Law, Domestic Violence Clinic's clients as a bill co-sponsor with EndTAB, which stands for End Technology Enabled Abuse.
- Jane Stoever
Person
Over the last year, sponsors of SB 1394 worked with the New York Times to report alarming ways in which vehicle apps are being weaponized by abusive partners to surveil, stalk and intimidate survivors by starting and stopping engines, summoning a car to them, recording audio and video, and even turning off electric charging case.
- Jane Stoever
Person
Examples from bill co-sponsors include a woman in the Bay Area whose husband used the Tesla app to monitor his wife's location, unlock her car doors while in public parking spaces, and place a weapon in the vehicle.
- Jane Stoever
Person
Despite having a restraining order that granted her sole possession of the vehicle, Tesla refused to disable the husband's access to the vehicle app features due to his co ownership. For a Southern California woman recently, her restrained, abusive partner shut off her ability to charge her electric car except while at her own home address.
- Jane Stoever
Person
Finally, another client described visitation exchanges at which she would bring the couple's child and her ex would lock her out of the car she'd just driven there, leaving her stranded. We've carefully designed SB 1394 to one, protect survivor safety. By legally requiring manufacturers to rapidly terminate an abuser's remote app connected access to a vehicle.
- Jane Stoever
Person
Two, account for property rights. For my clinic's clients, their greatest asset is usually their car, and it's their lifeline to safety. So as a law Professor, myself, and you as lawmakers, we're concerned about all of the property rights involved here. And then three, safeguard against an abusive partner making false claims or wrongfully disconnecting a survivor's vehicle access.
- Jane Stoever
Person
Hence, there's a timeline and requisite proof, uniquely, in SB 1394.
- Jane Stoever
Person
1st, with the automatic disconnect that this Committee sought, the initial proof of abuse filed within 48 hours, and vehicle manufacturers required to sever that access within one day if the automatic disconnect is not technologically feasible, followed by proof of legal possession or exclusive use within 30 days for that longer term, disconnect.
- Jane Stoever
Person
In conclusion, SB 1394 has the support of a strong statewide coalition of domestic violence, privacy, tech and legal agencies. And SB 1394 isn't just about emerging technology. It's about safety, privacy, and the right to live and drive free from fear. Respectfully urge your aye vote. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Thank you very much. Are there any other witnesses in support? Name and affiliation, please.
- Yadi Younse
Person
Yadi with Oakland Privacy in support.
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
Dan Felizatto, on behalf of the California Victims Alliance in support.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Good afternoon. Danny Kando-Kaiser, on behalf of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, we are a support, if amended, position. We have concerns about the immediacy language that was put in as Committee amendments, but we very much look forward to continuing the conversation.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Thank you. Any primary witnesses in opposition?
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
All right, thank you. 30 seconds. I'm just joking.
- John Moffatt
Person
Whoa. It's not that late, Mister chair, Members of the Committee, John Moffat, on behalf of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation. You know, I just want to start by saying it's, we've had a lot of conversations with the Senator's office and the sponsors of the Bill over the last couple of weeks. Very good, very rewarding conversations.
- John Moffatt
Person
I can't think of anything that was said that we don't agree with. From our perspective. We think it's very important that recognizing there are three bills out there that used to all approach this in very different ways, now they are all starting to approach it in the same way.
- John Moffatt
Person
And then now that we can get to the point where we can have a conversation over the summer recess about how do we take these three bills, get to one thing that works, where the documentation is there, that the bills accurately reflect the technology that is available and what isn't.
- John Moffatt
Person
And also, and then lastly, from our perspective, we recognize the role that we have in this space. Space and, you know, if it is the desire of the Legislature and these laws to want us to air on the side of protecting survivors, we're more than happy to do that.
- John Moffatt
Person
But we want to make sure there's no wayward abuser or someone else who wants to come sue us after we, you know, after we, we take those actions.
- John Moffatt
Person
And so I think all things that, that we've discussed over the last several weeks with both the Committee as well as the author and the sponsors, and we look forward to continuing that conversation over the summer recess and getting down to one concept that can work for everybody and that we can implement and be a part of the solution on this.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you. Any other witnesses in opposition?
- John Moffatt
Person
Thank you.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Mister Vice Chair Robert Harrell with the Consumer Federation of California. We have no position on this Bill. Would just like to note, having worked with the author on a wide range of issues the past few years, Consumer Federation of California is the sponsor of the Weber Bill, which was one of the other bills in this area.
- Robert Herrell
Person
We're committed to working this out between this Bill, Senator Minn's Bill, and there's also Senator Ashby's Bill, SB 1000, which I think this Committee heard two weeks ago from my memory serves for me correctly. It feels like the Committee's approach has modified, evolved.
- Robert Herrell
Person
I don't know what the right word is a little bit on this, but we're committed to working this out with all the other authors and on the bills.
- Robert Herrell
Person
And so I just thought it was important for the Committee to hear that, because sometimes there's bills heading towards a car crash, and behind the scenes, everybody's rooting for or against the car crash.
- Robert Herrell
Person
So that's not going to happen here, pun intended, since we're dealing with vehicle privacy, that we're committed to working with this with the other authors and organizations. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you. Any others? All right. I'll turn it back up here to my colleagues. Any questions? Miss Dixon?
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Senator Min, you have excellent witnesses.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you.
