Senate Standing Committee on Judiciary
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Senate Committee on judiciary will come to order. Good morning. We're holding this Committee hearing in room 112 of the state capitol. I ask that all Members of the Committee be present in room 112 so we can establish a quorum and begin our hearing. The Vice Chair is here. Thank you very much, Mister Vice Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Before we begin presentation of today's bills, I'm going to. Well, we're not going to do a quorum quite yet. What we are going to do is we're going to announce that we only have 68 bills on our agenda today. I'm sorry, I'm correct. It's 60. They're dropping fast. 65 bills on our agenda today.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We'll be in state capital, room 112, all day today. It was previously announced that we would be in room 113. We're nothing. We're in 112 and we'll be here all day. We'll not be breaking for lunch or moving rooms. So once again, we'll be here in room 112.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I want to thank the Judiciary Committee staff for the work that they've been doing. Yes. You may note they've been going on very little sleep over the last probably month. They've been working nonstop these past five weeks analyzing over 200 Assembly bills, which is about 50 more Assembly bills than normally are referred to this Committee.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We're proud to be so popular. And a special thank you to our assistants, Margaret Buxton and Erica Porter, for all the work they've done over the course of the last year, but in particular last month in council, Ian Doherty, Allison Meredith, Amanda Matson and our deputy chief counsel, Christianity Karpiewski and of course, Margie Estrada, chief counsel.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I'm lucky and grateful to have them on our staff. In fact, the State of California is lucky and grateful to have them. Employees of the State of California and the State Senate. Let me go through some housekeeping measures. File itemnumber seven, AB 1333, by Assemblymember Ward, has been pulled.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
File item, number eight, AB 491, by Assemblymember Wallace, has been pulled. File I'm number nine, AB 1780, by Assembly Member Ting, has been pulled. File number 32. Excuse me. File item number 32, AB 2584 by Assemblymember Lee, has been pulled. File number 48, AB 2862 by Assembly Member Gipson, has been pulled.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We're now going to turn to the bills that are on today's consent calendar. We have 12 and they are as follows. [Consent Calendar] All right, so we're going to first proceed as a Subcommitee. Here are the rules for today.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
They're the same as every other Committee hearing that the support side may have two witnesses, each with two minutes each. So for a total of four minutes for primary witnesses in support, followed by witnesses who may approach the microphone and provide us their name, their affiliation and their position on the Bill. Then we'll turn to the opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
The same will go for the opposition. Each side, each primary witness in opposition will have two minutes for a total of four minutes in opposition. And then we'll turn to opposition. Me too. Witnesses who will provide their name, their affiliation and their position on the Bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Now today, as you've heard quite a number of times, we're going in reverse order, meaning that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. So let us start with Mister Zbur. Assembly Member Zbur, welcome. The floor is yours. Is this the right table? Go ahead. Yes. Right. Thank you.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Chair, Members. I want to thank you for the order of the agenda today. And I'm here to present AB 2889, a measure that makes resolving labor disputes more efficient, effective and fair within the Los Angeles County and the City of Los Angeles.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
The bill is sponsored by the Union of American Physicians in Dentists, SEIU California and AFSCME California. The Public Employee Relations Board, or PERB, currently has oversight jurisdiction over disputes between almost all public agency employers and employees. However, current law provides the City and County of Los Angeles with a local alternative to PERB oversight.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
The Los Angeles local alternative has the power to investigate unfair practice charges, determine whether those charges are justified, and if so, prescribe appropriate remedies. The standard that applies to the City and County of Los Angeles gives employers an unfair leverage that is not present in other parts of the state.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
This means that unions that bargain with the City and County of Los Angeles are the only public employee unions in the State of California that are not afforded the same extent of protections that other public employee unions obtain from PERB. A bit of history in 2011, the Legislature enacted protections to prohibit union busting within the jurisdiction of PERB.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
That year, SB 857 prohibited PERB from awarding striped preparation expenses as damages from an unlawful strike. Due to a drafting error, the employee relations entities in the City and County of Los Angeles were expressly identified in the law, which means these protections were not expressly identified in the law, which means that these protections may not apply to unions under their jurisdiction.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
Many of the activities workers routinely engage in during a contract campaign, such as membership rallies, wearing union buttons, or participating in a strike authorization vote, could be used to justify these damages. However, I think we can all agree the right to collectively bargain is not meaningful if workers cannot engage in concerted activities.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
This bill not only is about aligning labor practices across the state, it's about fairness for all public sector employees in California. So AB 2889 provides PERB with exclusive initial jurisdiction over requests for injunctive relief by both the City and County of Los Angeles, just as it already has for other public agencies.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
It also clarifies that local employee relations entities in the City and County of Los Angeles do not have the authority to award damages resulting from a strike because, of course, this has been transferred to PERB.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
This ensures that local public sector unions in the City and County of Los Angeles have the same, the very same protection from union busting tactics that all other unions under PERB jurisdiction have enjoyed for over a decade. This bill has no registered opposition. I ask for your aye vote at the appropriate time.
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
And with me today are Sandra Borrero representing-- Actually it's Janice O'Malley, representing AFSCME California, and George Osborn, representing UAPD.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Let's start with Ms. O'Malley.
- Janice O'Malley
Person
Thank you, sir. Good morning. Janice O'Malley, legislative advocate with AFSCME California. We're also incredibly grateful, as the co-sponsors, that you have gone in reverse order.
- Janice O'Malley
Person
AFSCME was the original sponsor of SB 857 13 years ago when it was authored by then Senator, now Congressman Ted Lieu, to protect every public employee in California from attacks on the right to strike and saving workers millions of dollars in false and frivolous claims.
- Janice O'Malley
Person
The law was created to protect all unions from union busting tactics, as a right to collectively bargain is impaired when workers are dissuaded under threat of exorbitant damages from engaging in concerted activities such as wearing buttons or attending a rally.
- Janice O'Malley
Person
The premise that an employer is entitled to strike preparation damages, including where no strike even occurred, directly, interferes with the ability of workers to exercise their rights under the law.
- Janice O'Malley
Person
When AFSCME sponsored SB 857 in 2011, the assumption was that it would cover all public employees and those under the Meyers-Milias Brown Act, the act that establishes bargaining for California's municipal, county, and local special district employees.
- Janice O'Malley
Person
But this bill was passed in 2011 before a court of appeal decision established PERB in the MMBA but failed to expressly identify LA Herb and La ERCOM, and therefore it is legally left unclear whether both these entities, employees in the City and County of LA, have the same rights as their union siblings in other MMBA jurisdictions.
- Janice O'Malley
Person
Therefore, we ask for your support for AB 2889 to afford the same strike protection rights to LA City and LA County employees as all other public sector employees currently enjoy. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Go ahead, sir.
- George Osborn
Person
Good morning, Mister Chair. George Osborn for the Union of American Physicians and Dentists. I just wanted to reiterate that this is a cleanup bill again for SB 857 by then Senator Liu. LA City, LA County are the only two jurisdictions that were left out in the state and respectfully ask for your support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, others who wish to testify in support, please approach the microphone.
- Sandra Barreiro
Person
Good morning, Mister Chair. Sandra Barrera, on behalf of SEIU California, proud co-sponsors in support. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much.
- Sara Flocks
Person
Mister Chair, Members. Sarah Flocks, California Labor Federation, in support. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, others in support? Seeing no one else approach the microphone, let's turn the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2889 please come forward. Seeing no one coming forward, let's bring it back to Committee. Committee Members, questions, comments? Seeing none. All right, would you like to close, Assemblymember Zbur?
- Rick Chavez Zbur
Legislator
I respectfully ask for your aye vote. Thank you very much.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right. At such time, I expect there'll be a motion and we'll bring it to a vote. All right, thank you very much. Okay, thank you. All right, next we have Assemblymember Wood, and I see that we're blessed with quite a number of Assemblymembers here right now.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So if we went in normal order, we would go Assemblymember Wood, who's at the table, then Assemblymember Wilson, then Assemblymember Wicks, then Assemblymember Ting. And if just for future-- Oh, yes, you know what? You're right. We need to switch the order up a little bit. Yes, I see on my playbook here. We got it.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We'll switch the order. Yes. Assemblymember Ta, then Ting. All right. All right. Assemblymember Wood, floor is yours.
- Jim Wood
Person
I'd just like to comment that it's you actually have more Assemblymembers here than when we gavel down to start Assembly floor sessions. That's pretty amazing, Senator Umberg. And you're one shy of a quorum, which is also pretty amazing this early in the morning. So my hat's off to the Senate.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We are one shy. Thank you for noting that we are one shy of a quorum.
- Jim Wood
Person
All right. Good morning, Mister Chair and Members. I want to say thank you to the Chair for engaging with me on efforts to address the challenges of private equity and healthcare, and thank you to the members of the Committee. Several of you, I know I've spoken to personally several times.
- Jim Wood
Person
After much thought, I have committed to the Chair that I will draft author amendments to remove for-profit acute care hospitals from the bill. If the bill passes today, those amendments will be ready before the Appropriations Committee. For-profit hospital transactions must still notify OHCA as originally required in the bill.
- Jim Wood
Person
I do this with a great deal of disappointment. This bill is a product of many hours of discussions with Committee chairs and stakeholders, and although a number of stakeholders will not be happy with what I have described, no one will be less happy than me.
- Jim Wood
Person
I believe strongly that we should make progress where and when we can. Once this process is in place, if the bill passes and signed by the Governor, I'm confident the Attorney General will show that the review of these transactions will not be onerous and will protect Californians from increased cost and lack of access.
- Jim Wood
Person
AB 3129 has always been about protecting our communities, our patients, and all healthcare consumers from the potentially negative impacts of private equity transactions in healthcare. Private equity investment in healthcare has increased significantly over the past two decades.
- Jim Wood
Person
Transactions in healthcare in 2021 totaled $83 billion, $20 billion of that in California, compared to 12 billion and 1 billion respectively, in 2005. There is significant evidence that private equity investment across all outcome measures has most often increased costs to patients or payers and had mixed to harmful impacts on quality.
- Jim Wood
Person
Private equity's timelines are short, often three to seven years, and have occurred across the board in many areas. The transaction often used 60% to 80% debt, which then becomes a burden on the entity.
- Jim Wood
Person
We have many examples that show private equity firms use that debt to pay dividends to themselves and their investors, while at the same time leaving those acquired on the hook for that debt. That has resulted in a number of bankruptcies across the country, while at the same time leaving investors with high rewards instead of losses.
- Jim Wood
Person
I continue to be concerned about the effects of consolidation. When private equity purchases several practices in an area, especially in more rural areas, it can create a monopoly or close to it that uses its leverage to negotiate higher fees with health plans, in turn increasing healthcare premiums, employees and employers, and costs to patients.
- Jim Wood
Person
This bill will not prevent these transactions, but allows the Attorney General to review them and ensure that transactions don't result in limited or no care for certain populations or access to specialty or other care. You know me, I hope.
- Jim Wood
Person
I'm a healthcare provider that has always fought for increased access and affordable healthcare for all Californians, and I've dug into those issues deeply with much thought and commitment. We need oversight now. We can't wait. Why? Because there is none. Private equity is active in many arenas.
- Jim Wood
Person
The donut shop where you may have stopped on your way to work this morning, the nursing home where your grandmother resides, the apartment or single family home you rent. The veterinary clinic where you take Fido and Fluffy. This is all happening at an exponential rate. This trend is no longer emerging.
- Jim Wood
Person
It is here and it is growing every year. So I'm obliged to do what I can to keep this issue a priority. I'll get to work on the bill to address the amendments I've spoken about today and appreciate your support.
- Jim Wood
Person
Today I have with me to testify Deputy Attorney General Tiffany Brokaw from the AG's office, joined by Emilio Varanini, who will be available to answer technical questions. And Katie Van Deynze, the Policy And Legislative Advocate from Health Access California, is our second witness.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Assemblymember Wood. Let us establish a quorum. That ever elusive quorum. Madam Secretary, please call the roll for purpose of establishing quorum.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll call]. You have a quorum.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Thank you for witnessing this moment. At 08:18 a.m. the Senate Judiciary Committee has a quorum. All right. Thank you, Assemblymember Wood, for your work on this bill. I know that you feel quite passionate about this subject, and you've worked very, very hard.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And I know that some of these amendments are challenging for you and the folks who are support. A couple things, just to clear it up. I know you mentioned acute care hospitals, and that's a term of art in the statute, but it's all for-profit hospitals, correct? All for-profit hospitals. All right, thank you. Okay, let's turn to your witnesses.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
First witness, please.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
Good morning, Chair and Members. Tiffany Brokaw, Deputy Attorney General and Legislative Advocate of the California Department of Justice. I am here today on behalf of Attorney General Rob Bonta, who is a proud sponsor of AB 3129 and thanks Dr. Wood for his continued work to address consolidation in California's healthcare market.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
AB 3129 authorizes the Attorney General to review healthcare transactions involving private equity and hedge fund groups and reinforces the existing bar on the corporate practice of medicine as it applies to the interference of private equity groups or hedge funds in the medical care of patients.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
As Dr. Wood mentioned, we plan to exempt for-profit hospitals from the bill. So this bill focuses on private equity because a private equity business model which is designed to buy an asset, maximize profits and sell that asset, has concerning effects when applied to our healthcare system. And these transactions have doubled in the past decade.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
So in the healthcare context, we are seeing cuts to staff and services being made to increase profits. And then when that entity is sold, they could be susceptible to bankruptcy and further consolidation, jeopardizing the community's access to care.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
AB 3129 would set up oversight over these transactions where the Attorney General would be authorized to approve, deny or approve with conditions these transactions, based on whether they are in the public interest. The conditions that the AG would place on a transaction are designed to keep these services open and affordable.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
So, for example, a condition that the AG uses in his current role, reviewing nonprofit hospital transactions and that would be used in this context of private equity acquisitions, would be that services need to be maintained. So yes, this transaction can happen, but this provider group or long-term care facility would need to continue serving Medi-Cal patients.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
A condition can also come in the form of price increase caps, so that prices for services don't have skyrocket and become unaffordable. This review process is not an automatic denial of these transactions. The oversight is to help ensure that Californians have access to affordable health care and that services remain available to those who need it.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
For these reasons, we respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much, Ms. Brokaw. Others in support?
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
Good morning, Mister Chair and Senators. I'm Katie Van Deynze with Health Access California, the statewide healthcare consumer advocacy coalition, and we're here in support of AB 3129 by Assemblymember Wood.
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
For more than 30 years, Attorneys General of both parties have had the authority to approve, deny or approve with conditions mergers related to nonprofit health facilities. And in these last 30 years, between 80 and 90% of those proposed mergers have been approved, mostly with conditions to protect consumers.
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
And these conditions have been to keep services open and more recently, to prevent price hikes as a result of mergers, exactly the sort of conditions needed to protect access to affordable healthcare in the affected communities. This process is not new. What is new is that private equity is taking over hospitals, skilled nursing facilities, and doctors offices.
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
And research is showing that this can lead to price increases, dangerous impacts on quality and risks for access to care and loss of services. One study found that private equity acquisitions of physician practices leads to price increases ranging from 16% in oncology to 4% in primary care and dermatology.
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
And in communities where private equity dominate physician specialties compared to other US markets, price increases were up to three times higher. In a nursing homes, private equity ownership was found to increase death rates of patients with Medicare coverage by 10%.
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
AB 3129 was subject specific private equity transactions in healthcare to the same sort of scrutiny and oversight that nonprofit health facilities have been subject to for decades. And while the Office of Health Care Affordability, or OHCA, will be reviewing these acquisitions, they do not have the authority to approve, deny, or approve with conditions these acquisitions to protect consumers.
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
We need the AG to have the authority to act before an acquisition happens to prevent the potential harm to communities and protect affordable care. When there is a merger or acquisition in healthcare, we hear about the wonderful things that will happen: innovation, efficiency and more. And we want those things for our communities, too.
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
We want the Attorney General to have the authority to act now, to hold private equity accountable to those promises and prevent the negative impacts that we're worried about.
- Katelin Van Deynze
Person
And with the proposed amendments, we think that this-- while we're supportive of the bill prior, we still think this bill, with the acquisitions that are included, are very important to protect consumers from these private equity acquisitions and give the authority now for the AG to protect consumers. Thank you and I respectfully ask for your aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All those who are in support, please approach the microphone. Your name, your affiliation, your position?
- Brandon Marchy
Person
Mister Chair, Members of the Committee. Brandon Marchy with the California Medical Association, reviewing the amendments, but in support of the bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Sandra Barreiro
Person
Sandra Barreiro, on behalf of SEIU California, in support. Thank you.
- Timothy Madden
Person
Mister Chair, Members. Tim Madden, representing the California Chapter at the American College of Emergency Physicians, in support.
- Symphoni Barbee
Person
Good morning. Symphoni Barbee on behalf of Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California, in support.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Clifton Wilson on behalf of the California State Association of Psychiatrists, in support. Thank you.
- Sara Flocks
Person
Morning. Sara Flocks, California Labor Federation, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Janice O'Malley
Person
Janice O'Malley, AFSCME California, support.
- Samantha Seng
Person
Samantha Seng, NextGen California, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Others in support, please approach microphone. Seeing no one, all right, let's now turn to the opposition. If you're opposed, please come up. If you wouldn't mind, I think we're going to ask the opposition if you'd like to testify from the table. All right.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, Mister Praia, the microphone is yours.
- Marc Aprea
Person
Good morning, Mister Chair, Members of the Committee. Good morning. Assembly Member Wood, Marc Aprea, testifying in opposition to AB 3129 on behalf of our clients, American Investment Council and Children's Choice. A fundamental question we pose to the Committee is when does less capital in the marketplace lower prices?
- Marc Aprea
Person
And this measure, we believe, would thwart capital from being invested in California. Healthcare. AB 3129 picks winners and losers notwithstanding the Department of Managed Healthcare's regulation of Optum's licensed health plan transactions, DMHC does not regulate its acquisition of physician practices.