- Dave Min
Person
Appreciate it.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Much better than I am. And this, I know that this is your area of emphasis. Could you give me a little history on what? I couldn't really hear if there was data that really supports this, but give me a little background and context for why you're helping on this Bill.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. So I've been teaching domestic violence law clinics for 20 years now. You have now focused on research. You're an expert.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
I know that.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
oh, no, thank you. And have advised the Biden Administration on technology enabled abuse issues as well. Our co-sponsor, Endtab has. And so over the years, we've seen how abuse has evolved in terms of all the things that make our lives easier, also things that can be weaponized.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And so throughout my practice then, I'm increasingly seeing the use of technology. Several of the examples that I gave. So we have these different documented examples as reported now in the New York Times and Reuters. It's hard to come up with specifics, and sometimes individuals don't even know that they're being tracked. Right.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
As we think about all of the different technology, but we know this is a pervasive issue and want to really then think about any of the developments that we're creating, how they could be weaponized.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And so that's also my concern in terms of trying to get exactly the right fit here, in terms of requisite proof, not wanting for my clients to have their access to a car terminated for a week at a time just based on attestation, for example.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And so figuring out what is that requisite proof to be able to offer. So you see the list of organizations in support, including California partnership to end domestic violence, some different technology agencies, different legal, et cetera, that are coming together in support of this approach.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Do we have data that shows how many victims are from if it was prolonged or the car dealers didn't disconnect the GPA without automatic technology?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We have hundreds of examples, and so we do have hundreds of different cases. But in terms of saying how many people they're having to approach this right now, survivor by survivor, approaching a vehicle manufacturer. And even with court orders currently who are then saying no, that person still is on joint title, for example.
- Dave Min
Person
And if I might just interject. Is it correct? I'm going to defer to my witness, but I just want to reframe this. I don't believe, and I could be wrong, that right now there's, like, a standard way to track this type of data, because there's not a standard report for when this happens. So it's necessarily anecdotal.
- Dave Min
Person
Is that correct?
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Okay. All right, got you.
- Dave Min
Person
We know it happens, we just don't know how often it happens because it's something that we see about anecdotally.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Okay, well, thank you very much for pursuing this. Good. Nice to see you. Bye bye. Good to see you, too. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Thank you. Any other questions or comments? All right, well, thank you very much. Would you like to close? Respectfully ask for your. I vote perfect. You've convinced me with that. So we have a motion? Second.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
We have a motion in a second. So would you please take the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 21, SB 1394, by Senator Min. The motion is do pass as amended today. Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call]
- Dave Min
Person
Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
It's 50. We'll leave the roll open.
- Dave Min
Person
Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
All right. Senator Becker, I feel like I've seen you a lot today. Are you doing SB 1223? Yes, I am. Perfect. All right, well, whenever you're ready, we're ready for you.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
Can you tell what I'm thinking right now? Confused. Thank you. That was a joke.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Oh, sorry.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
Neurorights joke.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
It's a good one.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
Yeah, that's right. Thank you, Members. I know it's been a long day and a lot to go through. This Bill is one that, if we really did it justice, you would sort of feel that kind of hair standing up in your neck, and you're thinking, wow, is this really happening? Is this science fiction?
- Josh Becker
Legislator
But I'm here to tell you that it's not, and that this is necessary. This Bill, the California Neurorights Act, amends the California Consumer Privacy Act to enhance protections for California's neuro data. You may have heard of Neuralink. That was the Elon Musk company.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
Implants a chip in someone's brain that sends a signal and transmits them to computer, enabling control of the computer through user's thoughts. Actually, devices like that are covered by the California Privacy Act. They're considered medical devices. However, there's a class of devices now that are not covered, that are non-invasive. I just have a video.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
I sent it to a couple of you on YouTube of a company in Australia demonstrating thought to text. Thought to text. And it's not fully accurate today. It's about 40% to 60% accurate today, this company's technology. But you can imagine what's coming in a couple of years.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
And as we'll hear from our experts, they can already, with companies that have databases of lots and lots of scans, with technology available today, can tell if someone has most psychiatric conditions. Even indications, they can tell if someone has Alzheimer's. And right now, again, there's just no privacy with this data.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
Some of these companies have lots and lots and lots of scans of people's brains. There's about 30 products on the market today, again, that are non invasive neurotechnology and are not regulated. And again, left unchecked, these companies can have compiled massive databases of these kinds of brain images. And I have two great witnesses today.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
When I had in the Senate judiciary, is one of the leading neuroscientist in the world, Rafa. And he said he had his Oppenheimer moment was when he realized he was not only reading the thoughts of mice, but actually could implant thoughts into mice. Again, this is not science fiction.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
You talk to a leader neuroscientist, and you talk to our witnesses. This is something that's available in the labs, happening in the labs today. And this is a chance for California to get out in front by defining neural data, classifying neural data sensitive personal information under the California Consumer Privacy act.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
So with me today, I have Sean Pauzauskie, who's a board certified neurologist and Medical Director of The Neurorights Foundation, and Jared Genser, who is an international human rights attorney and co-founder of The Neurorights Foundation. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Thank you very much for bringing this interesting Bill. We have two minutes each. Thank you.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
Yeah. Well, thank you, Senator. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Committee Chairs and Committee Members. My name is Sean Pauzauskie, and I'm a clinical neurologist, Medical Director of The Neurorights Foundation. I'm here to testify in support of Senate Bill 1223. I learned about this issue.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
I was approached by somebody in our research office about a project using one of these consumer devices to do medical grade research. And that kind of struck me as somewhat odd that, you know, you would have devices on the consumer market that would be available to anyone that I could then, in turn, do medical grade research with.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
And so that was kind of my entry point. And so what are we talking about with these consumer devices?
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
Well, most of them are wearable headbands with EEG sensors with the same capability to collect the same brain waves that I might, in a research study, some even allow you to control your computer with your mind with a brain computer interface. This is very early stages.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
And so we're kind of talking about, analogously to kind of like the early stages of the Internet, like the dial up phase of the Internet. Where anyone can sort of have these devices, but just becoming more and more sophisticated over time.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
Most of these devices are marketed for things like wellness and mood to improve your sleep and for these types of indications. But if you can see where things are headed, as the Senator mentioned, 40% accuracy thought to text with the same kind of medical grade EEG data with these devices, in a couple years, we're probably talking 80% to 90%.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
And so while I see the promise of these devices and how they're going to revolutionize healthcare and change society and just fundamentally alter what it means to have a brain, I'm also here as a patient advocate. And nearly half of these companies within this consumer market are located in California.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
There are 7 million Californians with anxiety, 3 million with depression, half a million with OCD, 175,000 with schizophrenia. You get the picture. These are all people at risk if they were to purchase one of these devices.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
And I take care of patients all the time who have these kind of conditions, and they need to be able to come to me and know what they're getting into when they're giving away some of this most sensitive data that you could possibly give away to anyone.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
And so, while we neurologists tend to be a little cerebral, you know, not to make a pun or anything, but I want to speak to you from the heart today to support Senate Bill 1223, because it provides a common sense solution to this category of data that's falling outside of current protections.
- Sean Pauzauskie
Person
And thank you for the opportunity to testify.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you very much.
- Jared Genser
Person
Thanks so much, Assemblymen and Members of the Committee. My name is Jared Genser. I'm an international human rights lawyer. Though I'm best known for my work freeing political prisoners around the world, I've been spending the last four years working intensely to try to address emerging technology law and human rights.
- Jared Genser
Person
To understand the risks associated with consumer neurotechnologies, it's important to understand the regulatory landscape within which these devices operate. As noted, you have, you know, you have brain computer interfaces that are implantable in the human brain, that are already regulated as medical devices and covered under HIPAA and California State privacy laws.
- Jared Genser
Person
But what we're talking about here are 30 consumer neurotech products that are available today that are all downloading medical grade neural data from gigabytes to terabytes of that data. One of the companies, one of the largest companies, for example, says it has 100 million hours of a person's brain scan.
- Jared Genser
Person
And the problem with that is that our, our organization, The Neurorights Foundation, published a study in April, which I think has been circulated and we could see as well, where we looked at the user agreements across those 30 companies.
- Jared Genser
Person
And what we found was benchmarking them against global standards, including the CCPA, was that there was a dramatic gap between the privacy rights given to users of these devices and what might be required by law.
- Jared Genser
Person
And this is obviously incredibly worrying, because 29 out of these 30 companies are basically harvesting massive quantities of neural data that can be used right now for a wide array of purposes.
- Jared Genser
Person
Simply, the EEG scanners that are medical grade that you use in these devices can be used, as the Senator said and as Doctor Pauzauskie said, to identify lots of different brain diseases. And, you know, this is obviously incredibly sensitive information.
- Jared Genser
Person
And, you know, what we're talking about is enormous implications for California consumers and companies that want to sell their products into the California market. And what we're really talking about is bringing that data within the framework of the CCPA.
- Jared Genser
Person
Just lastly, I'll conclude by saying that the reason why it is not covered today is because neural data is electrical in orientation, not biological, not biometric, and not genetic. And the CCPA covers, of course, biometric information as well as genetic information.
- Jared Genser
Person
But it actually unintentionally has this major loophole, like all other state privacy laws, that does not cover this kind of medical grade neural data being gathered by consumer devices. Colorado is the first state to pass an amendment to their privacy law that was signed only a few months back.
- Jared Genser
Person
And obviously, California is the most important state in the country when it comes to proactively addressing these issues, given how rapidly the technology is advancing. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you very much. Are there any other witnesses? Me too's?
- George Soares
Person
George Soares with the California Medical Association, in support. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Thanks.
- Yadi Younse
Person
Yadi with Oakland Privacy, in support.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Are there any primary witnesses in opposition?
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Thank you, Mister chair. Members of the Committee, Dylan Hoffman, on behalf of Technet, and we are respectfully opposed unless amended to SB 1223. 1st just want to state clearly our Member companies place a high priority on consumer privacy. We're fully committed to securing privacy and security for our consumers.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We comply fully with the CCPA, many of the other states that have passed comprehensive data privacy laws, GDPR many privacy standards throughout the world. Our companies engage in wide practices to provide consumers with notice as well as choices and control over their data.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We also fully believe that these laws need to adapt with changing technologies and have no issue with the intent to provide greater protections for devices that have direct connections or measure brainwaves to decode thoughts we do have a concern about the breadth of technologies that could be included under the definitions of neural data.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We've suggested amendments to tailor them to technologies that directly measure brain activity. We are currently reviewing the amendments, evaluating them to determine whether or not they adequately address our concerns and hope to be able to provide that feedback directly to the author and to this Committee as well.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
But as we're looking at the Bill as currently in print, we want to just more fully explain our amendments. We want to maintain the focus of this Bill to the riskiest kinds of information, information about the brain itself. I think that's something that we all agree on and we don't.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
But what we don't want to do is unintentionally stifle other kinds of Low risk, beneficial technologies.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We think that being over inclusive in this way is also unlikely to benefit consumers, as it will likely result in more information being classified as neural data that isn't truly neural data, causing consumers who receive a notice of the collection believe much more sensitive information is being gathered than actually is.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
So imagine, for example, if you're buying a fitness wearable or headphones that have spatial audio, and the company has to disclose that it's collecting neural data. I don't think you would buy that product if it's not actually collecting that information. And so that's where our amendments and our interests lie.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
And as I mentioned, we're continuing to review the amendments, and we'll evaluate them in due course. So for those reasons, we're respectfully opposed unless amended to SB 1223. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you very much. Any other witnesses in opposition?
- Naomi Padron
Person
Good afternoon. Naomi Padron with the Computer and Communications Industry Association. We have an Opposed unless amended position also, and would echo the comments of Technet. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you. All right. Seeing no others, I'll bring it back up here. Comments or questions from my colleagues. Miss Irwin?
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Yeah. I got the video that you sent, and it's actually like science fiction. The technology is moving so incredibly fast, and I think as Americans, well as the rest of the world, we're really far behind in protecting that sensitive information.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
So I do really appreciate you moving ahead and making sure to classify this neural data appropriately for once in time, because I don't think it's widespread yet that you can think and actually have all your thoughts translated. But I do appreciate what the opposition is saying.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Make sure to narrow the Bill to not include kind of these other potential future innovations. So appreciate all your work on this issue.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you. Any others? All right, seeing none. Is there a motion? Motion and a second. Great. Would you like to do a closing statement?