- Marc Aprea
Person
Optum, which employs over 70,000 physicians nationwide, finalized its acquisition of Beaver Medical Group in 2022, one of the largest multi-specialty medical groups in the Inland Empire with more than 1300 employees, including 900 Clinicians.
- Marc Aprea
Person
Why should Children's Choice, a 33 location pediatric dental practice providing dental care in underserved communities for children, have to comply with 3129, but Optum does not. We submit that the Legislature is looking to pick winners and losers.
- Marc Aprea
Person
OHA is the Office of Health Care Affordability, an organization formed in 2022 by the enactment of SB 184, provides a clear statement of the Legislature's intent that OHA.
- Marc Aprea
Person
It is the intent of the Legislature to establish a single entity within state government charged with referring transactions that may reduce market competition or increase cost to the Attorney General for further review. Further, the definitions of this Bill are imprecise and inconsistent. This is not a Bill that just covers private equity and hedge.
- Marc Aprea
Person
If all the Members on this dais wished to pool their funds, they would be covered by this Bill. However, one wealthy individual would be exempt from the process. Finally, the AG's authority to review and consent remains overly broad and we thank you, Mister Pratt. Alright, well, we would ask for a no vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, other witnesses in opposition.
- Katherine Scott
Person
Katherine Austen Scott with the California Hospital Association. We understand the amendments would remove for profit hospitals. Looking to understand how this would affect the remaining county hospitals, but we'll continue to look at the amendments and work with the Chair, the author and the sponsors on this issue. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Others in opposition.
- Meghan Loper
Person
Mister Chair and Members Meghan Loper, on behalf of the United Hospital Association. Similarly, we look forward to reviewing the amendments and understanding the effect. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Kelly Brooks-Lindsey
Person
Kelly Brooks. On behalf of the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors, we have an opposed, unless amended position. Our attorneys have been having positive conversations with the Attorney General's Office about exempting county hospitals, thank you.
- Frederick Noteware
Person
Mister Chair, Members, I'm Fred Noteworth, representing the Association of Mental Support Organizations. In opposition thank you. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty, thank you.
- Preston Young
Person
Thank you. Preston Young from the California Chamber of Commerce here today in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others.
- Kimberly Stone
Person
Kim Stone of stone advocacy on behalf of the California Orthopedic Association, removing opposition as of the last round of amendments. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you very much. All right, anyone else in opposition? Seeing no one else approaching the microphone, let's bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members.
- Richard Roth
Person
Moved the Bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Senator Roth has moved the Bill. All right. Questions or comments? Yes, Senator Laird. Senator Derosso, did you wish to. Yes. All right, Senator Laird,
- John Laird
Legislator
First let me ask a question which, and I apologize because I got here after I think you said you'd say, the amendment. Take the amendment or amendments. What's the impact of removing the for profit hospitals from this Bill?
- Jim Wood
Person
I kind of feel like the impact is instead of a full loaf of bread, I got three quarters of a loaf of bread. In other words, it is a hit to the Bill. I do firmly believe that hospitals should be considered. The for profit hospitals should be considered.
- Jim Wood
Person
But I do understand that Members of this Committee in particular have been well hammered by hospitals saying how awful and evil this is. And I recognize that I'd rather make progress on this than lose this. This area was a huge topic of concern during the development of OHCA.
- Jim Wood
Person
It was the one piece we couldn't get across the line because of the same kinds of opposition from the same players that we are dealing with now, and we are still fighting about that going forward.
- Jim Wood
Person
So my hope is that the other entities that will still be included, nursing homes, other practices, clinical labs, whatever, that the Attorney General can demonstrate that this is not the onerous process that is being claimed by the opposition and that the oversight is warranted and that a good outcome can happen, and that at some point somebody down the line can pick up the mantle and move this across the line for hospitals.
- John Laird
Legislator
And I talked to, I think, sometime around yesterday afternoon, I could no longer respond to people that were inquiring about this Bill, but I had conversations, and one of the conversations among the opponents said that they thought OHCA really had a purpose that didn't necessary necessarily necessitate this Bill, because you could follow OHCA.
- John Laird
Legislator
Could you speak to that?
- Jim Wood
Person
That is really not true. OHCA is after the fact. OHCA will review transactions and look at impacts to the market, but they have no jurisdiction to actually affect whether the transaction can happen. What we simply wanted was the opportunity for the AG to look at this.
- Jim Wood
Person
What's happening in other states is that, and with other entities in California. So, I mean, for example, with hospitals. This has happened in back east. There was one hospital chain that has now gone bankrupt, about 20 hospitals, all acquired by private equity.
- Jim Wood
Person
My hope was that if that were to begin to happen here in California, we would be able to look at that proactively and determine, you know, will these transactions lead to potential problems going forward? OHCA doesn't cover that. It simply doesn't.
- Jim Wood
Person
And it's been a red herring from the beginning, and it's disingenuous to say that, to say otherwise, quite frankly.
- John Laird
Legislator
Then let me get to the comment I was going to make, and you teed it up, because I have two hospitals in my district that are sort of textbook cases about this law, and they are on different sides of that profit nonprofit equation.
- John Laird
Legislator
That's why I'm trying to figure it out with Watsonville, which I think some of my colleagues are probably tired of hearing me talk about. That is where two years ago, a private equity firm had acquired it and ran it completely into the ground.
- John Laird
Legislator
They announced they were going to just close it, 625 people, the only hospital for a disadvantaged community for miles either way. And fortunately, it got kicked into bankruptcy court so that I could do a Bill in a matter of days creating a public hospital district.
- John Laird
Legislator
The bankruptcy court, within mantle of days of it becoming a district, could accept the bid. And then we raised $65 million over six months. They've passed a bond. They're just barely making it, but they're there and they're making it.
- John Laird
Legislator
And if there had been the chance to examine a private equity firm that had never run a hospital before, we could see coming out that that was the case now in Hollister with Hazel Hawkins, it is a public district. They are pursuing a private partner. I think, fortunately for everyone, it has to go to the voters.
- John Laird
Legislator
And I think in November, I will be really surprised if it passes. And it is the other way. They could, in my view, manage the hospital, take some tough steps, but manage the hospital and figure out how to get there.
- John Laird
Legislator
And if this leaves nonprofits in, then there's a chance to review that in a way that you could assess that somebody that's out of state, with limited financial capability and doesn't know the state might not be the best person or entity to take over the hospital.
- John Laird
Legislator
So that's why I think this Bill is necessary, is because we have nothing to address those issues. And we sit there and watch a hospital in a disadvantaged community just go completely under, and we have a second one we're watching that could go completely under.
- John Laird
Legislator
And while I understand that this is a very complex Bill and that there are things in it that always might need some tinkering. I think the concept is really appropriate for the times, and I will be voting for the Bill when we get to that. Thank you, Mister Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Senator Durazo, also, then Senator Roth, then me. All right, Senator Durazo, I want to.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Thank you, thank the author for bringing and introducing this Bill and for caring so much about our healthcare system, having that kind of vision. I just wanted to, if there is anything besides OCHA that the opposition has raised that you think it's important to remind us about.
- Jim Wood
Person
Actually, you know, OCHA, like I said, has been the flashpoint. We worked for two and a half years, worked closely with the Administration to get OCHA across the line, and we heard many of the same debates around this particular issue in OCHA. Ultimately, we weren't successful there, and that's kind of why we're leaning on this area.
- Jim Wood
Person
But this, unlike other efforts in the consolidation area, this is very narrowly focused because there is no oversight at all on private equity in the healthcare space, period. And it is not an emerging issue. It is here and it is creating challenges for the delivery of healthcare.
- Jim Wood
Person
I think the other opposition is that this will somehow stifle investment. It's like, no, this will not stifle investment, but it will look at if that investment leads to control of the entity. And that's the key thing.
- Jim Wood
Person
If someone wants to come in and invite private equity to invest in them, as long as they don't take control, they can do that. And I think that's also been disingenuous opposition there too, because we're not trying to stifle that investment. What we're trying to get is oversight.
- Jim Wood
Person
If that investment leads to control of the entity and all the potential challenges that that entity will face going forward. And that's so I think, you know, I've been fighting what I feel in times has been really disingenuous opposition, and, you know, it's been challenging to get across because it is a complicated topic.
- Jim Wood
Person
But I appreciate your questions and your comments. Thank you.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair. You know, to respond to the question on the for profit Hofstra, you know, these tend to be large. They don't tend to be very many transactions. They tend to be rather huge transactions when there is a sale. They're also, it's the for profit marketplace.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Roth.
- Richard Roth
Person
So there's probably a little bit more of an even playing field when the private equity comes to head to head with a for profit hospital and the team that the for profit has. So I'm not too concerned about the elimination, least at this point, of the for profit hospitals from the Bill.
- Richard Roth
Person
Although I know the author is extremely disappointed. I've spent a fair amount of time on this Bill and this issue. In another context, I will say this. I don't think all private equity is equal.
- Richard Roth
Person
And I think there are instances where private equity probably brings something to the table, particularly where we're trying to fund seismic retrofit and a variety of other things in the healthcare arena, where we're trying to continue to provide healthcare services in our medically underserved areas like the Central Valley.
- Richard Roth
Person
But unfortunately, you know, and the opposition knows because I've said this to them, I have asked for clarifying language for this Bill to try to separate out private equity from the good and the bad, what the bad techniques are, what the good techniques are, what techniques cause problems for others, including the Attorney General.
- Richard Roth
Person
And I have yet to see any language.
- Richard Roth
Person
So I guess what will happen here is, should this Bill pass out, and I hope it does, that we will see the impact of the Bill, the actions of the Attorney General, and we will be able to sort out as legislators, those who are still here, what needs to be done to tweak this Bill to allow private equity investment where it benefits the healthcare delivery system and continue to rein it in where it does not.
- Richard Roth
Person
So thank you, Mister chair, for allowing me to make my comments.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Roth. Senator Wilk.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair. I agree with the comments of Senator Roth that there is good equity and bad equity, and I have seen equity firms come in and do horrible things, particularly in housing space in my district. But they're also. You need capital to survive.
- Scott Wilk
Person
We've been asking kind of, I don't want to say they're one sided questions, but kind of teeing it up for the author, which is fine, but Mister Aprae, do you want to comment at all on what's been discussed?
- Marc Aprea
Person
I again appreciate the author's engagement with us, as well as the Committee and the staff. I want to differ with Assembly Member Wood on 1.0 as to whether OHCA is after the fact. So when a transaction that's covered by OHCA is submitted to OHCA, it has to be done 90 days prior to the transaction.
- Marc Aprea
Person
Furthermore, OHCA has the ability to require that the applicant provide them answers to questions that they may have and may extend that 90 days by a significant term.
- Marc Aprea
Person
And so the idea that this, that OHCA only looks at things in the rearview mirror, I believe is not correct that it is prospective and that during that time that OHCA then would have the opportunity, if they see that there's an over concentration in the marketplace or that there is a risk to exceeding the price caps that OHCA has, which for 2025 is 3.5% and lowers down to 3% in 2029, that they have the obligation and the ability to refer that matter to the Attorney General for their review.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Any other questions, comments? No other questions or comments. All right, thank you very much. Once again, Assembly Member Wood, Mister Aprea has raised some important points, and I know you personally and professionally that you will continue to work on this. The issue concerning definitions is an important one as it leaves the Legislature, as I expect it well.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And in terms of private equity, the point about additional capital being invested in California in the healthcare market is a critical question.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
One that we struggled with, you and I struggled with, and I think the state struggles with the efficacy of any sort of approval is something that we'll continue to watch to make sure that we are not unnecessarily stifling progress here in California, not unnecessarily stifling capital from being invested here in the healthcare industry.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So with that, would you like to close?
- Jim Wood
Person
Yes. First of all, thank you, Mister Chair. Thank you to Senator Roth for your work on this Bill in Senate health. I really appreciate it. I think, you know, the opposition and I are going to agree to disagree on things.
- Jim Wood
Person
It is, you know, OHCA can make a referral to the AG, but then the AG has no authority to approve or disapprove of the transaction, to the best of my knowledge. And that's really what we're trying to establish here. I don't have. I absolutely agree. There's good private equity and bad private equity.
- Jim Wood
Person
I think it's incumbent on us to really be able to look at the situation and try to make a best determination as to what is good and what is bad. And there is, there are track records for organizations out there that give us that opportunity.
- Jim Wood
Person
That initial transaction where he said that if Mister Aprea said that if a group wanted to get together and buy something that would be considered private equity, the first transaction would be exempt. It's the second and third transactions within seven years that would be looked at. And that is, I think that's an important, that's an important point.
- Jim Wood
Person
And then with regards to Children's Choice, my understanding is that mostly how they operate is buying is not buying practices, it's building new practices. And I have no objection if private equity wants to come in and build something from the ground up.
- Jim Wood
Person
It's when you begin to accumulate practices and then have that undue influence to create an uncompetitive marketplace for healthcare that the problems arise, and so I want to thank you again. Appreciate your attention and the Committee's attention, and I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you very much. Is there a motion?
- Committee Secretary
Person
Yes.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I'm sorry. Senator Roth moves the Bill. Senator Roth has moved the Bill. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Roll Call
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Ready 4-2. We'll put that on call your next Bill. Thank you. Thank you very much. File item number? No, I'm sorry. File item number three.
- Jim Wood
Person
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good morning. Once again, I'd first like to thank the Committee staff for their efforts on this measure. State law prohibits flavored tobacco products in California, but unfortunately, they remain readily available throughout the state. The high rate of flavored tobacco use among youth is especially concerning.
- Jim Wood
Person
A 2023 study by the CDC indicates that among middle and high school students who use tobacco, nearly 90% use flavored products. AB 3218 creates a pathway to ensuring flavored tobacco products are no longer available on the shelves of retailers and in our communities.
- Jim Wood
Person
By creating an affirmative listing of unflavored tobacco products legal in California. This approach will help retailers determine at a glance whether a product delivered to their stores is legal or not. Additionally, the bill authorizes the Attorney General to penalize distributors that sell illegal tobacco products and manufacturers that falsely certify their products are unflavored.
- Jim Wood
Person
And finally, the bill authorizes law enforcement to seize illegal tobacco products. These comprehensive enforcement steps will help implement the flavored tobacco pan the way it was intended. Here with me to testify in support is Tiffany Brokaw with the Attorney General's Office, the sponsor of the bill.
- Jim Wood
Person
Byron Miller with the Attorney General's Office, is also available to answer technical questions. I respectfully ask for your support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you, Miss Brokaw. Go ahead.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
Good morning, Chair and Members. Tiffany Brokaw.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
You may need to just pull it a little closer. There we go.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
Hello? Oh, perfect. Okay. Thanks for your patience.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
Tiffany Brokaw, deputy attorney general and legislative advocate for the California Department of Justice, here today on behalf of Attorney General Rob Bonta, who is the proud sponsor of AB 3218, along with our co-sponsors Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, the American Lung Association, the American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
As Dr. Wood mentioned, this bill will ensure the successful implementation of the flavored tobacco ban. When the ban went into effect, our office received a number of inquiries asking for guidance and assistance in effectuating the rollout of the law.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
Our office drafted AB 3218 in response to these inquiries and is the next step in accomplishing the band's policy goals of getting these flavored tobacco products out of the hands of our youth. AB 3218 will establish a publicly available list of all tobacco products that are permissibly unflavored and allowed to be sold in California.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
The development of such a list has long been a recommendation of public health advocates who have looked at our office's tobacco directory list as a leading example of how a publicized, curated list can provide clarity to industry participants and law enforcement on what products can and cannot be sold.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
This bill will also render illegal flavored products contraband so that such products can be quickly removed from commerce and never reach our kids. It will hold the distribution chain accountable at a higher level. It will clarify the definition of characterizing flavor to specifically prohibit products that impart menthol-like cooling sensations.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
Our office saw that after the flavor ban went into effect, new tobacco products were introduced to the market that were aimed to work around the ban. So by clarifying the definition, this ban will encompass these edge and work around products that have been subject to debate and litigation.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
And lastly, 3218 will also authorize the Attorney General to omit from the unflavored list any tobacco products lacking the required FDI authorization. AB 3218 would hold. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. You urge an aye vote? All right. Thank you. All right, others in support. Others in support, please approach the microphone.
- Timothy Gibbs
Person
Tim Gibbs, campaign for tobacco-free kids. Proud co-sponsor.
- Jamie Morgan
Person
Jamie Morgan, proud co-sponsor on behalf of the American Heart Association.
- Kelly Brooks-Lindsey
Person
Kelly Brooks, on behalf of the County Health Executives Association of California and the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors, here in support.
- Autumn Ogden
Person
Autumn Ogden-Smith, with the American Cancer Society, Cancer Action Network. Proud co-sponsor, in support.
- Catherine Senderling-Mcdonald
Person
Cathy Senderling-McDonald for the County of Alameda, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Kesa Bruce
Person
Kesa Bruce, American Lung Association, in support.
- Brandon Marchy
Person
Brandon Marchy, with the California Medical Association, in support.
- Kelly Macmillan
Person
Kelly MacMillan, on behalf of California Dental Association, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Others in support, please approach. Seeing no one else approaching, opposition. Welcome, thank you.
- John Winger
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair and Members. John Winger, on behalf of the California Fuels and Convenience Alliance. We represent the majority of gas stations and convenience stores in the state. First and foremost, CFCA supports creating a directory that gives our members clarity on what we can and cannot sell.
- John Winger
Person
However, we continue to have an opposed, unless amended position on the bill. I think we continue to have concerns with the broad discretion for the AG to be able to pull legal products off the list.
- John Winger
Person
And we continue to have concerns with the expansion of the definition of characterizing flavor that we think is overly broad and could result in more products being pulled off the shelves, which will just bolster the illicit market even further.
- John Winger
Person
And so, unfortunately, while we support the directory, we do continue to have concerns with the bill and have an opposed unless amended position.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much. Others in opposition? Seeing no one else approach the microphone, let's bring it back to Committee. Seeing no questions or comments. Is there a motion?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Senator Wilk has moved the bill. Would you like to close?
- Jim Wood
Person
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just to comment to the opposition, there are very few legal products actually approved for sale. The FDA has several thousand products that they are under review. They have chosen not to enforce against those products, but they are not considered legal products.
- Jim Wood
Person
I have no problem with legal products. But these other products are not. And until the FDA approves them, they're not considered legal for sale.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, well, thank you. So this is a challenging, another challenging situation. Not quite as challenging as the one before, as the bill before. I understand there's a million pending applications at the FDA for approval of products that were not originally required to get prior approval under existing law.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
On balance, I think the state should give some deference to the FDA's exercise of prosecutorial discretion when the Attorney General uses his own discretion. However, I think it's unwise to statutorily enact the FDA's current prosecutorial stance into state statute as it's not static and could change in the future.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So I hope that the Attorney General will consider the FDA's policy in making its own judgment as to what should be approved. Not approved. And with that, there's a question or a motion? Question. Oh, Senator Wilk.
- Richard Roth
Person
May I ask a question, Mister? So I'm just curious. So we have unflavored products. The FDA has not blessed them and let's say there's no question that they're unflavored. There's not even a.
- Richard Roth
Person
Nothing in there, other than tobacco, are those capable of being, you know, you've heard from the cigar people, for example, and there are others, I'm sure. Can those products be sold?
- Jim Wood
Person
You know, I would say that's up to discretion of the Attorney General. If a company has certified to the FDA that their products are unflavored, the Attorney General, like the FDA, could not enforce until there's actual proof that they are.
- Jim Wood
Person
So I'm assuming I shouldn't assume anything but that when an entity certifies that their product is unflavored to the FDA, there's a penalty for them if that is not true, one of which would be the loss of the product to the market. And so I think the fear is that the Attorney General would over enforce in this.
- Jim Wood
Person
And I don't have that fear, quite frankly. I'm more concerned that the truly flavored products that are out on the market are not available or are pulled off the market and not available.
- Jim Wood
Person
And so really, the premise here is to create an affirmative list, which we are trying to do, and we can't compel the FDA to move faster on this. And I'm comfortable with the Attorney General using his discretion and following the lead of the FDA.
- Richard Roth
Person
Well, I tend to agree with you. In the first place, there's still a ton of people who, I suspect, still smoke.
- Richard Roth
Person
And if unflavored products are banned or there's an attempt to do so, I'm sure there'll be an uproar in the public, but more importantly, it'll cause a disruption to the commercial market, which we probably don't want either. So I suspect it all going to sort itself out.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you for tolerating my question and for your patience, Mr. Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Senator Roth. All right, there's been a motion by Senator Wilk. Would you like to close?
- Jim Wood
Person
Respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay. Thank you very much. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This file, item number three, AB 3218, the motion is do pass the Senate appropriations. Umberg? Umberg, aye. WIlk? Wilk, aye. Allen? Ashby? Caballero? Durazo? Durazo, aye. Laird? Laird, aye. Niello? Niello, no. Roth? Roth, aye. Stern? Wahab? Five to one.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, we'll put that on call. Thank you very much. All right, a couple things. One, let's go ahead. If there's a motion on the consent calendar. Senator Durazo has moved the consent calendar, and we're going to switch things up a little bit. I'm going to call assemblymember Wicks.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
If you would come up, and then we'll go with Assembly Member Wilson immediately afterwards, we're going to talk for just a second, okay? All right, so first we're going to do the consent count,
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And then number one.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I'm sorry,
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Did we do one? Did we take a vote on one?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Sure, sure. Okay, we'll do item number one, and then we'll go to the consent calendar. So one first? Yes.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Motion on file item number one.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Senator Laird has moved it.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Okay, file item number one, AB 2889, the motion is do pass to the Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call]
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
4-1. We'll put that on call. All right, next, the consent calendar. It's been moved by Senator Durazo.
- Committee Secretary
Person
On the consent calendar. [Roll Call]
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, we'll put that on call. All right, thank you. All right, I'm going to turn the gavel over to Senator Wilk, and Senator Wilk, if you would assume the chairmanship. And I'll be back in just a second.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Next is file item six, AB 1949, by Assembly Member Wicks with a recommendation of do pass to do pass as amended to appropriations. With that, the floor is yours.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
Thank you, Mr. Chair and members. First, I want to thank the chair for his personal engagement on this bill, and should he return, I will thank him personally when he gets back and also want to discuss with him some of the amendments.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
But I'm taking the amendments today, including the knowledge standard under the premise of the conversation that the chair and I had around, you know, the Attorney General, and I will be continuing to work with him over the break as this bill should pass moves into appropriations to ensure that the.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
The term cannot be interpreted and applied to afford blanket immunity to the platform. So I think there's still some work to do, and obviously we'll want to work with the committee as well as the chair on that, but I'm happy to have that conversation with him, too, if he returns in time.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
Following the investigation of Attorney General Bonta in 2023, it was revealed that meta knows that its social media platforms are used by millions of children under the age of 13, including at 1.0 about 30% of all 10 to 12 year olds, and it unlawfully collects their personal information. As amended, AB 1949 will help to ensure.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
Will help to keep children under 18 and their data safe from being collected and exploited without parental consent. The measure will prohibit businesses from collecting, using, or disclosing the personal information of Californians under 18 without affirmative authorization. For users under 13, affirmative approval must come from a parent.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
Opposition will contend that this will unconstitutionally restrict teens and adults access to lawful speech. To be clear, AB 1949 does not regulate content, speech, or access to content or speech. The age requirement determines what privacy and data collection policies apply to the specific user.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
The data at issue in this bill concerns a vulnerable population that should be given elevated protection. It is important to note that businesses can apply the requirements of 1849 to all consumers, not only to minors, thereby eliminating any requirement to employ age assurance tools, if not already.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
Businesses should elevate their data collection practices and determine what is necessary to operate rather than what is suitable for profits. You know, I've done a number of bills in this space, you know, and I come to this as a mom.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
I've got a four year old, almost four year old, her birthday's next month, and a seven year old. And as I see how they are engaging in the world, it's a whole different world than when we were kids. And I'm not a Luddite. My children have access to screen time, and we have regulations around that.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
But I strongly believe our number one job as lawmakers is to keep our community safe, specifically our most vulnerable, which are our children. And so, again, I've done a lot of work in this space. To me, this is an important step in the right direction to guard their privacy and protect their privacy.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
I've been working very collaboratively with our sponsors, the Attorney General's Office, who also has deep concern about this. They're going to be here to testify. I do want to recognize now that the chair is back, chair I'd mentioned earlier right before you had left, I'll be taking the committee amendments today.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
But as you and I discussed, I wanted to keep working on the knowledge standard because I don't want it to be something that's blank immunity for the platforms. So I know you and I talked about that privately. I wanted to put that on the record here for committee, though.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
We've done this dance before, and you're a good partner in all of this, so I look forward to those continued conversations, and sorry for blowing up your break, but I know we'll have more conversations on that.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Well, you won't be the only one, so. All right, thank you. Great.
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
And with that, I'll let my witnesses testify.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Go ahead. The floor is yours.
- Amy Alley
Person
Good morning, chair and members. I'm Amy Alley, a Deputy Attorney General and the Legislative Director at the Department of Justice here on behalf of Attorney General Rob Bonta, who is proud to sponsor AB 1949, the California Children's Data Privacy Act. Our esteemed author, Assemblymember Wicks, thank you for leading on this bill.
- Amy Alley
Person
And it's a simple, graceful solution to strengthen data privacy protections for children and improve child safety online.
- Amy Alley
Person
AB 1949 fills a gap in California law as part of a larger effort to create a safer online environment for California's kids, using all of our tools from the courthouse to the Capitol to stop a race among massive corporations to collect and use kids data for profit.
- Amy Alley
Person
Last fall, Attorney General Bonta, along with state attorneys general from across the country, sued Meta for misleading users and putting children in harm's way.
- Amy Alley
Person
Our lawsuit alleges that the company violated federal and state laws, disregarding serious dangers about the impact of social media use on kids mental health, building a business model focused on maximizing young users time on the platform, employing harmful and psychologically manipulative platform features, and lying about it.
- Amy Alley
Person
This one company's conduct is deceptive, dangerous, and illegal, and it is just one piece of a really significant crisis facing our children. Our children spend more and more time online in front of screens for school play, self expression, connection and exploration.
- Amy Alley
Person
That time spent online has a negative impact on their mental health, their ability to learn and to see, their feelings of exclusion and susceptibility to addiction.
- Amy Alley
Person
The collection and exploitation of children's personal information is in large part what enables businesses to harness the algorithmic delivery of content designed to lead to social media addiction in children and drive up company profits in the process.
- Amy Alley
Person
In addition to adverse consequences of the time spent online, the collection of children's data by these giant companies also puts our kids at grave risk, leaving them vulnerable to having their location and other personal data tracked.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much, you urge an aye vote great.
- Amy Alley
Person
Thank you. I will say no more.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, others in support. If you're in support, please approach the microphone.
- Kimberly Stone
Person
Winning turn. Members Kim Stone, Stone Advocacy on behalf of the Children's Advocacy Institute, in enthusiastic support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Symphoni Barbee
Person
Good morning, chair and members. Symphoni Barbee on behalf of Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Becca Cramer-Mowder on behalf of ACLU California Action. We have a support, if amended, position. We're reviewing the amendments. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Krystal Straight
Person
Krystal Straight on behalf of Common Sense Media in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, seeing no one else approaching, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 1949, please approach the microphone or the table, whichever you choose.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Thank you. Thank you, chair and members, and thank you to the author. Ronak Daylami with Cal Chamber respectfully in opposition to AB 1949, our member companies do take seriously the privacy rights, especially of children.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
But we have had significant concerns with this bill in print, as it would have the opposite effect intended, as it makes it impossible for a business to ensure compliance unless it engages in age verification.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
To that end, we do thank the committee and the author for the amendments and the analysis, pending review of the official language, of course, we believe that by virtue of reinstating the actual knowledge standard, the amendments vastly reduce many of our concerns.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Despite our opposition to the bill in print, we do see a path forward where an AB 1949 meaningfully strengthens children's privacy rights in a more balanced manner that can be more readily operationalized by businesses without posing unintended consequences to get there.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
However, we do believe that the other provisions related to the collection, use and disclosure, section 1798.100 and .121, that those need to revert to existing law. That said, again, we look forward to working with the author and looking at the amendments, including some of the language around actual knowledge. But we do oppose. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Next primary witness in opposition.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Thank you, Mister chair and members. Dawn Koepke on behalf of the Computer and Communications Industry Association.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, others in opposition.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Tracy Rosenberg with Oakland Privacy. We were opposed unless amended. We'll be taking a look at the amendments. We think it's very possible we'll be able to drop our opposition, but not quite sure yet.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Dylan Hoffman on behalf of Tech Net. Align our comments with the chamber. Respectfully opposed. Thank you.
- Mark Sagna
Person
Thank you. Mark Sagna with the American Property Capital Insurance Association opposed the bill. Thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Thank you. -- on behalf of the Car Frontier Foundation, in opposition until we remove the amendments.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Seeing no others approach the microphone, let's now bring it back to committee. Questions by Committee Members. Questions by Committee Members. Senator Wilk?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Yeah, I don't have a question. I just have a comment. This is a great bill. Plan to support it today. We've got to protect. We've got to protect these kids, and we don't do a very good job. I want to share something that happened to me earlier this year, which I found offensive.
- Scott Wilk
Person
So I had a health scare. Ends up, I'm okay. But I got my information back from my Doctor in the hospital through a private app, my chart. And then I open it. And then 10 minutes later, I start getting stuff on the disease I might have had. That is frightening to me.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I know they're doing it to everybody. So when, you know, when the chamber comes up says, oh, our companies care about privacy rights. No, they don't. They care about turning a profit. And we need to protect our kids. So I'll be supporting your bill today.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, that sounds like a motion. Senator Wilk has moved the bill. Other questions or comments? Seeing no other questions or comments. Thank you very much, Assemblymember Wicks. Thank you for working so diligently on this. This has been a challenging bill, and we'll continue to work on it over the summer.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So some of Wicks would you like to close?
- Buffy Wicks
Legislator
Just respectfully ask for an aye vote. I appreciate your partnership. I think we do have to figure out a broader strategy around some of the knowledge standard stuff, which I know you and I have discussed. So I look forward to working on that in the future with you as well. Respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much. Assemblymember Wilk has moved the bill. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Scott Wilk
Person
He called you an Assembly Member? He demoted me again.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I'm sorry. I did. I apologize. Yes. Governor Wilk has moved the Bill, so. Right. Okay. All right, here we go. Okay. Madam Secretary, call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is filed item number six, AB 1949. The motion is do pass, as amended, to Senate appropriations. [Roll Call]
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, we'll put that on call. All right. Assemblymember Wilson, back to you. Item number four, AB 2319.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you, chair. Recognizing your day is long, we will try to make this as quick as possible.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Although this is extremely important and we've given our witnesses, we've noted to our witnesses to be as brief as possible while getting their point across, I'm pleased to present AB 2319 a bill that aims to reduce the alarming and disproportionate maternal mortality rate of black women and other pregnant persons of color, by ensuring successful implementation of SB 464, the California Dignity and Pregnancy and Childware Act of 2019.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
A recent study by the California Department of Public Health found that women of color, and particularly black women, die of pregnancy related complications at a much higher rate than white women in California, this disparity exists at all income levels.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
To address this, the California State Legislature passed the act in 2019, which requires hospitals, alternative birth centers, and primary care clinics, which are the facilities covered under the act, to conduct evidence based implicit bias training for all health professionals who provide care during a patient's pregnancy, childbirth, and immediate postpartum period.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
In August 2021, the Department of Justice launched an investigation to ascertain compliance with the act. While some facilities went above and beyond the requirements of act, there is still more work to be done for full compliance.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
The DOJ investigation revealed that there is a need for enforcement mechanisms, public transparency of compliance data, firm compliance deadlines, and additionally specificity and clarity so that facilities are better equipped to know which providers need to be trained.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
AB 2319 makes the necessary adjustments to ensure we are doing what we can to protect black birthing people in the State of California. With me today is Tiffany Brokaw from the Attorney General's Office and Monica Washington, a mother who has unfortunately experienced racial biases firsthand and would like to tell her story.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, first, Miss Brokaw, we haven't seen you in a while. Go ahead.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
I'm glad there was a gap there from when you saw me last. So, anyway, good morning, Mister chair and members Tiffany Brokaw, Deputy Attorney General and legislative advocate at the California Department of Justice, here today on behalf of Attorney General Rob Bonta, who is one of the proud sponsors of AB 2319.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
The United States has the highest maternal mortality rate in the developed world, and in California, people of color, particularly black women, continue to die at three to four times the rate of white women. So to address this, the legislature passed SB 464 in 2019.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
And it's one thing for a lot to be passed, but it's another to make sure that it's implemented properly. So the DOJ launched an investigation to ascertain compliance with the act, and from that investigation, DOJ found ways to better equip health facilities to comply with the law.
- Tiffany Brokaw
Person
And those recommendations are reflected in AB 2319 and they are to provide clarity on which facilities are mandated to administer the trainings which employees need to be trained establishing for deadlines for which trainings must be completed, confer enforcement powers to the DOJ and authorize the DOJ to post compliance data online so the public can see which facilities did or did not administer these trainings. And for these reasons, respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Next witness, please. Go ahead.
- Monica Washington
Person
Yes, I'm Monica Washington. I live in South Sacramento. I'm a mother of three and a homeschool mom and wife. Black women have 40% more miscarriages than white women in the US, and most of them are due to treatable conditions.
- Monica Washington
Person
This statistic became of utmost importance for me to know, because for the last four years, I've endured four unexplained miscarriages in a row with no end in sight of. My most recent one was in March. It wasn't until this fourth one that I finally get a diagnosis.
- Monica Washington
Person
Chronic endometritis, a treatable bacterial infection of the endometrium known for at least the past 25 years to cause infertility and recurrent miscarriages.
- Monica Washington
Person
But because I am a black woman and also of advanced maternal age, I was selectively denied the opportunity to at least to be offered the diagnostic testing to see if chronic endometritis was indeed the culprit for me of all of the sudden of me having sudden miscarriages.
- Monica Washington
Person
Not only am I a black woman of advanced maternal age, but I am also a Medi-Cal recipient, which left me vulnerable to insurance bias and selective withholding of Care Healthcare Services, not because my insurance didn't cover it, but because the Doctor didn't think I was deserving of a certain kind of screening and care.
- Monica Washington
Person
So repeatedly, year after year, doctors were giving me the bare minimum, bottom of the barrel ob-gyn care, and I knew it. So I literally hopped around from one ob-gyn clinic and hospital to another, hoping to find a Doctor who wouldn't write me off because of my skin color and my age.
- Monica Washington
Person
In all of my experience with different facilities, I have learned that for a black woman on Medi-Cal seeking optimum standard of care, it didn't matter what facility I went to. Bias and discrimination from one or multiple people in any given facility always found me. I experienced it at Sacramento County Health center, capital ob-gyn.
- Monica Washington
Person
Sutter, Wellspace Health.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Ma'am, I'm going to ask you to wrap it up, please.
- Monica Washington
Person
Sure. I didn't almost die in my maternal care crisis because I am black. I almost died because of how a Doctor decided to treat me because I am black. I didn't have four miscarriages in a row because I am black. I had them because of withholding and neglect the standard of care.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I assume you're urging an aye vote, right?