- Josh Becker
Legislator
Yeah, I'd just say, first of all, I just want to thank the Committee for its Analysis, for this very in depth, thorough, and also humorous analysis leading off with the Pink Floyd, the trial quote there. So anyway, it's just a great. As a chance to thoroughly read through it with all the bills going on.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
It's a great analysis. Appreciate. Witnesses have traveled from near and far to be here because we think it's very important. And to your point, actually, the country of Chile is looking at putting this into their constitution, actually neuro rights into their constitution. So do commit to continuing to work with, and I do appreciate Technet and the opposition.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
We have been working with them. Look forward to continuing to do that. And with that, it's a long night. Respectfully asked for your aye vote.
- Josh Becker
Legislator
Perfect. Thank you very much. We have a motion and a second. If you wouldn't mind taking roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item Number 13, SB 1223 by Senator Becker. The motion is do pass to Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call]
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
That's 5-0 needs some more, but we'll leave it. We'll leave it open. Thank you very much.
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
Yes.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
All right, perfect. Well, we're ready whenever you are ready.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
All right, Senator Wahab, are you doing SB 981?
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
Thank you, colleagues and Members of the public. I accept the Committee amendments and thank Committee staff for working with me.
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
We are seeing literally hundreds of thousands of victims in a recent criminal investigation from two years ago, that one investigation uncovered over 100,000 victims. Deepfake technology to do these types of dirty tricks.
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
Social media platforms: we need to respond to reports of digital identity theft, provide timely updates to reporters and determine if the reported content constitutes digital identity theft as defined by this Bill.
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
SB 981 requires social media platforms to provide Californians with a reporting mechanism for digital identity theft, which is defined by this Bill as digitized sexually explicit images or videos that are posted without the consent on social media platforms.
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
SB 981 ensures that reported content is temporarily blocked until a determination has been made by the platform, and if it is found to be a form of digital identity theft, the content will be immediately removed from the platform, preventing further harm and exploitation.
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
This Bill is especially significant for young women who are disproportionately targeted by unauthorized, digitized, sexually explicit images. SB 981 is a first step in defining and reforming digital identity theft, and I look forward to returning to this Committee in the next legislative cycle and working with your Committee staff with robust legislation building upon this Bill.
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
I do want to introduce two of my witnesses. Daniel. I'm gonna mess it up. I do it every time, right? Felizzatto, with the LA District Attorney's Office and Dylan Hoffman with Technet.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Perfect. Thank you. You each have two minutes.Thanks
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
Mister chair & Members. As the senator indicated, this is a growing problem as both the quality and the availability of this computer technology to make these deep fake identity theft images become more and more available.
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
There's been a lot of talk about the political dangers that this pose, but the research has shown overwhelmingly that the vast majority of this technology is used to target women. Research has consistently found that about 90% to 95% of the deep fake images online are of non consensual pornography, and that about 90% of that is of women.
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
The harm caused by this type of activity is well known. The victims are at risk for both negative, short and long term consequences due to the trauma, fear, instability, interrupted relationship attachments that have caused this causes grief and fear of subsequent victimization.
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
This results in victims suffering from PTSD, chronic health problems, mental illness, substance abuse, and some of the victims have difficulties maintaining their academic and employment status. And in the worst cases, unfortunately, Los Angeles County, we've seen several victims who have ultimately committed suicide because of the mental health trauma that this has caused.
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
As the Senator indicated, this Bill will just require the social media platforms to temporarily block access to these images. It'll let the victims not have that fear that these images are just going to get duplicated and reproduced on site after site.
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
Right now, the legal system doesn't provide much in way of remedies for the vast majority of these cases in the civil law and unfortunately, in the criminal case, you know, these cases, depending on the extent of the case can take months, if not years to adjudicate, so the victims are left without remedies in a timely fashion.
- Daniel Felizzatto
Person
That's the reason we are proud to support this Bill.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Thank you, Mister chair. Members of the Committee, Dylan Hoffman in proud support of SB 981. Our companies are strongly supportive of the author's efforts to eradicate online sex trafficking, the distribution of child sexual abuse material, and non consensual intimate imagery.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We also want to commend her on her efforts on SB 933, SB 926, both of which are on consent today. We also proudly support both of those bills as well.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Our platforms have been at the forefront of developing new technologies to help aid in the detection and removal of pornographic deepfake content, often before it has even been viewed by a user. They also have strong policies against the posting and distribution of this terrible type of content, which have significant online and offline harms.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
As was mentioned, many platforms utilize automated systems to help in this detection and removal. However, it is also industry satter to provide a mechanism to allow users to report content that violates platform terms of service or community guidelines, including digital identity theft, non consensual intimate imagery, as has been described today.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
So we believe SB 981 sets a reasonable standard for that reporting mechanism which will help users have a greater certainty that their report has been received and is being addressed. And for those reasons, we are proud to support SB 981. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Great. Thank you so much. Are there any other witnesses in support? Moved by Mister Lowenthal.
- Ryan Sherman
Person
Good afternoon, Mister chair Members Ryan Sherman with Riverside Sheriff's Association, California Narcotic Officers Association, California Reserve peace officers, Deputy Sheriffs of Placer and Monterey County, and the Peace Officer Associations of cities of Arcadia, Burbank, Claremont, Corona, Culver City, Fullerton, Murray at Newport Beach, Nevada, Palos Verdes, Pomona, Riverside, Santa Ana and Upland, the LA School Police Association, the LA School Police Management Association, California Coalition of school safety professionals, all in support.
- Ryan Sherman
Person
Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you very much. Any other. Can you repeat that? I'm just joking. Okay. Any other witnesses and support? All right. Any witnesses in opposition? Maybe went home or no opposition, of course. Bring it back up here. Any comments or questions? All right, oh, sure. Yes.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Isn't there another build identical to this? Or have you combine forces, wasn't there one Assembly Bill?
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
We are working with our colleagues. I believe we are joint authors or co authors of each other's efforts. It's in two different houses. They are complimentary, and I will say that our entire digital package has been endorsed by the LADA as well. And of course, the cops support a lot of my work. Right.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
Okay.
- Diane Dixon
Legislator
All right, thanks. Thank you.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
You're just. Okay, great. Is there a second? All right, great. We have a motion in a second. Would you like to make the closing statement?
- Aisha Wahab
Legislator
I appreciate it. I do plan on expanding in this area as a Bay Area representative, and more specifically, a representative of the Silicon Valley. We do need to actually enforce a lot of laws in the digital space, so thank you. And I respectfully ask an aye vote perfect.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Thank you. Would you mind taking the role, please?
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number nine, SB 981, by Senator Wahab. The motion is do pass as amended. [Roll Call]
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
That Bill has six votes. It is out, but we'll leave the roll open. So thank you very much. Thank you. All right. Do you want to actually run through the other bills real quick to get some out, or should we? Well, Senator Limone's here. We'll do that.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
We haven't really hit six votes on any bills yet, so I was going to open them up for the others, but since you're here, we'll go ahead and you got SB 1220, is that correct?
- Monique Limón
Legislator
That is correct.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
Perfect. Well, whenever you're ready.
- Monique Limón
Legislator
Thank you. I heard a motion and a second, but I don't know if. Yeah, so if we do have a motion and a second, I'm going to go straight to witnesses. So real. Because folks gotta go.
- Monique Limón
Legislator
So, today, in support of SB 1220, we have Ivan Fernandez with the Labor Federation and Scarlett Gurula, an eligibility worker from San Diego, county, to speak in support of SB 1220.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
I give you a lot of kudos for just moving the witnesses, but do you accept the Committee amendments?
- Monique Limón
Legislator
Yes. Sorry. Yes. Perfect. Thank you very much.
- Joe Patterson
Legislator
All right. And you'll have two minutes each. Thank you.
- Ivan Fernandez
Person
Perfect. Thank you. Mister chair and Members of the Committee, Ivan Fernandez with the California Labor Federation, proud co sponsor of SB 1220, a Bill that will protect call center workers and the public by putting guardrails on the use of artificial intelligence at public benefit call centers.
- Ivan Fernandez
Person
The exponential growth of artificial intelligence will impact every industry and worker across California. As a tool, AI can support workers. However, without the proper guardrails, AI can be used to exploit deskill and replace them, harming not only the workers, but in the case of SB 1220, the state and the residents.
- Ivan Fernandez
Person
Overall, SB 1220 does not ban the use of AI, but rather ensures that the impact on workers be considered before these technologies are used in the workplace. SB 1220 has two main provisions.
- Ivan Fernandez
Person
First, SB 1220 prohibits the state and local governments from using AI to automate or eliminate the essential core job functions of public benefits call center workers. Under the Bill, public benefit programs include those such as CalWORKS, Edd, Calfresh, and Medi Cal, essentially programs that serve our most vulnerable Californians.
- Ivan Fernandez
Person
The second provision of SB 1220 requires an agency to provide notice to workers and the public if the call center utilizes an AI system that impacts the core job functions of these workers.
- Ivan Fernandez
Person
SB 1220 creates guardrails for workers and ensures AI is used as a tool for call center workers to increase efficiency, productivity, and effectiveness when responding to callers in need of support. And for these reasons, we respectfully urge your aye vote at the appropriate time. Thank you so much.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
Hi. Good evening, Mister Chair and Committee. My name is Scarlett Gurola, and I am a supervising human services specialist in San Diego County and a proud Member of SEIU Local 221. My team, the team that I supervise is. The team that I supervise is the ones that determine eligibility for CalWORKS, Calfresh, Medi Cal, and General Relief.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
We make every effort to try and serve the community. This impact of the call center, well, this impact to the call center is going to create a lot of job loss. Our community really needs our human hand to be placed into these systems.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
Right now, we have a partial integrated AI system, and we just went live a year ago, July 1. It's partial, and I say it's partial because in the conversion process, all thousands and thousands of cases were supposed to convert, and they were supposed to have minimal impact on it.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
Right now, as we speak, my team and all of us there in San Diego County are having to troubleshoot lengthy amount of times to make sure that the results in the system are correct. This is something that an AI can't capture, and that's what it's doing right now.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
The AI is basically going in, looking at the data, and it only captures what the formula says. But anything beyond the formula, anything that is a little strayed, that is something that only the human eye can catch. And we do this on a daily basis. We ensure that Californians have the benefits.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
This is a vulnerable population, and we take every pride in ensuring I that our community receives all of the benefits that they're entitled to receive. I do understand that AI is a new technology, but it's not a. How do I call it? It's not a magic pill. It's not going to solve all the issues.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
It might be a temporary bandage, and it might help in some ways, but it will not do what the human hand, the human eye, the human brain can do. And that says a lot. That says a lot to our community when I have.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
When I have customers coming in because the system didn't do something that it was supposed to do. And they're coming to me crying. They're coming to me because they're. They lost benefits. They're hungry. They don't have medical, you know, benefits. We are there to act immediately. We can go ahead and take the information in the systems.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
We can go ahead and make that initial transaction to have it done. Now, that's something AI cannot do, will never be able to do. So the empathy, a computer does not have sympathy or empathy for the people that are coming to us and they are in need.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
I'm just going to have to ask you to wrap it up, please.
- Scarlett Gurrola
Person
So on behalf of SEIU 221 and the entire SEIU State Council, I urge you to support SB 1220. And let's think smart. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
You made your point very well. We appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Do we have somebody else? Those are the two witnesses in support. All right, do we have any other witnesses in support?
- Ignacio Hernandez
Person
Ignacio Hernandez. On behalf of the communication workers of America, district nine, in support.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. Do we have any opposition? All right, questions, comments from the. oh, yeah.
- Greg Hurner
Person
Thank you. Greg Hurner. On behalf of 211 San Diego, we are stated in opposition, but we want to say that with the amendments, we're going to be moving to a support. A lot of the statements here that were made, we're very supportive of.