- Monica Washington
Person
Yes, sir.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you very much. Okay. All right, those in support, please approach the microphone. Give us your name, your affiliation, your position.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
Good morning, chair. My name is Onyemma Obiekea with Black Women for Wellness and Black Women for Wellness Action project proud co sponsors in support. Thank you.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Becca Cramer Mowder on behalf of ACLU California Action in support.
- Nora Lynn
Person
Nora Lynn with Children Now in support, thank you
- Kelly Brooks-Lindsey
Person
Kelly Brooks on behalf of the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors, in support, thank you.
- Symphoni Barbee
Person
Symphoni Barbee on behalf of Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California in support, thank you.
- Carol Gonzalez
Person
Hi, Carol Gonzalez on behalf of HOPE, Hispanas Organized for Political Equality in support. Thank you.
- Jennifer Robles
Person
Thank you, Jennifer Robles with Health Access California in support.
- Nicole Wordelman
Person
Nicole Wordelman on behalf of the Children's Partnership in support, thank you.
- Lily McKay
Person
Lily McKay on behalf of First Five California and First Five LA in support, thank you.
- Kelly Macmillan
Person
Kelly Macmillan on behalf of Marcia Dimes and the California Commission on the Status of Women and Girls.
- Catherine Senderling-Mcdonald
Person
Cathy Senderling-Mcdonald for the County of Alameda, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Sandra Poole
Person
Sandra Poole on behalf of Western Center on Law and Poverty proud co sponsor, in support, thank you.
- Genesis Gonzalez
Person
Good morning. Genesis Gonzalez on behalf of Lieutenant Governor Eleni Kounalakis, in support. Thank you.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Clifton Wilson on behalf of the City and County of San Francisco Board of Supervisors as well as the California State Association of Psychiatrists, both in support, thank you.
- Michelle Rubalcava
Person
Thank you, Michelle Rubalcava with Nielsen Merksamer on behalf of the San Diego County Board of Supervisors in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Beth Malinowski
Person
Good morning. Beth Malinowski, the SEIU California in support.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Thank you, Dawn Koepke, on behalf of the Child Abuse Prevention Center and California Family Resource Association support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Seeing no one else approach the mic, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2319 please come forward. Seeing no one coming forward, let's bring it back to committee questions by committee members. Senator Roth has moved the bill. Senator Niello has a question. Senator Wilk has a question.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Thank you, Mister chair. This is a significant issue, a significant problem. I agree. And something this significant is rarely due to just one factor. And as your witness pointed out, a significant factor in the issue is Medi Cal.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Racism can have a factor, but perhaps we're missing the role of poverty that forces people to Medi-care, that restricts access significantly. Seems to me that ought to be part of the issue.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Also, if this bill passes and if the Attorney General has enforcement responsibilities, I hope he will view his responsibility to enforce as being larger than just one particular target and perhaps go after the dysfunction of our Medicare system because we, we under pay and therefore many physicians don't accept Medi Cal patients and there's a serious lack of access.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
That is a significant issue in this particular problem. And again, if the bill passes, I hope that the Attorney General will recognize that and perhaps try to do something about it.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you, Senator, to the chair. Thank you, Senator, for your comments and wholly agree with them. And what we found from the DOJ's audit is there were several issues that led to the disarm, the alarming rates related to black maternal health, and a less successful outcome. And it is across all income levels.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And so we, as the black caucus, when hearing upon that, have set out to address the issue with multiple bills. This is the first of many that you will see related to this particular issue based on that audit.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And so we will address all of the issues that came forth, but this was one of them that having got it halfway through the session, we felt like as a great start because we felt like it was low hanging fruit for the implicit bias, recognizing that hospitals wanted to do it, were doing it, but there wasn't clarity around it.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And so we thought that was easier to start with. And then the rest are a bit more complex, and they will be before you in the new session.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
I don't think there's anything complex at all about the problems with Medicare under reimbursement and lack of access. And I really wish that you would have included that aspect in your bill.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And when I mean complex, I mean writing the law can get a little hairy sometimes.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much, Senator Wilk.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, Mister chair. I'm supporting the bill today. I concur with my colleague that it's a. It's more comprehensive, but in LA County they do a healthcare assessment every three years. And it's broken down by service provider, area spas. And the Antelope Valley, which is in my district, is spa number one.
- Scott Wilk
Person
And if you look at those health outcomes, they are horrible. But when it relates to black women and black infant mortality, it's on par with the third world country. So there's things going on. So I think we again, a holistic approach, but happy to support your proposal today.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you so much.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Senator Durazo.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Thank you. I want to thank the author very much and our witness for being here and everyone who's working on this issue. Thank you. Thank you. Not only on behalf of black women, but how that impact also on other women of color, immigrants, immigrant women.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
So what you're doing is helping all women who face that, face that bias, who face that racism, face that discrimination. And we've gone through this in past decades, but it never seems to stop. And I'm proud that you're offering partial solution to that.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
But we can go back just a few decades, to when we were forcibly sterilized, when, you know, just outrageous things like that happening, stemming from the racism towards especially women of color and black women. So thank you for doing this.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Saying no other questions or comments, I think Senator Roth has moved the bill. Would you like to close?
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you, Mister chair. I just would like to say thank you to my witnesses for being here. Especially to the mother who shared her lived experience. Thank you for the discussion. This is not the last time you'll see me talking about this issue.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
It is big and needs to be addressed to ensure that all women, all birthing people, when they have a pregnancy, that there is a successful outcome for them and their baby. And with that, I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. It's been moved by Senator Roth. Madam Secretary, please call a roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Is this file item number four AB 20319? The motion is to pass descendant appropriations. [Roll Call] Five to one.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
5-1. We'll put that on call. All right. File number five, AB 3138.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Thank you.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Chair. Senators, I want to start by thanking the chair and the Committee staff for working diligently with my office on amends. Although we are continuing those negotiations, we will take the Committee amends, which includes a two year delay in implementation.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Understanding that the chair is open to continue our discussion on the appropriate amends as as well as recognizing there is not a desire to restrict current protections under law for fleet operators, commercial cars or cars with occupational licenses.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
I'm pleased to present AB 3138, which will allow modification of the existing alternative digital license plate program to allow drivers the option to include vehicle location technology, more commonly known as GPS.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
With the amendments, this Bill will also subject the digital plates to approval by both the DMV and CHP, and will require DMV to conduct analysis of banner messages displayed on license plate. This builds upon a successful pilot program launched over a decade ago.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
In 2013, a 2019 report by DMV assessing the Alternative Device pilot program, which notably allowed for GPS and banner messages, it found that no significant law enforcement, DMV or customer concerns. If this Bill becomes law, all drivers will still be able to receive the metal license plates that they are accustomed to seeing.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
This Bill does not change that, but it gives drivers a choice whether they would like alternative device that has been approved by the DMV and CHP, an option that has existed for years under the pilot program.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
This Bill also puts in place privacy standards for GPS plates that far exceed protections and current law for other comparable GPS equipped devices such as the cars themselves, apps used inside the cars, our cell phones and countless other legal products available to consumers at much cheaper prices.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
AB 3138 requires the following protections for GPS enabled plates sold in California. The GPS must be capable of being permanently disabled by means of a non reversible method that ceases all functionality and tracking information capabilities.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
The GPS shall be capable of being manually disabled and enabled by a driver of the vehicle while that vehicle while that driver is inside the vehicle. The method of manually disabling and enabling this GPS shall be permanently located and easy to disable and enable without requiring access to a remote online application.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
The method of manually disabling and enabling the GPS shall not require a password or any login information. And finally, once the vehicle location technology is manually disabled from inside the cardinal, the only method of re-enabling the technology shall be manual from inside the car.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
The registered owner of the license plate, the manufacturer, the DMV or any other entity shall not have the capability to reengage the GPS through any remote means. With me today is to present and support I have Esteban Nunez on behalf of Reviver
- Esteban Nunez
Person
Good afternoon Chair and Members of the Committee. My name is Esteban Nunez. I'm here on behalf of Reviver. As the author stated, we will be accepting the Committee's amendments and Reviver remains committed to working with staff and Members to get this Bill in a comfortable place for everybody.
- Esteban Nunez
Person
AB 3138 really builds off the work that the Legislature has previously voted on, even starting with SB 806 in 2013. This Bill clarifies that digital license plates must comply with provisions to ensure the privacy of the consumer is not compromised while continuing to strengthen the benefits provided to businesses.
- Esteban Nunez
Person
To be clear, there are two different types of plates offered by reviver. There is a battery operated plate which does not contain GPS, and there is a wired plate that does have GPS. So customers have to actively opt into having the GPS and the GPS is also an extra cost and a service that's provided by the company.
- Esteban Nunez
Person
So two different opt in opportunities for the customer. All Reviver services are opt in. This Bill does not change that. This Bill will help to maintain customer safety and privacy rights by strengthening the parameters around geolocation technology, which we hope can be applied more broadly later on.
- Esteban Nunez
Person
The language of this Bill clearly states that if the alternative devices fail to meet these requirements, vehicle location technology shall not be permitted in the devices as AB 984, the previous legislation that formalized the pilot program, moved through the legislative process in 2022.
- Esteban Nunez
Person
Amendments were taken as a result of these conversations with opposition to include a kill switch mechanism, the non-reversible mechanism that the author just stated. Digital license plates and geolocation technology has had many benefits to fleet vehicles and small businesses.
- Esteban Nunez
Person
We have had many support letters and testimonials from our users and customers that prove Reviver's modernization and batch registration renewal process promotes accountability and efficiency for their customers and their staff. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you, Mister Nunez. All right, anyone else who is in support of AB 3138, please approach the microphone.
- Anthony Samson
Person
Morning. Anthony Samson on behalf of the California New Car Dealers in support, thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Others in support, please approach. Seeing no one else, let's turn the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 3138, please approach either the table or the microphone. Your choice.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And just to be clear with Assembly Member Wilson, I see Members are looking through their analysis. The amendment that you discussed is not in the analysis. That's a two year delay in implementation, so you need not look through the analysis. You've accepted that amendment, and I understand because I was part of that conversation.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
You proposed other amendments late last night that we haven't had a chance to see or analyze. I haven't rejected them, nor has the Committee rejected them. And you're free to continue to have that conversation and appropriations, but just I wanted to make sure that the record was clear on that score. Thank you. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Is that your understanding also?
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
That is my understanding. Thank you, Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Let's now turn to the opposition.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Becca Kramer Madder, on behalf of ACLU, California Action in respectful opposition, AB 3138 puts domestic violence survivors and LGBTQ teens at risk.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
It allows GPS surveillance trackers and license plates, which can be used by unsupportive parents to see, for example, if their teen has gone to the local LGBTQ center or by abusers to track domestic violence survivors who may still live with them. AB 3138 undermines Californias status as a refuge for people seeking abortions.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
A passenger in a Lyft car or a friends vehicle who gets picked up at the airport and taken directly to Planned Parenthood may not know that the car they're in has a tracker that could provide evidence against them.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
In a case about traveling here for an abortion against their state's anti-reproductive justice laws, AB 3138 provides ICE the ability to locate undocumented Californians through GPS surveillance technology. This is why many LGBTQI reproductive justice and domestic violence organizations opposed the 2022 Bill that made permanent the digital license plate program.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Until that Bill was amended to prohibit GPS trackers and digital license plates on passenger vehicles, AB 3138 would remove that safety protection, instead inserting back in language like that which these organizations have, if.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
You'd can wrap it up. I assume you're urging a no vote.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
I'm urging a no vote because this language does not take into account power dynamics, which is why the opposition rejected it originally.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Okay.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Tracy Rosenberg with Elk and Privacy. Good morning. In April of 2023, only 90 days after AB 984, the original enabling legislation went into effect. Reviver, the only approved vendor for these projects, suffered a catastrophic security crisis where hackers were able to gain master access to the central database. They could report cars as stolen when they weren't.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Delete license plates, your license plate, for example, and see all the GPS data for the 30,000 pilot vehicles with GPS that were on the road to add a massive collection of highly sensitive geolocation data to a company that has already experienced a severe breach of security is ill advised and not responsible.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
This should not be a buyer beware situation. People are going to DMV and being told this is a safe and secure product when the evidence is that it is not, and that was less than a year ago. Polls show that people are concerned about where the data taken by their cards ends up.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
And the next time a river of Californias geolocation data ends up for sale to the highest bidder, people will not be happy. The 2022 agreement in AB 984 that was crafted in the Senate was balanced. It opened up a new product while avoiding foreseeable harms to Californians in Senate transportation.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
The company itself, the spokesperson said there was no heavy demand for the product for residential vehicles. Therefore, and we just heard about the amendment right now we think the AB 984 agreement in 2022 was the right thing and it should stay in place. Thanks, Marty.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in opposition to AB 3138, please approach.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Hello. Dani Kando-Kaiser. On behalf of the Electronic Frontier Foundation Privacy Rights Clearing House in respectful opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no one else approach the microphone. Let's bring it back to the Committee. Questions by Committee Members. Seeing no questions by Committee Members other than Senator Durrazo. Senator Durazo.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Sorry on such a busy day, but a lot of questions. I'm very mixed about this. The issues of privacy are very serious. We know in our life experiences how important the issues have been brought up about privacy.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
And I'm a little, this is the inclusion now of a private, private sector company and connected with the DMV, a government company. And I'm a little confused as to the access and the connection that the three have with each other. It's not.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
I understand that the examples have been given by the opposition of domestic violence or being undocumented. But putting those aside, it just seems like we've opened up the possibility for anybody who's, even if they're aware that they have the GPS, it just opens up the possibility. Where does that information go? Where is the tracking done? By whom?
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
And is it just in the control of the owner of the vehicle? Or is it again, now that we have private sector involvement? It's getting all confused here.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Thank you. Thank you for your question and your concern. And privacy is of utmost importance to me. And it's something that I express regularly, as I said on the Privacy Committee on the Assembly side. And so this Bill builds upon what is already existing law, where we do have a private sector involvement in our DMV registration process.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And the plates itself are dumb plates, meaning that there is no information contained in the plates, just the number, the license plate number and the vehicle identification number. And so that is all someone can access from the plates. The question is, is the GPS enabled technology, where does that live?
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
That lives within the app and completely owned by the user? It's not owned by the company in any way, shape or form. The hack that was talked about was the white hat. Researchers in 2022 hacked not only Reviver, but a number of car manufacturers as well, to show the vulnerabilities.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And of course, when those vulnerabilities were shown, then those issues were resolved not only with Reviver, but with the car manufacturers as well. And so that was an intentional done by researchers, not hackers, on the dark web. That information that was hacked does not live anywhere on the dark web because it was done intentionally by researchers.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
And so I would say that the information is private. There has been bolstering of technology, and as we know, as technology grows and advances, there are all vulnerabilities that exist, and that's why you continually have improvement on them to be able to shore those up. But once again, the plates themselves are dumb.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
If somebody was to access the plate, they would get someone's license number and they would get someone's vehicle identification number. Things that you can get from a metal plate now and walking up to someone's window and seeing on their window.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Okay, just one more question. Is information on the that's gathered or tracked by the GPS, is that stored by the company? Yes. But does a company have access to store the information that the GPS has recorded or.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
We know our vehicle identification number is listed in several places of car and is actually visible, you know, from, if you walk up to a front window. So those are the two things that someone can access from a plate. And so I just would like to say that those protections exist.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Yes, it's stored, as I understand it, it's stored in the cloud. Right. And so it is, but it is for the use of the individual, not the company.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
But the company is in control of that information.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
The company is in charge of storing that information on behalf of their consumer. They are not in control, meaning they don't get to use it for any other purpose? For any purpose. They only are, and this is through DMV regs. It is owned by the user, and so it is stored on the company's server slash cloud.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
But it is not for use by the company in any way, shape, or form. Okay.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Stern, move the Bill. All right, Senator Laird,
- John Laird
Legislator
Just quickly, I think there's still concerns, and I was thinking that the amendment might be to start to address what some of those concerns are, or guardrails about privacy to the extent they don't already exist. And it looks like the amendment is to delay the implementation for two years.
- John Laird
Legislator
So does that mean that if there are still concerns, you intend to work on them in that period?
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
So there are amendments taken in the Assembly house dealing with the guardrails of privacy, and so we added additional amends related to that. There are amends that the company has proposed. They don't have to do those legislatively.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
They can do those with DMV through the approval process, but they can be done legislatively if that's the will of the body.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
The amend that the Chair offered was a two year delay to give an opportunity for outside of the legislative process, given the fact that it was two years fresh or two years fresh from the white hat researchers hack of all vehicles, to be able to then continue strengthen the guardrails around technology outside of the legislative process.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Just the natural occurrence of what businesses do. And that's how I understand the two year implementation, the delay of the two year implementation of work. It was at the Chairs.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Yes, you're correct.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Okay.
- John Laird
Legislator
Yes. So that's how that worked. It was nodding for initially, for those of you at home. Okay.
- John Laird
Legislator
Okay. I mean, because I was queasy about this and share some of the concerns and don't know, and I'm a layperson, but when it's like, oh, the company is just responsible for storing it, they still have access to it.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
They do have access to it, but they are not. That is wholly owned by the user, and so it.
- John Laird
Legislator
Well, we've seen various hacks of information wholly owned by the user.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Right, and they were in 2022. The white hat searchers saw that there was vulnerability in information that is stored, which is. Which led to the update of not only these policies, but related to the vehicle manufacturers. Right. As it relates to their GPS technology.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
But I think that, you know, and I understand the concern because this came up last session when I was working on this Bill of our DV community and LGBTQ community. I'm sensitive to both those communities for various reasons, would not want someone to feel tracked.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
I have fought to make California a refuge to continue to build on what others have done before me. And so there is no way, shape, or form that I would not want California to be a refuge, but to say that GPS Technology doesn't exist in a tile, in an Apple pod or not Apple pod. Apple airtag. Right.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
We track our suitcases now, right? Because we have that technology. There are cheaper ways to track a vehicle, and we've done everything more than what is for other GPS enabled vehicles related to this.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Meaning when you get into a car that has an alternative device, not just Reviver, but anywhere else, and there are other applicants are going through this process now to get their device approved, it tells you that you have. That this vehicle is being tracked through this Reviver plate.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Doesn't tell you whether there's a tag in the car or, you know, or other types of GPS enabled. You can disable it as a driver outside of the app, and you can. And it can't be re enabled unless it's manually re-enabled. So there are lots of protections to ensure that vehicles are not tracked.