- Greg Hurner
Person
We think AI has its uses, but they are limited in certain areas, and you do need that person to person interaction. So we really appreciate the author and SEIUS working with us, and we're very pleased to be, as soon as we see it in print, moving to support on this Bill.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. Can we do a roll call, please?
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Got lots of support there. Anybody else? All right, thank you. We have a motion by Assembly Member Bryan. A second by Assembly Member Lowenthal. Do you have a comment? All right, Senator, would you like to close?
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 16, SB 1220 by Senator Limon. The motion is do pass, as amended, to the Appropriations Committee.[Roll Call]
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
That Bill has four votes, and we will leave the roll open. Great. Thank you. Can we move through and do ads, please, for Assembly Member Wilson and Bryan? Maybe I missed a few.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
That Bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Do you want me to keep going?
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right. I will be joining you in a moment, but yes. Okay. Assembly Member, I mean, Senator Allen.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Happy to be a part of both bodies. Good afternoon, my fellow Members. Actually, good evening. I suppose at this point, most of you know, the picturesque, iconic.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Let me pause for a minute, just for the record, if you can read the Bill or somebody.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
SB 1297.
- Committee Secretary
Person
oh, yeah, SB 1297, by Senator Allen.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
So, the wide open Pacific Coast highway is one of the most famous and picturesque roadways in the world. It draws millions of visitors to the small beach City of Malibu every year.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
But every couple of months, the community is devastated by another fatal traffic accident, with multiple serious crashes occurring in between near misses over and over and over again.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Young women at the. At the ahead of their lives who never made it out of. Out of University because of this tragic, tragic example of overspeeding. Since 2010, 60 people have been killed in vehicle accidents along the same beautiful but exceedingly dangerous stretch of highway. Crash data from the La County Sheriff reports 127 property collisions, 93 injury collisions.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
And, you know, recently, though certainly not most recently, on the evening of October 17, 2023 a young man speeding at 104 miles an hour on the PCH in Malibu lost control of his vehicle, killed four Pepperdine University students standing on the side of the road.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Seven deaths in 2023 alone. And, you know, a primary factor in all of these incidents was high vehicle speed. The city has just over 10,000 people, but it's in the top 25 small cities with the worst crash fatality rates in the country.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
And we know that one proven way to slow drivers down is to automated speed camera enforcement. The NTSB, the. The centers for Disease Control, federal highway Administration have all recommended using speed cameras to enforce speed limits, speed cameras, or even an authorized expenditure under the federal Infrastructure Investment and Jobs act.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
So this Bill seeks to create a speed camera pilot program for one little stretch of highway in this one particular city that's nearly identical to Assemblymember Friedman's legislation, AB 645.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
The Bill has all sorts of equity and privacy and reporting requirements that are modeled off of basically identical to last year's legislation, including enhanced signage with flashing beacons to warn drivers of automated speed enforcement, lowered fines and diversion programs for Low income drivers, warning tickets for a first violation of 11 to 15 mph over the speed limit, restricting photographs to only the rear license plate of a vehicle, prohibiting facial recognition technology, establishing record retention and destruction requirements, limiting the use of photographic evidence and prohibiting the sharing of information to any other entity.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
There are actually some additional strengthening protections in this Bill, but this is ultimately about trying to save some more lives. I mean, it's unbelievable. I mean, even since we introduced this Bill, there have been several deaths on this stretch of highway. So we have to keep updating our materials and talking points.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
We're asking you to help us in, in preventing more unnecessary deaths in this special part of the world that attracts so many people, not only from around the world, but especially from over the Southland.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
So many families from diverse backgrounds who want to spend a nice day at the beach that are darting across the road, trying to make it safely to wherever they're going. And this is an exceedingly dangerous part of road.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
There's a lot of work to be done on rethinking, reimagining the road, but in the meantime, this is an important step in making it a little safer. And with that, I have your colleague, our colleague here, who represents the roadway as well, and also Alexis Brown, who's deputy city manager for the City of Malibu.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
I'll certainly appreciate the opportunity to present alongside Senator Allen on SB 1297. I'm proud to be a principal co author on this Bill. As Senator Allen mentioned, the Pacific Coast highway in our district is an iconic corridor offering incredible views of our gorgeous coast.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
But the consistent traffic accidents that occur along this highway often have fatal consequences, ultimately culminating with the deaths of four Pepperdine University students who are standing on the side of the road. The rates at which innocent people die along this stretch of highway demand that we, as legislators take more action.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
The speed camera pilot program SB 1297 would create offers a proven way to reduce driver speed and save lives from traffic accidents.
- Alexis Brown
Person
Thank you. And thank you, Senator Allen and Assemblymember Irwin, for your leadership in introducing this legislation. Good afternoon. Evening. Rather, Members of the Committee, my name is Alexis Brown and I'm here on behalf of the City of Malibu to express our strong support for this critical piece of legislation to enhance public safety on Pacific Coast highway.
- Alexis Brown
Person
Over the past decade, PCH has been marred by 3345 traffic collisions, with speed identified as the primary factor. Tragically, these incidents have resulted in 60 fatalities, including the devastating loss of four pepperdine students on October 17 last year struck by a driver going over 100 miles an hour.
- Alexis Brown
Person
This year to date, we have seen 98 vehicle collisions, leaving 52 people injured and one dead. And law enforcement has issued nearly 2500 speeding tickets, with vehicle traffic reaching 40,000 on normal days and 60,000 during peak summer months. It is evident that urgent measures are needed to address the speeding on the state highway.
- Alexis Brown
Person
The speed camera program is a vital component to the city's all of the above strategy that includes infrastructure improvements, increased law enforcement and public education campaigns aimed at changing driver behavior. The proposed installation of speed cameras at critical points along PCH will be conducted with transparency and accountability.
- Alexis Brown
Person
The pilot will include speed feedback signs and signage indicating the presence of cameras alerting drivers before entering the speed camera zone. The purpose of this program is to deter reckless driving and racing along what has been labeled blood alley,the 21 mile stretch of PCH in Malibu.