- John Laird
Legislator
Well, I think the worst thing in politics is semi revisionist history of something going wrong later and everybody saying, I knew it, I knew it, and yet there's just uneasiness about this.
- John Laird
Legislator
I will vote to move it, but it just seems that there needs to be vigilance during that period of time to see if there's things that we have not contemplated about this that need to be addressed.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Absolutely. And that can happen at the Department level.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Laird, Senator Durazo.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Just a quick. I'm very still unconvinced of all the issues I will support just today, but I need to spend more time with you because I'm very uncomfortable.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay. Thank you. All right, Senator Stern has moved the Bill. Would you like to close?
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Okay. Thank you. Thank you for the robust discussion on this. And I understand, you know, that it always can be queasy when we're considering technology because it moves much faster than the law can keep up. Just noting that the Bill does include that the language, that the data cannot be shared, and that is a protection within the law.
- Lori Wilson
Legislator
Also noting that I appreciate the chair willingness, as well as Committee staff who've worked diligently on this, to come up with the amends that we were able to get already in print, plus the additional and the continued discussion with that, I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much. Moved by Senator Stern. Madam Chief Counsel, please call the roll.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
7-0
- Committee Secretary
Person
Roll Call
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Put that on call. All right. Assemblymember Ta, file item number 11 AB 2460.
- Tri Ta
Legislator
Good morning, Chair and Members of the Committee. AB 2460 is a cleanup Bill to my AB 1450 A passed by this Committee last year and signed by the Governor. This Bill adds minor identification language requests by the Department of Real Estate, and we agree with the Governor's office to clean up this year.
- Tri Ta
Legislator
This Bill also clarifies that the Association membership may reconvene an election meeting using the reduced quorum. It is not up to the board. This is ridiculous as I have learned that several SOA board have refused to recognize the new lower quorum threshold for fear of being unseated when the votes are tallied.
- Tri Ta
Legislator
We need to ensure that in integrity of the voting process is in the hands of the Association membership to guarantee the cast votes are counted. Today I have Lulu Brown with Community Association Institute to testify in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much, Mr. Brown.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
Char and Members of the Committee, Louis Brown here today on behalf of the community Association's Institute, California Legislative Action Committee. We brought this Bill forward at the request of the Governor's office from AB 1458 last year to provide a clarification on a reconvened meeting rather than a subsequent meeting.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
In doing so, we also then noticed that the definitions of reduced quorum were different in the Bill. So we've cleaned that up. You will hear from the opposition requesting that we actually address the issue of individual notice on this Bill.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
That was an issue that we debated last year in this Committee on AB 1458, and this Committee voted unanimously to keep the Bill at general notice. And so we've not addressed that issue, primarily because the main reason we're back here today is because the request of the Governor. We ask for an aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much Mister Brown.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Others in support of AB 2460 please approach the microphone. Seeing no one approaching, let's turn the opposition if you're opposed AB 2460 please come forward. Here we go. Okay, sir.
- Tom Sur
Person
Thank you Mr. Chair and Members of the Committee, my name is Tom Sur, I'm on the Legislative Committee of the Center for California Homeowner Association Law, and we continue to advocate for the amendments that we have been offering throughout this process.
- Tom Sur
Person
Because what's happening with this Bill is it's clarifying some wording in the underlying Bill that we oppose it passed. We accept the current law and appear today to oppose unless amended. Because the posture, in this posture. Because this new procedure for lowering a quorum needs further improvements to protect the rights and interests of individual homeowners, which is our constituency.
- Tom Sur
Person
We've offered amendments that first of all provide expanded notices, Mr. Brown has indicated, of the reconvened meeting as a matter of due process, that is, notice. And because such expanded notice will actually improve voter participation.
- Tom Sur
Person
Voters can't vote if they don't know an election's being extended. Secondly, the current law and this Bill leave unanswered a critical question of what happens to ballots if a quorum is not met. These ballots should remain unopened and uncounted, and should be safeguarded by the inspector of elections until a quorum has been met.
- Tom Sur
Person
This avoids the possibility of a partial count and leaked results and so forth, which would subject an election to a chaotic situation. And finally, the current law does not indicate how many times the meaning to count ballots may be reconvened. So the new language in the Bill that the authors presented doesn't call a second or third meeting.
- Tom Sur
Person
It continues, in theory, the same meaning by reconvening. But what the Bill does not say is how many times this reconvening can occur. We recommend that it be limited and with those offered amendments that we still continue to hope will be accepted. We do ask for your no vote unless there is acceptance of the amendment. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. All right, others in opposition to AB 2460, seeing no one approaching the microphone. Let's bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members, seeing none. Is there a motion? Senator Stern has moved the Bill. All right. Senator Ta would you like to close?
- Tri Ta
Legislator
I really want to thank the Committee staff for working with our office. And I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you very much. All right, Madam Secretary, it's been moved by Senator Stern. Please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 11, AB 2460. The motion is due pass. [Roll Call]
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We'll put that on call. Thank you very much. All right, next person present in order is Assemblymember Jackson. We're gonna jump way, way, way ahead to file number 40. Okay.
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
It worked. Sometimes. All right, thank you very much, Mr. Chair, Committee Members.
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
AB 1818 would establish a two-year pilot program developed and administered by the California Community College Chancellor's office and the California State University Chancellor's office to allow overnight parking on college campuses in order to create and develop best practices on how to do it safely and reasonably if there are students who find themselves to be homeless and have nowhere else to go
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
Consistency and stability is the way to ensure that people are able to be stabilized and then connected to services so they then can make sure that we. All they have to do is concentrate on their studies.
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
And so, once again, what's important about this also is that we are careful to provide liability protections to the CSU and community college and defer to the chancellor's offices of each institution to be collaborative in their creation of the pilot program. Again, this is the last resort. This is not to supplement actually more, more successful strategies.
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
But again, we have to make sure that these students are safe, and they do not have to take additional risks in their higher education pursuits. I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you. Assembly Member Jackson, let me ask, are you going to accept the amendments as proposed in the analysis?
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
I am accepting the amendments, yes.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, others in support of AB 1818, please come forward.
- Kimberly Lewis
Person
Kim Lewis, with that California Coalition for Youth, I respectfully ask for support vote for our students experiencing homelessness.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Anyone else in support? Let's turn to the opposition now. AB number 40. File item number 40, AB 1818. If you're opposed, please come forward. Seeing no one coming forward, let's bring it back to Committee. Senator Laird.
- John Laird
Legislator
I move the bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Senator Laird has moved the bill. Other questions or comments? Seeing none. All right. Assembly Member Jackson, would you like to close?
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Madam Secretary, please call the roll. Oh, I'm sorry. We. We went too fast. Are you here to testify on AB 1818? Okay, you gotta approach the microphone and tell us that.
- David Ramirez
Person
David Ramirez with the University of California Student Association in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you.
- Celene Aridin
Person
Celene Aridin, President of the University of California Student Association. Represents 230,000 plus undergrad students in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Valeria Cantor-Mendez
Person
Valeria Cantor-Menez, Vice Chair of the UC Student Association and recent graduate of UC Davis.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. in support. Yes, thank you.
- Caroline Nguyen
Person
Caroline Nguyen, policy Director of the UC Student Association. And we are in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you. Now let me turn again to the opposition. If the opposition didn't have a chance to come in. Going once. Going twice. All right. Seeing no opposition, Senator Stern, I believe has moved the bill. Oh, I'm sorry, Senator Laird. You guys look alike. Very difficult to tell you, apart. So. All right. Oh, opposition. Okay.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Are you opposed? All right, come on up to the microphone. The floor is yours.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
Oh, thank you. Good morning, Doctor Jamillah Moore, Vice President of Student Affairs. Excuse me, I was running, and enrollment management at San Francisco State University. I'm here to speak in respectful opposition to AB 1818. I'm sure everyone's familiar with the bill. We're in opposition as the state's extensive investments in evidence-based programs have shown substantial results.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
For instance, the CSU supported 14,000 students through various housing assistance programs in 22-23, with an additional 7,600 students receiving emergency funding. When we allocate any campus space for programs for unhoused individuals, we must create an active safe zone during its use. This necessitates additional resources and security.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
Such an approach is at odds with our housing programs, which aim to provide students with stable and safe accommodations behind secure doors in our residential communities or within our community partnerships with local hotels. We believe that our current housing programs and emergency services will continue to have a growing impact with legislative support.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
Permitting students to sleep in their cars as proposed in AB 1818, would undermine these programs and would further convey a negative message about the dignity and worth of our students. If enacted, we believe that it will face.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
Administrators and campuses will face the challenging decision of diverting funds and resources from effective existing programs that uphold student dignity to costly programs that pose significant liability for the university.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
For example, this summer, we are in the middle of reapplying for a rapid rehousing program grant within the CSU which provides funding that directly supports housing stability programs and sources within AB 18 sources.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
If AB 1818 passes along with navigating a decrease in funding for our existing programs, we will be required to redirect funds to implement this program. Doing so would compromise the integrity of our existing programs and our ability to support the number of students housing stability.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. You're opposed on behalf of the California State University or on behalf of whom?
- Jamillah Moore
Person
On behalf of the California State University.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay, we're opposed. Thank you very much. All right, let me go back to opposition. If you're opposed to AB 1818, please approach the microphone. Seeing no one else approaching the microphone, I'm sorry.
- Richard Roth
Person
Able to ask questions. I don't want the witness to go away.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Sure. If you'd remain. Okay. Yes, here would be good. But right here. Right in the room. Right here. We don't want you to run again. All right. All right. Let's bring it back to Committee. Okay, go ahead. Yes.
- Kasha B Hunt
Person
Committee. So, Citrus College. I'm Kasha Hunt with Nossaman for Citrus College as well as North Orange County Community College as well as Mount SAC are in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Okay, back to Committee. Senator Roth, did you have a question?
- Richard Roth
Person
Well, I have a couple. First to the author. When you talk about a pilot program and the number is five or 20, is that mandatory that 20 be selected, or must the institutions apply to participate in the pilot program?
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
Yes, it is mandatory that 20 be selected, but it's up to the chancellor's office to determine which of those 20 there will be.
- Richard Roth
Person
What if the chancellor determines that there are not 20 institutions in the system, for example, in the community college system, that have appropriate facilities to allow this sort of program to succeed?
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
Well, that's why it's a pilot program, because the reason why we chose so many, because we know different campuses have different configurations. So, what best practices can be established no matter what configuration it is? Right? So, for instance, what happens when the most safe parking lot is in one place, but the nearest restroom is across campus?
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
What practices and protocols need to be put in place to do that? Right? And so that's why this is a study, to determine that different, depending on the different variations of the campus that best practices can be established and actually creating, doing this actually is an established best practice for homeless. We're just trying to do it now on college campuses.
- Richard Roth
Person
I'm supportive, but I think moving forward, you may want to consider modifying the language slightly to direct the state chancellor, in the case of the community college system, for example, to select up to 20, which would allow the chancellor the flexibility to determine that there may only be 17 or 16 campuses that are properly equipped to safely and effectively implement the program.
- Richard Roth
Person
Just a suggestion. Now to the opposition. So, given all the efforts that you've made, and my colleagues who've chaired Budget Sub. One have made over the past years, to try to bed down, so to speak, student housing on campuses and provide alternatives if brick and mortar doesn't exist.
- Richard Roth
Person
Can you give me an idea of how many unhoused students exist, for example, in the CSU system or on your campus, or both?
- Jamillah Moore
Person
Well, it vary. It varies from semester to semester because it is a on. We have basic needs offices, and so we can have 100 students one semester. We can have 125 the next semester. We can have 230 in one year.
- Richard Roth
Person
These are unhoused students. Despite our best efforts.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
Despite our best efforts, these are students who have come in asking for assistance with housing through our basic needs office. Because we also have housing coordinators, we have existing programs that are working with these students who have identified themselves in need of housing. And so, it does vary.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
So, for example, we support it as a system in the CSU, 14,000 students through various housing assisting programs in 22-23 with about an additional 7,600 students receiving emergency housing.
- Richard Roth
Person
But my question goes to this. Despite our best efforts, how many students remain unhoused? Due to the fact that we don't have brick-and-mortar housing and we don't have hotel vouchers. On your campus, for example, are there any?
- Jamillah Moore
Person
Well, at San Francisco State, those students who have come forward, we helped 5,800 students in 22-23, and in 23-24 we helped 173 students who identified as in need of emergency housing.
- Richard Roth
Person
Do we know whether there are students who remain unhoused at your particular CSU? Your CSU? Right?
- Jamillah Moore
Person
There could be, but unless the student self-identifies, we don't know. The student has to come forward. Our process currently, Senator, is that students will identify that they need housing.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
We will either work through our rapid rehousing program and our basic needs office to assist them, either with on campus housing or finding a hotel voucher to assist them if there's not space on campus. We currently, in San Francisco State, have space on campus.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
So, we've been able to house students who are in between or in an emergency situation through our residential housing program.
- Richard Roth
Person
Do you know whether or not, there are several campuses in the CSU system, do you know whether the system as a whole has an unmet need for housing? In other words, are there unhoused students semester to semester to semester because there are not enough rooms and not enough hotel vouchers?
- Jamillah Moore
Person
Well, working through our rapid rehousing program, I'm sure there could be at every campus, some. But once again, the student has to identify. Self-identify. If they don't self-identify, we're not certain.
- Jamillah Moore
Person
But these students that have come forward, to my knowledge, we've been able to assist students that have come forward and identified they need some assistance with housing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All righty. Any further questions or comments, Senator Roth? No. All right, Senator Stern.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Chair. I'm struggling, maybe not so much with the heart of the bill, but around it, the context of the bill.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I'm trying to look past one of your lead witnesses, the Vice Chair at UCSA, who just walked up here with a river to the sea shirt, telling me that my folks should be erased from the entire map. So, I'm wondering what the agenda is for UCSA and what a priority is.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
That's a very hard thing to get past. Let me put that one aside, as I'm forced to do all the time. I'm also struggling with the fact that the Assembly decided not to include higher education in the education bond to actually get dollars for housing students, refuse to even add student housing to the education bond.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So, it seems like we're putting a lot of demands on our higher education system without actually putting the dollars there to back up what we endeavor for. I do not want to see students on the street. We have students starving. It's a serious issue, but I want a serious solution.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So, I know the Committee amendments assert that the pilot program would be subject to appropriation. I guess I would concur with my colleague's recommendation there be some flexibility here. But I also. Yeah, I'm struggling with how to, how to vote, given all that extra context here. Hope you can appreciate my comments.
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
Yeah, I appreciate that.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator. Senator Roth.
- Richard Roth
Person
Just a quick follow up, which was my point to the author. I think as you move.
- Richard Roth
Person
If this bill moves out of the Committee, as you move forward to appropriations, I think you should take another look at the architecture of the bill and give the state chancellor the ability to assess, and, of course, the chancellor at the CSU as well, the system, the ability to assess what the need is at various campuses.
- Richard Roth
Person
And if there is a need, if there is an unmet need for housing, and we have unhoused students, despite our best efforts to decide to participate in this pilot program and select campuses to do this, as opposed to a blanket 20 or a blanket five, which puts a burden on schools that may already have solved the problem because we don't have a study to look at that says. Just a suggestion.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you for tolerating two bites at the apple, Mister Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Roth. Other questions or comments? Is there a motion? Oh, I'm sorry. Senator Laird has moved the bill. All right. Would you like to close, Assembly Member Jackson? Right.
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
I appreciate the comments and suggestions of my colleagues here on the Committee. I would just say a few things. Number one, this is another way to identify those students, because they will have to actually apply for a special permit to do it.
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
And that's the perfect opportunity for the institution to then say, well, we actually have these additional services for you, and so therefore, the parking lot is no longer something you need to do. Right?
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
Again, this is meant to be a last resort, and the reason why we put upon appropriation is to ensure that the money is not being diverted from more effective programs. Right? But this is, again, an opportunity to make sure that there's a backstop. And so, I respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Corey Jackson
Legislator
We're trying to be as thoughtful as possible, but again, this is actually a best practice. It's just a best practice that nobody wants to see at some point, but unfortunately, sometimes it might be necessary.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you very much. All right. Madam Secretary, there's been a motion by Senator Laird. Please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 40, AB 1818. The motion is do pass is amended to Senate Appropriations. [Roll call] Four to one.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Four to one. We'll put that on call. All right, next I see Assembly Member Quirk-Silva. That would be file item number 15. If you're in the hallway on filing item number 15, AB 2023, please come into the committee hearing room. All right. Assembly Member Quirk-Silva, the floor is yours.
- Sharon Quirk-Silva
Legislator
Thank you, Mr. Chair and Members. Today, I present Assembly Bill 2023, which creates parity in the housing element review process. The housing element must be timely and reflect the community's plan to address their share of the region's housing needs. Once the Department of Housing agrees that a local housing element complies with the law, the housing element has a rebuttable presumption of validity.
- Sharon Quirk-Silva
Legislator
This means that HCD's findings of compliance receives deference in court, and any party challenging the element has a higher bar to meet to prove that HCD was incorrect. However, there is no equivalent provision if a city or county does not meet the requirements set by HCD or does not take any action regarding its adopted housing element. This loophole allows certain cities to disregard HCD's expert findings and bypass recommendations aimed at strengthening their housing elements to achieve compliance.