- Alexis Brown
Person
SB 1297, includes the same privacy protections and oversight mechanisms that were included in AB 645, which passed this Committee last year. Data collected will remain confidential and only accessed for the purpose of traffic enforcement.
- Alexis Brown
Person
These cameras are designed specifically to capture the rear license plates of speeding vehicles, not the drivers or passengers, and the Bill prohibits the use of facial recognition software. For tens of thousands that drive PCH daily. This Bill could mean fewer injuries and save lives.
- Alexis Brown
Person
I thank the Committee Members for hearing this today, and I urge you to vote in favor of this Bill.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Moving on to Members, moving on to Members of the public who would like to offer me too comments and support. Name, organization and position.
- Doug Stewart
Person
Yes, chair and Members, I'm Doug Stewart, Mayor Pro Tem, City of Malibu, and we want to express our full support for this Bill.
- Dylan Elliott
Person
Thank you, Dylan Elliott, on behalf of the City of West Hollywood and support.
- Kurt Augustine
Person
Kurt Augustine with the alliance for Automotive. Innovation in strong support. Thank you.
- Brandon Epp
Person
Brandon Epp, representing Sheriff Robert Luna, in support. Thank you.
- Shamus Scaredy
Person
Shamus Scaredy Lighthouse public affairs on behalf of streets for all and blue line solutions and strong support.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no further, no more. Moving on to Members of the public who are in opposition. I don't think we have any on file, but just in case, are there any Members of the public who are testifying in opposition? Okay, seeing none. Moving on to our quick opposition. Me toos name, organization and position.
- Rachel Bhagwat
Person
Rachel Bhagwat with ACLU California action in opposition. Thank you. Moving back, moving to Committee to see if there's any comments, questions or concerns. Bryan?
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
Yeah, Senator, I have had kind of deep concerns with this policy framework more broadly. I think in Miss Friedman's Bill, I was against it and then supported it in different versions as she took amendments. And also I understand the complexity of the situation.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
I don't represent Pacific Coast highway, but I do represent La Brea and Slauson, which is a terrifying intersection on a deep hill that's resulted in car crashes and deaths of significant folks for the speeding in the way we have designed that intersection.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
And so I'm going to give you a vote today, but want to continue to process what this kind of a policy framework means and what it builds out and leads to. I think part of my initial concern is always the over surveillance and then the, you know, additional forms of policing.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
I appreciate the modeling the fee structure off of, you know, reduced fines for low income drivers. I think it's also interesting that we're building off of last year's legislation already a year later. And like, I think that's how we often do things in this building.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
And so I want to cautiously continue to develop my own personal feelings around this space. But today I support you and also for, you know, the families that have lost loved ones on Pacific Coast Highway. I hope they see the work that their legislative leaders are putting in to try to address this issue.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
I would just like to mention that our Members of the Transportation Committee expressed some of the same concerns, that there were areas where they had very dangerous roadways also.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
I will.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
And the chair of the Transportation Committee talked about the more holistic approach that she wants to take in the fall. So I would hope she has some comments.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you. Looking to see if there's any other comments. Thank you. There's a motion. Is there a second? 2nd there's a motion made by Lowenthal, second by Ortega. My comments will just be similar to Senator Allen is not unfamiliar with what they will be.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
As noted as chair of transportation seeing this through, my Committee wanting this Bill to be a part or this conversation to be a part of the greater conversation, having a, we're having around speed cameras on highways. I think the privacy issues still remain. And this is privacy.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And so it's something that should be discussed holistically, where there's not one person getting ahead of another, especially as it relates to highways, which is very different than our neighborhood streets. Despite this fact of going through a neighborhood as I have the same thing in my Committee and many others.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
With that, there is a motion and a second, as noted, I wouldn't, keeping with what I did in transportation, will not be supporting the Bill today. For that reason, staying faithful to the other group that I promised to have these conversations with in the fall. With.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And so giving you an opportunity to close prior to Madam Secretary calling the role.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Yeah, no. Appreciate it very much, Madam Chair. And just, you know. You know, this, obviously, but for the benefit of everyone else who wasn't there in transportation, we're certainly very committed to. We're very committed to supporting this broader effort that we hope comes together. And we.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
I know I've expressed to you several times, and I've expressed it again, we certainly want to make sure this folds in nicely into the broader effort. Of course, we don't know what the timeframe is and whether it all comes together. Hopefully it does. So we're committed to. But we certainly. We want to see this move forward.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
It's literally people dying every couple months, and that doesn't even include some of the horrific injuries. So we really do want to get this. Get the solution there right now. But I do reiterate my commitment to you, Madam Chair, that we will work in good faith to make sure that this dovetails nicely with.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
With the broader efforts that you have underway with regards to that other negotiation and with that. But in the spirit of saving lives right now on this incredibly dangerous type of highway, I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Madam Secretary.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 18, SB 1297 by Senator Allen. The motion is do pass to the Appropriations Committee.[Roll Call]
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Thank you very much, Members. Thank you.
- Committee Secretary
Person
It was six. 6-1.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
All right, we are waiting for one more Member, and. And that is Senator Ashby. She's next. zero, okay. All right. Okay. So can we continue with. We'll continue with the roll call. The add ons, please.