- Sharon Quirk-Silva
Legislator
This oversight undermines the state's efforts to ensure that all jurisdictions adopt and enforce robust, legally compliant housing elements. While the majority of California jurisdictions do adopt housing elements that HCD deems compliant, there are exceptions. This oversight undermines the state's effort to ensure that all jurisdictions adopt and enforce robust, legally compliant housing elements.
- Sharon Quirk-Silva
Legislator
I believe we all have a part in addressing the state's housing crisis. With me today to provide testimony and support and to answer any question is Anya Lawler, the Legislative Advocate with the Public Interest Law Project, and Rafa Sonnenfeld, Policy Director with YIMBY Action.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Great. You have two minutes.
- Anya Lawler
Person
I will not take two minutes. Good morning, Mr. Chair and Members. Anya Lawler, again, on behalf of the Public Interest Law Project. PILP is a nonprofit legal services organization that does housing element advocacy statewide. We don't think it makes a lot of sense that HCD's findings receive more deference in court if they find the housing element to be in compliance than out of compliance.
- Anya Lawler
Person
We think this bill is just common sense and creates parity so that the expert agency's findings get deference in court regardless of whether they find a jurisdiction in or out of compliance with the law. We think this will reduce litigation, encourage local governments to simply get their housing elements done, and we respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Sir, whenever you're ready.
- Rafa Sonnenfeld
Person
Good morning. Rafa Sonnenfeld representing co-sponsors YIMBY Law, the legal arm of the nationwide pro-housing movement and an affiliate of YIMBY Action. This is a good governance bill that helps to ensure HCD's findings of housing element compliance are given deference in court regardless of what those findings are. I'm available to answer any questions. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, sir. Anyone in the room in support? This is now appropriate for me too testimony. Name, organization if you have one, and your position on the bill.
- Catherine Charles
Person
Good morning. Catherine Charles on behalf of the Housing California in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. No one else? Okay, now we will move to opponents. Do we have any primary opposition advocates? We do. Come have a seat at the table. And you've got two minutes. Whenever you're ready.
- Brady Guertin
Person
Perfect. Good morning, Chair and Members. Brady Guertin on behalf of the League of California Cities in a respectful opposed unless amended position. Our concerns are twofold. The main one being giving HCD more power for housing elements. Understanding that there's different certifications and standards that we need to reach, but are concerned about that.
- Brady Guertin
Person
And the language is going to be very for local cities on the ground. But I think, more importantly, our concern is with the section on the bill that would require local governments, when they're doing their housing element amendments, to do a full 120 days to look back at those amendments.
- Brady Guertin
Person
Despite all the public comment early in the process, we're very concerned that this is going to put cities on the defense, and we're going to continue to struggle with getting our housing elements in compliance without specific findings, as well as going through the public transparency process again and again.
- Brady Guertin
Person
We're all for public transparency, but believe that we do our due diligence early and are concerned that this will further delay local governments from being able to get a certified housing element and are very concerned about the language in the bill. So we've offered those amendments to the author's office and staff and look forward to those continued conversations, but in respectful opposition today. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Anyone in the room in opposition, come up here and provide me too testimony.
- Ethan Nagler
Person
Ethan Nagler on behalf of the City of Eastvale in respectful opposition, and on behalf of the City of Rancho Cucamonga, respectfully opposed unless amended.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Seriously? That's it? Okay. Very good. We'll bring it back to the committee. Do we have more? Wait, there's more.
- Andrew Dawson
Person
Sorry, I was running here. This is Andrew Dawson, the California Housing Partnership, and actually in support, but we just missed it.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay. Thanks for coming and sharing. All right, pull it back to the committee. Questions, comments, concerns? Senator Stern?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Yeah, thank you. Thoughts on, just want to get your response to opposition. Willingness, openness on the amendments from League of Cities?
- Sharon Quirk-Silva
Legislator
We have listened to the opposition as we've made our way. We're always willing to listen more, but this is really for the narrow group of cities that are using stall and delay tactics. And we have seen this. We know that this is not the majority of cities. We know that there are very good actors in housing that want to do all they can to address the housing crisis. But we do have some cities that have used every tactic to not having a compliant housing element. If you want to add any?
- Anya Lawler
Person
Sure. Unfortunately, the amendments that the league has offered, we think take the bill in the opposite direction. But if we can come to some agreement on alternate language that would address their concerns that is different than what they've offered, we're obviously willing to have those conversations. But we really think that the bill is fairly common sense and that...
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So kind of no is the answer. From the League, just are there amended amendments that you all have been thinking about? Because my concern is just giving such weight without this rebuttable presumption piece, that sort of HCD's word is infallible and will never be challenged.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Even when complicated issues around surveying land, new developments, specifically in fire zones where, you know, I have extra sensitivity and, you know, grading and various sort of access issues and things like that are tough to take into account up here in Sacramento. But have you guys given any thought as a reasonable counting here just to, so I know what's coming on the floor.
- Brady Guertin
Person
Yeah. So the ones that we looked at, looking at the, we're still going to give the rebuttal presumption. We are just going to say that their findings are valid, meaning that what they say either way goes. That was the language that we had offered. That was from our legal counsel.
- Brady Guertin
Person
The back half, which I think is the bigger concern, is the timelines for the amendments process for the housing elements. That's going to be concerning for our cities to listen to HCD, get that feedback and do what's needed to meet and get a certified housing element. That's where our concern is. And we don't feel like that.
- Brady Guertin
Person
If the goal is for each CD to have a stronger challenge in court, we're willing to give on that. But to make it more clear about what that looks like, but more so, look at the timelines aspect and see if we can strike that language. I believe this is section four, but I can't remember.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I guess where this goes is we're probably going to end up in builder's remedy land in a lot of these cases, and I still know that that's an unresolved issue. So that's my challenge on the bill, is how to land, not knowing where that's going to land. So anyhow, thank you for letting me weigh in here.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Any... Nothing else. Somebody like to make a motion? Okay, moved by Senator Durazo. Secretary... I guess I should let you close, huh? We have 70 bills today, so, you know.
- Sharon Quirk-Silva
Legislator
Respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 15, AB 2023. The motion is do pass the Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call] Three to two.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All right, three to two. We'll leave it open for Members to add on.
- Sharon Quirk-Silva
Legislator
Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Now, I would like to bring up Assembly Member Pacheco. But I've been told I have to go in file order. So I guess it's Mr. Ting, who's not going to be a gentleman and go ahead and take it. Okay, let's go. So we have just one bill.
- Philip Ting
Person
I do have one bill, but I have two bills I'm presenting for Speaker Emeritus Rendon.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay, well, we'll do your Bill. Prefer to do your Bill first?
- Philip Ting
Person
Yes, please.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay. So that's file item 10 AB 1814?
- Philip Ting
Person
Yes.
- Scott Wilk
Person
And with that, please proceed.
- Philip Ting
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So AB 1814 provides a first step in protecting people's privacy from facial recognition. It prevents law enforcement from being able to arrest, search, or get a warrant approved by a judge with the sole basis for that action, facial recognition match, with a civil penalty of up to $25,000 for that violation.
- Philip Ting
Person
This would mean that law enforcement would have to provide additional evidence in order to do any of those actions outside of facial recognition match. As many of you know, I did a Bill in 2019 having a three-year moratorium on facial recognition and the use of body cameras. That moratorium expired as of January 1, 2023.
- Philip Ting
Person
Since then, I've been working to try to figure out ways to regulate facial recognition to provide guidelines in its use. Currently, there are no states that have banned facial recognition, only regulated it. This Bill, again, is not preemptive. So my City of San Francisco, which has banned the technology, would not preempted by this Bill.
- Philip Ting
Person
Should cities, other cities want to take greater action on facial recognition, they would have the ability to do so. This does not preempt them in the future as well. With that, I have Mister Feldman as my witness.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
Chair and Members, Jonathan Feldman with the California Police Chiefs Association in support of the Bill.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
I want to thank the author for all the years that we've been working on this, which started with us in opposition of each other on the moratorium, but have since worked together running a Bill last year to try and set comprehensive standards. Unfortunately, that Bill didn't make it through.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
And so this year, taking, as the author had mentioned, a meaningful first step, is that what I think is the most important restriction on the sole use of facial recognition for arrest, apprehension, or warrant for affidavit. The technology itself is incredibly important and an effective tool for law enforcement.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
It's been proven across the country to help and assist in locating violent criminals, those who have committed sexual assault crimes. It was used in Boston during the marathon bombing to locate those suspects. It is an important tool, but at the same time, law enforcement understands that we do have to regulate it and protect from abuses.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
This Bill takes that first important step. As we had mentioned, we are in support of the measure and look forward to ensuring that the community understands that there are safeguards, there are protections in place, but law enforcement can use the tool in a meaningful way to protect their communities. So we ask for your aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you for that. Do we have any two testimony and support? Please approach the mic, name, organization if you have one, position on the Bill.
- Brady Grant
Person
Good morning again, Chair and Members Brady Grant, on behalf of the League of California Cities in support. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Michelle Rubalcava
Person
Michelle Rubalcava with Nielsen Merksamer, on behalf of the City of Visalia support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. That's it. Okay. Do we have primary witnesses in opposition?
- Margaret Gladstein
Person
No, sorry. Margaret Gladstein, Security Industry Association in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Do we have any witnesses in opposition? Primary witnesses. Come on up.
- Scott Wilk
Person
You each get two minutes and whenever you're ready, go ahead and proceed. Could you speak into the mic if you don't mind.
- Mito Vilas
Person
Mito Vilas on behalf of the Translatina Coalition in opposition. Today I want to address an urgent issue that touches upon privacy, civil rights and the equitable treatment of all individuals. Facial recognition technology. Its deployment by law enforcement carries significant, often harmful consequences, particularly for the transgender community and communities of color.
- Mito Vilas
Person
AB 1814 will do nothing to protect against these harms. The transgender community faces unique challenges with facial recognition. Many transgender individuals experience frequent misidentification due to changes in their appearance over time. This misidentification can lead to distressing encounters and discrimination.
- Mito Vilas
Person
Imagine going through already challenging process of transitioning and then being consistently misrecognized by a system that fails to understand your identity. This not only invades personal privacy, but also invalidates their identity, causing emotional and psychological harm, and can result in outing a transgender person.
- Mito Vilas
Person
Yet, AB 1814 is silent on these issues, communicating to law enforcement that the recognition is used as a sole basis for probable cause, even though that is a continual facial recognition lineup, something that is not allowed currently. AB 1814 will further put a vulnerable risk vulnerable communities that more likely to be in state databases.
- Mito Vilas
Person
We must ask ourselves, do we want to live in a society where our fundamental rights are compromised by flawed technology and where people are put in perpetual virtual lineup simply because they have used government services? The answer is clear. Law enforcement does not need to use facial recognition technology.
- Mito Vilas
Person
There are more effective, less intrusive methods to ensure public safety without sacrificing our civil liberties. AB 1814 takes us to the opposite direction. Instead, let us work together to create a society that values privacy, equality and justice for all. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Two minutes and 3 seconds. That's pretty good. All right, next witness.
- Kellie Walters
Person
Good morning. My name is Kelly Walters. I am an attorney with legal services for prisoners with children and a former criminal defense attorney in Chicago. I'm here today compelled to speak to you about the harmful impacts on our communities and families that they will face if this bill were to be passed.
- Kellie Walters
Person
First, AB 1814 does not adequately address the issues that arise from technological infancy. With the consequences of using non-robust technologies for policing and convictions, it is necessary to outline clear and researched limitations regarding facial recognition technology. AB 1814 fails to provide these reforms.
- Kellie Walters
Person
AB 1814 states that if passed, it would, quote, prohibit a law enforcement agency or peace officer from using a facial recognition technology generated match as the sole basis for probable cause in an arrest or search, end quote.
- Kellie Walters
Person
It also says it would prohibit a judge from granting an application for a warrant based solely on a facial recognition technology match. By suggesting that facial recognition technology is not robust enough to act as probable cause, this bill fails in its pursuit of reform by lacking effective regulations regarding facial recognition technology.
- Kellie Walters
Person
While AB 1814 claims to minimize the possible harmful consequences of facial recognition technology used in policing, it unfortunately does not prevent false matches and only incentivizes law enforcement to confirm these wrongful beliefs in other parts of an investigation, further delegitimizing and contaminating the entire investigative process.
- Kellie Walters
Person
In the cases of wrongful facial recognition technology, matches that we know of, police fell into the. Excuse me.
- Kellie Walters
Person
Matches that we know of, police fell into the trap of automation bias, a process wherein police are subconsciously encouraged to search for evidence that supplements a facial recognition technology match and to ignore exonerating evidence, especially when given the type of warning that 1814 would require.
- Kellie Walters
Person
For example, when given a photo lineup of a supposed facial recognition technology match, police and eyewitnesses will often assume that the suspect must be present even though the overtly flawed technology frequently does not provide a correct.
- Scott Wilk
Person
The words of our chair could draw to a conclusion.
- Kellie Walters
Person
I absolutely can.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Kellie Walters
Person
The reality of 1814 does not introduce any substantial reform. Instead of a single vague prohibition, one which does little to regulate facial recognition technology usage, the bill should outline stringent requirements for law enforcement and governmental agencies regarding the use of this technology. This includes mandates on how this data is utilized.
- Scott Wilk
Person
You are against the Bill. Okay, thank you. That was a good try.
- Kellie Walters
Person
You can tell, huh?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay. Others in opposition, please come forward. Name, organization if you have one, position on the bill.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Becca Cramer Mowder here as a technical witness for the opposition and also here representing ACLU California Action, National Center for Lesbian Rights, California Latinas for Reproductive Justice, Access Reproductive Justice Gender Justice LA, If/When/How: Lawyering for Reproductive Justice, Immigrant Defense Advocates, National Immigration Law Center, Orange County Equality Coalition, TEACH Training in Early Abortion for Comprehensive Health Care, Youth Justice Coalition, Western Center on Law and Poverty and Team Justice San Diego in opposition.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Welcome.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Tracy Rosenberg from Oakland Privacy in opposition, and on behalf of as well, San Francisco Black and Jewish Unity Coalition, Council on American Islamic Relations California, All Family Legal, Alliance San Diego, Asian Law Alliance, Universidad Popular, Healthcare for Us, indivisible California State Strong, Advocacy for Principled Action in Government, California Alliance for Youth and Community Justice, UC Irvine Faculty Association, and the San Diego Faculty Association. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I think you missed one. All right. Next.
- Steve Minerath
Person
Morning, members. Steve Minerath, citizen of Sacramento, urge a no vote. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, sir.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Hello. Dani Kando-Kaiser, expressing opposition on behalf of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, In Co-Justice Surveillance Technology Oversight Project, Tech Equity Action, Fight for the Future, American Atheists, Individual East Bay, Food Empowerment Project, Free Speech Coalition, Organization for Identity and Culture Development, Positive Women's Network USA, as well as the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Chao Jun Liu
Person
Hello. Chao Jun Liu, on behalf of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, also on behalf of the Black Lives Matter California La Defensa, Organizing Rooted in Abolition, Liberation, and Empowerment, Parivar Bay Area, Students Deserve the Sidewalk Project, Santa Monica Democratic Club, Secure Justice, Silicon Valley De-Bug, Cancel the Contract AV, Indivisible Yolo, and Consumer Federation of California. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, sir.
- Omar Altamimi
Person
Omar Altamimi from the Council on American Islamic Relations California, respectfully requesting a no vote. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Leticia Reyes
Person
Good morning. Leticia Reyes, on behalf of California Latinas for reproductive justice in opposition. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. All right, pulling it back to the Committee. Questions, comments, concerns? Senator Durazo.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Just a question for the author. I know your history. I know what you, how you vote on very important privacy issues, civil rights issues, incarcerated people's issues. So, you should be proud of that record.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
On this issue, how do you respond to the question, the issues that have been brought up by the opposition and I guess maybe clarify for me, this is a very limited use. And what circumstances and what are the guardrails and protections people continue to have?
- Philip Ting
Person
I think that's a great question. Let me just start off with the context. So, as of right now, there are no regulations for facial recognition software outside of local cities. My local city, I believe it's Berkeley.
- Philip Ting
Person
I think there's some other cities that have regulation on facial recognition software outside of that, as a state, there is no regulation. So, all the issues that the witnesses were concerned about, they can occur as we speak right now. There are no guardrails.
- Philip Ting
Person
I did a bill last year that would have been probably the most robust guidelines, regulations preventing guardrails on facial recognition software within law enforcement. The same coalition that stands opposed today opposed it equally, as vociferously, and it probably would have been the most stringent regulatory framework in the entire country.
- Philip Ting
Person
The coalition as formed only wants one thing, which is to ban facial recognition software. I supported a ban when one of my colleagues carried the same bill I carried a number of last year. I supported it. So, I don't have any personal issue.
- Philip Ting
Person
What I do believe is that the bill that a ban wouldn't get through the Legislature and signed by the Governor. So, we're left with, should we do nothing, or should we go do something? So, this bill is a first step. So exactly the first witness talked about misidentification. This is exactly what this bill does, right?
- Philip Ting
Person
So, you can't have a warrant, you can't do a search, you can't do an arrest based solely on that facial recognition match. That's what we're trying to stop. We had a lot more in the bill last year that we tried to get through. Again, opposition was just as vociferous against that. This, to me, is the first step.
- Philip Ting
Person
To me, this is something I want to do in my last year because I want to have a first step in really regulating facial recognition. These concerns about the use of facial recognition, let me just reiterate. Facial recognition can be used today, this second. Anybody, any law enforcement agency could go use it right now.
- Philip Ting
Person
They don't need our permission. They don't need our permission or our guidance, anything. They could go do it right now. This is a first step to make sure that the facial recognition match is not the sole basis for warrants, arrests, and searches. So that is a first step. I wish it was more.
- Philip Ting
Person
My last year's bill was much, much more. Unfortunately, opposition was just as opposed to that bill as well.
- Scott Wilk
Person
See that the ACLU wants to weigh in, so we'll give you a minute. Go ahead.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Thank you. I very much appreciate the author's intention with this bill. I think it is worth noting that in every single known case where facial recognition led to a wrongful arrest, police did not rely on it as the sole basis. In Mister William's case, they used a photo six pack lineup.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
In Mister Oliver's case, they used a photo lineup. In Miss Woodruff's case, they also used a photo lineup. In Mister Park's case. In Mister Reid's case, they also, instead of a photo lineup, they did a one-to-one comparison with law enforcement.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
I think it's also worth noting that while the author is correct that there is currently no statewide law on facial recognition, this bill would introduce several harms that do not exist under the status quo. The first is that it would open up state databases to perpetual virtual lineups. Under current law, these databases cannot be used in this way.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
But because of the definition of reference photo database, as a database populated with photographs from databases composed of driver's license and other documents made or issued under the authority of the state, a political subdivision thereof, or any other state or a federal agency, among other problematic databases, it's explicitly opening up state databases for biometric surveillance, which is currently prohibited.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Additionally, if you look at the letter from the defense attorneys, from more than half of the people who have been wrongfully arrested that we are aware of, they argue in their letter that this bill would make it harder for them to challenge facial recognition in court for wrongful arrests.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
It would undermine the ability of other attorneys in California to use the legal theories that these attorneys relied on in their cases, challenging officers' use of investigative techniques tainted by the initial FRT mismatch and officers' failures to disclose the details of their flawed investigations to courts and prosecutors.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
So, in addition to knowing that it's not providing any protection, it's providing two real harms that are not in a current law.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Additionally, by being silent on all the other harms of FRT in the way that it's misused, AB 1814 implies that the Legislature believes using FRT as the sole basis for probable cause is the only risk of FRT, thereby giving law enforcement an implicit pass at many other problematic ways of using FRT, such as to surveil people entering an abortion or gender-affirming care clinic or protesters to determine someone's sexual orientation, which Stanford research claim is possible with FRT.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
None of these are also addressed by the bill. We recognize the bill is narrower than last year's bill. Last year's bill would have done things like explicitly authorize real-time face surveillance and mass surveillance systems. It was also not as robust as federally proposed laws around facial recognition.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Any other questions? Oh, I'm sorry, Senator Laird.
- John Laird
Legislator
I was only in your direct line of sight.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I was looking at Senator Durazo. Sorry.
- John Laird
Legislator
Good move.
- Scott Wilk
Person
She's prettier.
- John Laird
Legislator
Talking about that could delay the hearing. So, I'm going to a comment and a question. And the comment is, I get the situation we're in, because even though the opposing witness at times was shaking her head to things, you said that except for the cities, there is no regulation that do this. There is no regulation.
- John Laird
Legislator
And this in some ways needs to be measured against doing regulation, against no regulation.
- John Laird
Legislator
And yet, for those of us that are going to vote on this bill, it is an imperfect bill, and there are certain things. For example, and now I read a bunch on this, and there was one place that it said that African American women were misidentified some large percent of the time, 35% of the time.
- Philip Ting
Person
Correct.
- John Laird
Legislator
So, why not take an amendment that says there should be an audit of sort of the ethnicity of people identified and other things to determine if there's a trend here that needs to be addressed?
- Philip Ting
Person
Yeah, opposition has never presented amendments that would remove their opposition.
- John Laird
Legislator
But why not you affirmatively do it regardless of whether they remove the opposition? Because it's an.
- Philip Ting
Person
Well, that's what we tried to do with last bill.
- John Laird
Legislator
Okay. Well, it's still, I believe.
- Philip Ting
Person
Yeah, this is a, this is, you know, four years of work on this issue.
- John Laird
Legislator
No, I get it. And you've been in the trenches and what somebody did three years ago influences you. But I'm looking at this now as a standalone bill and feeling like that's something that needs to be addressed. The other thing is, is why not?
- John Laird
Legislator
There were a couple of instances, there was one of a couple where somebody suddenly became a suspect for something that they didn't feel like they were even involved in. They couldn't figure out why. They went and they hired an attorney.
- John Laird
Legislator
Why not have a notification that if this technology is being used to lead to somebody being a suspect, that they are notified of that so that they understand why if they're not in a case where they might have done something, why suddenly they aren't being named a suspect?
- Philip Ting
Person
I mean, again, many of these issues we dealt with in last year's bill, that opposition was equally opposed to. This is what we felt like we could get through the Legislature this year. So, it's a first step. If you would like to take this on next year, I would be fully in support of you.
- John Laird
Legislator
Not that much alcohol in the universe.
- Philip Ting
Person
Yes, but I'm just saying if you. I would happily give you all my papers on this.
- John Laird
Legislator
In front of a representative of the Police Chiefs But it doesn't mean that it still doesn't need to get addressed.
- Philip Ting
Person
Oh, I agree. I agree. First, I've yet to author or complete a perfect bill. I'm still trying, but I don't know if I'll do it this year. Second, again, like I said, this is a first step.
- Philip Ting
Person
And right now, many of the things the first witness talked about will hopefully be helped by making sure that facial recognition is not a first match. The witness from the ACLU, many, I believe, my understanding is all the cases that she cited, none of them were in California. Also, there's nothing regarding state databases in this bill.
- Philip Ting
Person
Again, I know that there is. You know, regarding the other lineups, I believe that was a bill that was, that was used last year to address that issue around lineups. So again, this bill does not solve all the problems within public safety.
- John Laird
Legislator
I guess, since it's where it is and this appears to be where it's going to be, and we will have to vote on it on this. Is your statement that it's a first step acknowledge that there's imperfections that need to be addressed if this bill passes and is signed into law?
- Philip Ting
Person
I acknowledge that this bill's a first step, and there are many steps that I hope will follow, and that as all my bills, every bill that I present to the Governor, none of them have been perfect.
- John Laird
Legislator
Move the bill. Thanks, Mister.
- Philip Ting
Person
Sorry. But let me say this. If you have specific amendments you want to propose to me, I am all open. I'm open.
- John Laird
Legislator
Okay. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
The Chair gave me a bill goal to get through while he's gone, and we are definitely not going to hit that goal today. Actually, I've got a couple.
- Scott Wilk
Person
So back in 2019, I'm generally supportive of law enforcement, but in 2019, I supported your delay because, if you recall, SAC Bee did an expose, and I think there was 14 of our colleagues, including Senate Republican Leader Brian Jones, that were identified as a criminal.
- Philip Ting
Person
And me as well. Yeah,
- Scott Wilk
Person
Well, you might be. I don't know. But Brian Jones is definitely not. I'm only kidding. So, has the technology improved since then?
- Philip Ting
Person
My understanding is. I'll let the witness answer that.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
Yeah, I'll just say that the National Institute of Standards and Technology has been. Sorry. The National Institute of Standards and Technology at the federal level has been researching and analyzing facial recognition for decades. Over the last five years, it has advanced significantly as all technology grows exponentially.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
The latest studies that came out using the best algorithms, which is what law enforcement is using, which was actually also in our prior bill to make sure that we're using those higher standards. You don't see the type of biases and outcomes between race, between genders.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
The study that was done years ago was also done at a lower algorithm, not the algorithm that law enforcement uses.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
So, it did, you know, I think, grossly misidentify members of this body and has been, you know, across the board, there have been other studies that haven't been quite comparable to what law enforcement's using now, and the technology that's been using right now.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Then a follow-up question, probably for you. So, when does law enforcement use facial technology in the investigative process?
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
They'll use it to try and narrow down to.
- Scott Wilk
Person
They don't open with that. They use it later.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
They use it in the earlier stages to narrow down to potential suspects, and then it has. It's incumbent upon them to develop specific evidence separate from the facial recognition match to actually develop the necessary components for probable cause for either a search or an arrest.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
I'm going to give you one minute, because I heard you jumping up in your.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
No, I am, and thank you so much. I just want to address the issue of accuracies. Recent testing by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, or NIST, as well as by academic researchers, show that racial and gender disparities in FRT mismatch rates still exist.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Additionally, there's no lab test that reflects how police use FRT in the real world.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Labs do not have access to exact reference photo databases that law enforcement uses, and tests can't account for the low-quality images from surveillance cameras that police run through FRT, let alone the times when police have used DNA generated models of faces to run through FRT.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Tests also can account for automation bias, which causes even experts to think the computer is smarter than them and therefore trust what are clearly mismatches, such as in the case of Mister Oliver, who was arrested after being mismatched to a suspect with no facial or arm tattoos.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Despite Mister Oliver having extensive tattoos, it wasn't caught until it was before the judge. Lab tests can also be misleading because of the very nature of what is being tested. NIST tests for overall positive rates for.
- Scott Wilk
Person
We're at our minute.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Let me just really quickly say that some of these NIST tests show that the disparities are as much as 100 times higher for certain Black women than for White men to this day, including on tests that look like they are scoring 99% on NIST tests. And these are FRT algorithms that law enforcement is using. The algorithms are still inaccurate.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Great. So very robust discussion. We have a motion. You may close.
- Philip Ting
Person
I would just say all those issues that opposition outlined last year were addressed in my last year's bill, which they opposed equally as vociferously. As I mentioned to the other Senators, this is a first step. Right now, you have no regulation.
- Philip Ting
Person
So, if you want to continue all the things, especially around misidentification that people said that they are concerned about, this is a first step. It definitely should not be the last step. But this is the first step that we're presenting you today. And we'll hope that perhaps one of the distinguished Senators will continue this work next year.
- Philip Ting
Person
With that, respectfully ask for aye vote on AB 1814.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you for that. And with that, Secretary called the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 10. AB 1814. The motion is do pass to Senate Appropriations. [Roll call] Six to zero,
- Scott Wilk
Person
Six to zero. And we'll leave that open for members to add on.
- Committee Secretary
Person
He's presenting Assembly Member Rendon's.
- Scott Wilk
Person
And what item is that?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay, up next is file item 13, AB 2696 by Speaker Meredith Rendon. But being presenting today is Assemblyman Ting. So with that, whenever you are ready, you may proceed.
- Philip Ting
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to present AB 2696 on behalf of speaker Meredith Rendon. AB 2696 closes a loophole that allows general contractors to avoid wage law enforcement when they complete projects with their own personnel rather than subcontracting. We have two great witnesses.
- Philip Ting
Person
Danny Curtin, Director, as well as Patty McCarron, Director of Operations from the California Conference of Carpenters.
- Danny Curtin
Person
Thank you very much for presenting the Bill, Assemblyman. Okay, all good. I do want to say this is another work in progress, maybe a little less complex than the last one. And hopefully we'll get the ball rolling back on track, this passed 69 to nothing in the Assembly.
- Danny Curtin
Person
It basically doesn't change the law at all, but allows an existing joint liability and liability for general contractors. It allows our joint labor management programs to be. To have standing in wage law violations.
- Danny Curtin
Person
We spent some time developing joint liability between general contractor and their violations of their subs, but somehow we did not attach our standing for the joint labor management programs on the general contractor if they violate the law with their own workers. Patty McCarron is the Director of operations for our enforcement program in Southern California.
- Danny Curtin
Person
If you have questions. But she'll be happy to answer those. So hopefully we can. Any questions, Patty?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Do we have any. Anybody else here in support to offer me two testimony, or did you want to talk or you just here for technical.
- Patty McCarron
Person
Well, I'm in support of it.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Right.
- Patty McCarron
Person
I'm in support of it.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I'm sorry, I was under. Do you want to testify or thought you were here just for technical. Whatever you want to do. Whatever you want to do. This is democracy. You may do whatever you want.
- Patty McCarron
Person
Okay, thank you. My name is Patty McCarron and I'm the Director of Operations for the Carpenters Contractors Cooperation Committee, a joint labor-management Committee. We have been utilizing AB 1701 and 727 to assist workers who have been victims of wage theft by unscrupulous contractors. It's been working very well.
- Patty McCarron
Person
Our representatives who investigate wage theft have found that ceneral contractors are circumventing the law by self-performing the work. And these projects include affordable housing, mixed-use, among others. In these cases, we have no standing to help these workers recover their monies and their, these low-wage workers recover their wages. And we're asking for a yes vote.
- Patty McCarron
Person
Thank you. And I'm available for questions.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you so much. Have a motion. Anybody else here in support? Anyone here to testify in opposition? You can do it from the mic or you can come and join us up front
- Michelle Rubalcava
Person
Michelle Rubalcava with Nielsen Merksamer on behalf of Associated Builders and Contractors of California in opposition.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay, thank you. Okay. Not coming up here. Okay. With that. We'll pull it back to the Committee. Do we have a motion? Questions, comments, concerns? Seeing none. Let's call the roll. Oh, I'm sorry.
- Philip Ting
Person
Respectfully ask for aye vote. Thank you, Senator.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I'm feeling the stress because I have not hit my goal today.
- Philip Ting
Person
I'm motoring with you. I'm here to help.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Aye.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 13, AB 2696. The motion is due pass to Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call] Five to zero.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Five to zero. We'll hold that open for people to add on now. We're moving to file item 14, AB 2754 again by Speaker Meredith Rendon, being presented by Assemblyman Ting. Whenever you're ready, you may proceed.
- Philip Ting
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. AB 2754 will provide greater employment protection to part to port, excuse me, not parked. Port drayage truck drivers across the state by ensuring companies that contract with them are held liable for any violations of labor law. We're here to have. We have Shane Gusman from the California Teamsters Public Affairs Council in support.
- Shane Gusman
Person
Shane Gusman, on behalf of the California Teamsters Public Affairs Council, we are the proud sponsor of this Bill. We have sponsored and supported a number of measures in this area to get at a significant problem that's plagued port drayage drivers for decades, actually, since we had trucking deregulation in the early 1980s.
- Shane Gusman
Person
It's a misclassification that those drivers aren't protected like other employees with respect to wages. Hundreds of millions of dollars of wages have been robbed from these workers over those decades. They don't get injury protection through workers comp, Unemployment Insurance, et cetera.
- Shane Gusman
Person
So what this Bill is really designed to do is to look at port drayage trucking like we do with other industries that have a lot of worker exploitation, like janitorial, warehouse, et cetera.
- Shane Gusman
Person
And we just simply add port drainage trucking to those laws that really get at, do we have a minimum contract that will allow the the trucking company to comply with its legal requirements under the law? And then lastly, we add onto an existing joint liability law to strengthen it for port drayage drivers? We have worked very hard with the opponents over the whole time this Bill has been in print.
- Shane Gusman
Person
We have managed to take amendments to get the Trucking Association, California Trucking Association to neutral. And other opponents to neutral. And we certainly will continue to work with others who have concerns and ask for an aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. We have a motion. Anybody else here in support?
- Ivan Fernandez
Person
Good afternoon. Ivan Fernandez with the California Labor Federation in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Clifton Wilson, on behalf of the City of LA in support. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you very much. Do we have any primary witnesses here in opposition? Seeing none. Any me too testimony in opposition? Seeing none. Pull it back to the Committee. We do have a motion. Questions, comments, concerns? Seeing none. Let's call the roll.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Oh, yeah, you may. Sorry about that.
- Philip Ting
Person
I'll use the Senator's comments as my close.
- Scott Wilk
Person
It's not you, it's me. Geez.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Yeah. Thank you.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 14 AB 2754. The motion is due pass the Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call] You have four to one.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Four to one. We'll leave that open for Members to add on. And I see our next author is here. And we're gonna run the table, right? Well, hat trick is three. I see you have four.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Why?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Four is one on consent.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
One on consent. That's an easy one.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I see four, but I could be wrong.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
You panicked. Well, I forgot about the one...
- Scott Wilk
Person
Next is file item 16, AB... Do you want to go in file order? Is that your preference? AB 2050. And the recommendation is... Just a do pass. Love those. With that, whenever you're ready, you may start.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Thank you, Chair and Senators. In a state with statewide mailed ballots, the accuracy of our voter records is of paramount importance. The Electronic Registration Information Center, known as ERIC, is a powerful tool elections officials can use to ensure that they have the most up to date voter rolls.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
ERIC is a nonpartisan nonprofit governed by its member states that mutually agree to share data, such as voter registration and vehicle licensee data, in order to keep their voter rolls updated and to reach out to eligible but unregistered citizens. The Secretary of State estimates that there are 4.7 million unregistered eligible voters in California. That is greater than the population of 26 states.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
When a voter moves, they often re-register to vote in their new jurisdiction, but do not notify their prior county elections official that they have moved. Due to the highly mobile nature of California's population, it is likely that there are millions of voter registration records that are out of date due to a recent move. ERIC members do not have access to other members' data or reports stored on ERIC's servers, and state voter registration systems are never connected to ERIC.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
AB 2050 authorizes the Secretary of State to join ERIC on behalf of the State of California to provide the state with data on voters who have moved in state, out of state, or died, as well as providing data on Californians who are eligible to vote but are not registered. ERIC is designed to vote to work within the framework of the National Voter Registration Act, under which states cannot remove voters from the rolls just because ERIC reports they have moved.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Before removing a voter, states must contact the voter, seek to confirm ERIC's information, and leave voters on the rolls for at least two federal general election cycles, as consistent with federal law. The committee analysis raises issues concerning the privacy rights of Californians that may be implicated if ERIC joins...