- Committee Secretary
Person
On the consent calendar. [Roll Call] Item number one, SB 532, the vote is 9-0. [Roll Call] That's 10-0. SB 785 by SBDH. Senator Caballero, the vote is 6-0. [Roll Call] Okay, 7-0.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number three, SB 892, the vote is 4-0. [Roll Call]
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
What? I'm sorry.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is SB 892. By Senator Padilla.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Oh. Yes, aye.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call] 7-0.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Okay, that Bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number four, SB 893 by Senator Padilla. Vote is 10-0. [Roll Call] That one is 11-0. SB or item number six, SB 918 by Senator Umberg. The vote is 10 to zero. [Roll Call] 11-0. Item number nine, SB 981 by Senator Wahab. The vote is 6-0. [Roll Call] 9-0.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That Bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 10, SB 961 by Senator Wiener. The vote is five to two. [Roll Call] 6-2.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That Bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 11, SB 976 by Senator Skinner. The vote is 6-0. Chair, [Roll Call] 7-0.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That Bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 13, SB 1223 by Senator Becker. The vote is 5-0. [Roll Call] I'm sorry, that was 9-0.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That Bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 16, SB 1220 by Senator Limone. The vote is 4-1. [Roll Call] 6-1. I'm sorry. 6-2.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That Bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 17, SB 1283 by Senator Stern. The vote is 7-0. [Roll Call] 7-0. Item number 18, SB 1297 by Senator Allen. The vote is 6-1. [Roll Call] Item number 19, SB 13. Oh, sorry, I forgot.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 21, SB 1394 by Senator Minh. The vote is 5-0. [Roll Call] This is 9-0. Item number 22.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
All right, that. That Bill is out. Yes, we're done. And do you want to just do the last one before we.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Okay. Item number 22, SB 1446 by Senator Smallwood-Cuevas. The vote is 4-2, with the Vice Chair voting no. [Roll Call]
- Committee Secretary
Person
Okay. That is 6-3.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
That bill is out. Senator Ashby, we are ready for you with SB 1313. Our last bill done. Almost.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
Thanks, colleagues. I appreciate the long day that you have put in on many committees running back and forth. I am here to present SB 1313. It is a safe roads act. I want to thank the Chair and Committee staff, who she's sitting in the Judiciary Committee that I am supposed to be in right now.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
So we're, you know, ships passing in the night, I suppose. I am accepting a set of proposed amendments, the ones that came from the Committee Chairwoman, SB 13. But I want to just say I really appreciate your staff. There are three bills moving through the Legislature that are trying to be morphed together.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
So great job to your staff, and thank you for your help. SB 1313 addresses the misuse of safety technology in vehicles, particularly with driving assistance and monitoring systems. This bill prohibits individuals from using, purchasing, possessing, manufacturing, selling, or distributing devices designed to interfere with a vehicle's safety monitoring system.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
Violations would constitute infractions under the vehicle code, with penalties escalating for repeat offenders. The advanced assistance and driving assistance systems require the full attention of an engaged driver. They're not ready for being circumvented.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
Unfortunately, drivers are circumventing these safety systems through the use of aftermarket devices, many of which are homemade techniques, everything from hair clips to bean bags. Entire online markets are dedicated to selling what they call nag reduction devices. They're designed to simulate drivers' hands on a wheel, thereby circumventing the important safety systems in your vehicle.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
SB 1313 addresses this issue, updates California traffic laws to keep pace with technological advances. And so I will respectfully ask for your aye vote. I do have a witness with me, Curt Augustine, who's the Senior Director of State Affairs for the Alliance for Automotive Innovation.
- Curt Augustine
Person
Madam Chair, Kurt Augustine, the Alliance for Automotive Innovation. The Senator couldn't have said it better, and I'll be brief on that. I said, we are proud to be the sponsor of this bill. Vehicles are designed with all these safety features.
- Curt Augustine
Person
And it was actually quite shocking to us when we learned earlier this year that there was no way for law enforcement to prevent anyone from overriding these safety devices. So we think it's an important issue.
- Curt Augustine
Person
You've heard a lot of safety issues about vehicles in this Committee hearing today, and we believe this is one way to help ensure that our roads continue to be more safe. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Right. Any other. Finally, the room is empty. Any other witnesses in support?
- Lizzie Kutzona
Person
Lizzie Kutzona here on behalf of Tesla in support. Thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Any witnesses in opposition?
- Yadi Younse
Person
Hi. Yadi Younse Oakland Privacy. Respectfully unopposed. Unless amended position. We just want to thank the author for their work on amending the bill and see if there's a possibility to still consider the amendments that we brought up about the driver monitoring device. So, thank you.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right, any questions or comments from the Committee? I know everybody really wants to get out of here, but when I drive my husband's car, it is really amazing how much these features help you become a safer driver from, you know, staying in the lane, controlling your speed.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
But the thing that I found, well, it's almost a little spooky, is the camera that watches your eyeballs and that if you are looking too long at the radio or over at your phone, that the car beats it.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
I think with Tesla, if you do it three times, you're punished and then you don't have a auto driver until you stop. So I think this is a great bill. It is. It's really unfortunate that people are trying to override these nag devices, as you call them. And so with that, do we have a motion?
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
All right, we have a motion by Assemblymember Hoover, second by Assemblymember Ward. Would you like to close?
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
Respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you. Madam Secretary, can you please call the roll?
- Committee Secretary
Person
Item number 19, SB 1313 by Senator Ashby. The motion is do pass as amended, to the Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call] 9-0.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thank you, colleagues. If you're bored, you can come over to Judish with us.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Okay, going over the votes, item number two, SB 785 by Senator Caballero. Vote. 70. I, Wilson. Wilson, aye. Okay, 80. SB. Item number three, SB 892 by Senator Padilla. The vote is 70. Chair, voting aye. Wilson, aye. Wilson, aye. 80. Item number 10, SB 961 by Senator Wiener. The vote is 62. Vice Chair. Voting no. Wilson. Item number 10961. 961, yes. Okay, that one is seven. Two. Item number 11, SB 976 by Senator Skinner. The vote is 70. Chair, voting aye. Wilson, not voting. Wilson, not voting 70. Still item number 30. Okay, we have. All. Right. Every Bill has passed, correct? Okay. All right. And I assume I need to stay here? zero, yeah. I think it. Are you okay? Zero, Patterson is gone. Those are three that you missed. zero, no. I mean, I'm good. 1 Member stays. Okay. Yeah.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And open the roll for the absent Member. Chair. Okay. Mic on. We are back here. Thank you, Assembly Member Irwin, for your partnership. And we will open the roll for the absent Member.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
No Bills Identified
Speakers
Legislator