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
If California joins ERIC. I agree with the importance of protecting Californians privacy, which is why this bill has included many privacy protections. Specifically, AB 2050 prohibits the sending of AB 60 license data to ERIC. Therefore, data on non-citizens is not sent to ERIC.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
It requires the Secretary of State to receive certification from the California Department of Technology that proper cybersecurity protections are in place in the Secretary of State's Office and at ERIC, and requires the Secretary of State to consult with the California Privacy Protection Agency when developing regulations governing California's participation in ERIC.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Additionally, ERIC's procedures include many steps to protect the privacy of information it receives, including hashing, which is a one way encryption of sensitive data before that information is sent to ERIC. Furthermore, California's participation in ERIC is consistent with state law governing the use of voter registration data, which provides for the data to be made available for election and governmental purposes as determined by the Secretary of State. Ensuring the accuracy of the state's voter registration rolls is unquestionably a legitimate governmental and election purpose.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
California's efforts to increase the accessibility of our voter registration system has been a great success. Becoming an ERIC member is a natural step in California's mission to improve the accessibility and ease of voting. AB 2050 is sponsored by the California Association of Clerks and Elections Officials, and with me to testify in support of ERIC is Shane Hamlin, the Executive Director of ERIC, and Tricia Webber, in front of me, representing the California Association of Clerks and Election Officials.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. With that, each witness gets two minutes.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
All right, thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
You go first.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Mr. Chair and Members of the Committee, my name is Shane Hamlin. I'm the Executive Director of ERIC, the Electronic Registration Information Center. I appreciate the opportunity today to speak in favor of AB 2050. As you heard, ERIC is a member led, member funded, nonprofit organization governed by state election officials. That is the elections directors in each of our member states, who, of course, report to their secretaries of state.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Carefully and securely using voter data, driver data, death data from the Social Security Administration, and national change of address data, we provide our members with actionable information they can use to better keep their voter rolls up to date, register new voters, and investigate possible cases of illegal voting. In this way, we aid in carrying out a governmental function, an essential function in terms of election integrity and the fair conduct and access to elections.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
We are not a commercial entity. ERIC has always taken data privacy and security seriously, and we respect and appreciate California's leadership in establishing strong privacy protections. Data privacy and security are baked into our governance documents and our technical infrastructure, and it includes multiple ways and layers of security in which we protect the data we have.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Two specific examples. One you heard the sponsor refer to earlier, and that's the one way hash. This is applied to the Social Security numbers, dates of birth, and driver's license numbers. Our members hash those values before transmitting the data to us, and they actually encrypt the entire file before it's transmitted to us.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Again, hashing is different than encryption. There's no going back. There are no keys for that. Hashed data are not shared with members, even in the reports they receive that include other states' data. We utilize SOC 2 audits. SOC 2 audits are the gold standard used for assuring customers and members that your organization is protecting their data.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Three quick points from our membership agreement on privacy. ERIC and our members must comply with applicable federal laws that apply to the data sets that we are using, including the Federal Drivers Privacy Protection Act and regulations on the NCOA data and death data. Our members are prohibited from using data... Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All righty. Next witness.
- Tricia Webber
Person
Do I...
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Yes.
- Tricia Webber
Person
Good morning. My name is Tricia Webber. I am the Co-chair of the Legislative Committee for the California Association of Clerks and Election Officials. I'm also the County Clerk and Registrar of Voters for Santa Cruz County. We are proud to sponsor this bill.
- Tricia Webber
Person
County officials want to maintain the best voter records they possibly can, and this using ERIC is one more tool that we can use in order to keep those records clear and clean and send out to our voters the information that they need. Right now, we already do this through the snail mail process, where somebody will register to vote. In Santa Cruz County, I take their previous registration and I send it out of state through mail, or I send it through VoteCal if they're within the State of California.
- Tricia Webber
Person
I received, last week or the week before, excuse me, something from another state that took four and a half months to get to me. And we finally were able to notify the voter. We received their registration and cancel them off the records. So this would be a great way for counties to maintain a better voter roll in a more real time situation. And I'm available to answer any technical questions about voter roll maintenance, if you have any. And we respectfully ask for your aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All righty. Thank you. Others in support of AB 2496, please approach the microphone.
- Alecia Perez
Person
Alecia Perez from the Office of the California Secretary of State in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Andrea Liebenbaum
Person
Hopefully it's AB 2050. Andi Liebenbaum on behalf of the County of Los Angeles in strong support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All righty, thank you.
- Stanicia Boatner
Person
Good morning, Chair and Members. Stanicia Boatner on behalf of the California State Association of Counties in support. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, others in support? Seeing no one else approach the microphone. Let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to file item number 17, AB 2496, please approach. You may take a seat at the table or the microphone. Your choice. I'm sorry.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Yes, yes.
- Ruth Dawson
Person
Good morning, Chair and Members. My name is Ruth Dawson with ACLU California Action. We are in respectful opposition to AB 2050 as the Bill would require California Secretary of State to share sensitive data with ERIC, which we believe is in conflict with California's longstanding strict privacy statutes and constitutional requirements that protect such data.
- Ruth Dawson
Person
We appreciate the guardrails that the author has added to the Bill in an attempt to safeguard California's privacy. Unfortunately, our concerns about confidentiality of private information and problematic errors in the ERIC system persist.
- Ruth Dawson
Person
In addition, recent problems related to the accuracy of ERIC's data sharing and matching programs show that voters could erroneously be flagged for removal from the voter file and wrongfully disenfranchised. ERIC has not been independently shown to increase voter registration more than it potentially erroneously purges voters, and that's why I'm here today.
- Ruth Dawson
Person
We want to thank the author and her staff for their time and collaboration and seeing whether we can reach a middle ground. And unfortunately, we just have a difference of opinion about which way the cost-benefit analysis lands here and thus remain opposed to the Bill. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in opposition, seeing no one else approached Mike from. Let's bring it back to Committee. Senator Roth, then, Senator Caballero.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I understand the safeguards that the system, I guess, apparently has, but I'm looking at page 12 in the analysis and there's a suggestion as to an amendment to allow opt-outs, opt-ins.
- Richard Roth
Person
We spend a lot of time on privacy here and we've got a bunch of bills in this packet of 70 or 67 or however many we're going to have to deal with before we go home tomorrow morning. And I'm just wondering where this suggestion for an amendment went. Did anybody take a look at it?
- Richard Roth
Person
Committee made the suggestion. Maybe a voter doesn't want to have their information in this process.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Well, the law already provides for the data to be used for election and governmental purposes because maintaining the accuracy of our voter rolls is of the utmost importance. So when voters register, they're basically signing up and we want to make sure that data is correct and updated. Should they move out of state or move within the state.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Council? Yes, go ahead.
- Richard Roth
Person
But I mean, I'm not exactly sure how clear it is to voters when they register that this is what they're signing up for. Do you?
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
I believe they do. I believe that when voters are registering to vote, they're signing up and knowing that they're going to be on a voter roll and they're going to be getting a ballot and that where you have a statewide voter registration database, where the data is shared amongst... Right. Right.
- Richard Roth
Person
Statewide. This is doing something else, isn't it?
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
And then on top of that, when voters move in and out of state, we're a very mobile state here in California. People are moving in and out all the time.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
So this is a great tool for us to be using to ensure that we're getting that information and updating those voter records so they are not disenfranchised when they do move. But let me turn that over to you.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Just a couple of points perhaps to consider in response. First, all of most of the other Member states of ERIC include information about their membership in ERIC prominently on their voter registration pages and websites, either through the state or at the county level or at both.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
So citizens in other states that are Members of ERIC do have access to a knowledge of what ERIC is. Secondly, I would say that...
- Richard Roth
Person
Are we requiring that in the Bill?
- Shane Hamlin
Person
It's not required, but I suspect, the Secretary of State's website on voter registration is very informative and includes a lot of information.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
And I suspect that they would add information about membership in ERIC if and when the state joins...
- Richard Roth
Person
We tend to be a little bit more clear.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Understood. Yeah. And then importantly, in the way that ERIC works.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Part of the reason why ERIC is so effective is because we do compare all available records in the voter file and the DMV file to identify voters who have moved or died.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
And if you voters can opt out of that, which I understand the desire to do that and offer that it would reduce the efficacy of those reports by excluding those voters from the data matching process, especially when identifying voters who have moved out of state so that you can remove them from your roll so they're no longer receiving ballots by mail, since you mail ballots here.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
And there's also the question of would that be retroactive or prospective? You know, would the Secretary of State have to offer to all 22 million currently registered voters the ability to opt-out or only to new registrants? I think it adds a lot of complexity and complication.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, Senator Caballero, then Senator Laird, then Senator Durazo.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I had the same question. I guess the thing that is important to me is that there be notice, and I get what you're saying in terms of the opt-in and opt-out. It just starts to get a little bit unwieldy.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
But I think people need to know that if we move in this direction, we're part of a system and that when you move, you're required to change your registration because I don't think people understand that. Quite frankly, I think part of the problem is people move and they don't think about it.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
And now that we send the ballots to their house, it's a different story. Right. Because your ballot is going somewhere else if you've moved. And so the necessity of advising the Secretary of State or your county register of voters is important.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
And that if you move and you don't advise that there's a process for figuring out where you went and trying to take you off the rolls where you left it. Just, I would feel much more comfortable if there's a system where we're letting voters know, not surprising them with, guess what, we've developed a new system.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
And it's one thing to share the information within the state. It's another to send my information to Texas when I have no plans on moving over there or wherever it is. So I think that advisement is going to be important.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
All right. Thank you. Do you want to respond to that?
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Just very quickly, technically, to help you understand the risks you're assessing? No Californian's data would get shared with another state unless they moved to that other state. Just to be clear.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
The way that you find out is you send the data out. So I'm just saying. I get what you're saying. I just think it's important that we do an education process. And if you're not going to have an opt-in or an opt-out, that there be part of the whole program, be an education process.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
So people are not surprised at what they may see as intrusive information. I mean, we started this automatic registration, getting your driver's license, and people are still surprised. And young people are surprised and shocked when they find out that now they're registered to vote. That is part of an education, should be part of an education process.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
And I'm sure our elections officials and our Secretary of State's office will want to make sure voters are informed of this tool that's available to them. And just on another side note, if somebody is not at a residence where a mail ballot is sent to, it does get sent back to the elections official as undeliverable.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
And they have processes on how they deal with those undeliverable ballots.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I think that what I heard Senator Roth say and Senator Caballero say, and they'll correct me if I'm wrong, is that we should join other states in legislating, that there be notice that we put it in the actual Bill. So I'll let you respond to that in your close. All right, Senator Caballero, any other questions?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, Senator Laird, then, Senator Durazo.
- John Laird
Legislator
I think you got right up to my question, because basically I get everything that's been talked about, but this is about information being shared outside. And there was a constant refrain on how the information is being protected in California. And how do you even know to just give the information to somebody that's moved?
- John Laird
Legislator
I mean, it seems to me that this is the opportunity to share information outside the state, and we do not have the same guardrails there. Tell me why I shouldn't be concerned about that.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
To be clear, when Members send data to ERIC, it is going outside the state. Of course. And it isn't a secure data center here in the US that we don't disclose publicly for security reasons. It undergoes those audits I talked about.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
So there are multiple layers, and I know you're not really focused on that, but that data is secure at our data center. Another member state only receives information on a California voter if that voter moves to that state and registers to vote or obtains a driver's license.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
And the reason they're identified is because we compare all states, all member states voter data and driver's license data against each other. And that's how we identify that California voter has moved, say, to Washington state, and then we can report back to the registrar in California that that voter has moved. That's how that.
- John Laird
Legislator
Let me go back to your initial statement. You say it's shared with a database that's got all these security levels, but outside the state.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Yes. It's not in California.
- John Laird
Legislator
And I can't describe the number of times everybody has all these security levels. And we read about massive breaches.
- John Laird
Legislator
How are we sure that we're protecting the privacy of California by shipping all this data out of state?
- Shane Hamlin
Person
A couple of things. One, of course, there is no 100% guarantee. Right. We all know that from the data breaches we've seen and heard about. But, the data center that we are at includes banking data, educational data, and healthcare system data. And they undergo industry standard audits and protections. We undergo industry-standard audits and protections.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Our members know where the data is and they can physically go to the data center and do their own inspections of the data.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
And the sensitive, most sensitive data elements are hash. And I will also say our data center is not accessible by the internet. There is no web-based application or access to the data.
- Shane Hamlin
Person
Only two ERIC employees have access to it through a secure VPN network and member states do not have access to the data center, literally two points of entry to the data center.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Well, I just hope you're right.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Laird. Yes. Okay. Thank you. Senator Durazo.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
I don't understand why any of these issues can't be dealt with here in California within our own state government. I mean, we, especially with what's going on in the rest of the country, with all these accusations of election improprieties, because some people are unhappy with the outcome.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
I've always been, rest assured that each state has absolute control over everything having to do with the election. The registering to vote, the unregistering to vote, the counting. I mean, all of that is in our control, not somebody else's.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
And I think the moment we start giving out information to others, with all due respect, with the protections that you have built in, it really makes it like it's setting us up for something goes wrong here, and our whole system can be questioned. Anything that could go wrong, even if it's once, that's it. We lose the credibility.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
And there's already enough attacks on our election system, even if there are lies, and we don't need just one incident of something going wrong. So I'm very uncomfortable. I don't know who ERIC is. I don't know who is it, ERIC or Erica?
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
I'm just the name of the nonprofit. It's the Electronic Registration Information Center.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Yeah, you give names. So you know who ERIC is, what ERIC does. I mean, these are big questions. I think we have an enormous responsibility to not allow any. And I have enormous trust. I'm not saying you don't have trust.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
I have enormous trust in our state, Secretary of State, in our system, to be able to do whatever we need to do to continue to be so. At this point, I can't support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All righty. Thank you. Other questions or comments? Seeing none. Is there a motion? Senator Roth has moved the Bill. All right. Thank you. And for those of you wish to further information, I direct you to the great American commentator Gary Trudeau in Doonesbury. From past last Sunday, that cartoon addressed this very subject matter.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, Senator Roth has moved the Bill. Would you like to close? Assemblymember Pellerin?
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Yes, I respectfully ask your aye vote. Maintaining an accurate voter file is absolutely essential to giving voters faith in our election system. So this is a very excellent tool that has all the privacy protections in place to ensure that we do have those accurate voter rolls.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
And imagine, you know, if you have a loved one that goes, that's growing old and ill, and they move to another state to live near a family, and they die in that other state and they're still registered in California. We don't get that data sometimes for a year. So this would be able.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
We'd be able to get that data instantaneously and be able to update those records so it does add more trust and integrity to our election system. I respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Madam Secretary, please call or. Excuse me, Madam Chief Counsel, please call the roll.
- Committee Counsel
Person
Yes, this is AB 2050, file item 16. The motion is due pass to Appropriations. [Roll Call] That's three to two with Members missing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty, thank you. We'll put that on call. All right. AB filing number 17, AB 2496.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Thank you, Chair and Senators, for the opportunity to present AB 2496. I'd like to address up front the unique circumstances surrounding the introduction of this legislation. This situation is urgent and dire, as designated by law. Foster Family Agencies play a critical role in the care of some of California's most vulnerable children.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
I introduced AB 2496 to ensure FFA's would not lose their liability insurance this year, leading to displacement of the 9000 foster children in their care. I will accept the Committee amendments listed in the analysis and would like to thank the Committee for all their time on this issue. The Bill does two things.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
It ensures the responsible parties are held accountable for any wrongdoing that happens to these children. It makes the necessary changes to the law allowing the FFA's insurer of last resort, the nonprofit Insurance Alliance of California, to continue providing insurance and allowing these children to remain in their current placements.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
What we must keep in mind is that our North Star must be protecting children from any harm. As a society, that must be the priority of every one of us. As a society, that must be the priority of every one of us. We want to prevent harm from happening in the first place.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
If harm does tragically happen to any of these children, then our second priority is making sure the responsible party is held accountable. As with other insurance markets, almost all commercial insurers have left or are leaving the FFA market. NIAC. NIAC, which is the nonprofit risk pool, now insures 90% of FFA's in California.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
NIAC is no longer able to accept new FFA's and later this year must begin non renewals for all existing existing FFA's unless there is a change in the law assuring the FFA's will not be held responsible for matters over which they have no control.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
I'd like to thank the chair of the Committee for its Diligent work in seeking a solution to this problem, and I pledge my commitment to working with all parties to find a path that will stave off this catastrophic issue facing these children.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
I am pleased to have Damian Zillis from the nonprofit Insurance Alliance of California and Chris Stoner Mertz from the California Alliance of Child and Family Services to testify on the Bill.
- Damian Zillis
Person
Thank you, Assembly Member Pellerin. I'd like to thank Senator Umberg and the rest of the distinguished Members of the Committee, as well as their staffs. It was a pleasure to work with all of them. I am here to talk about the Bill that I am the sponsor for, which is AB. Give us your name also.
- Damian Zillis
Person
Yes, thank you. AB 2496 the Foster Family Accountability Act.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
No, your name?
- Damian Zillis
Person
Oh, sorry. My name is Damian Zillis, and I am a corporate counsel for NAIC, and I'm a former litigator, so I have some experience with most of the matters involved in the Bill.
- Damian Zillis
Person
As corporate counsel for NAIC and a former litigator, I can sincerely tell you that AB 2496 is necessary, albeit moderate, Bill that largely codifies case law and adheres to the fundamental tenet of torts, which is if you break it, you buy it.
- Damian Zillis
Person
The foster family foster family agencies, otherwise known as FFA's, place foster children in resource homes. The vast majority do so professionally and responsibly without incident. However, when they do make a mistake and they injure a child, they must be held accountable. Correspondingly, holding foster family agencies liable for the conduct of others is rendering them uninsurable.
- Damian Zillis
Person
Currently, approximately 90% of FFA's in California are insured by my employer. We are the Defacto insurer of last resort. As a nonprofit ourselves, we are a nonprofit. We are mission driven to serve nonprofits and their stakeholders. Commercial insurers, on the other hand, who do not have such a mandate, have abandoned the market.
- Damian Zillis
Person
That's why we have 90% of it. They've left the market because FFA's face open ended risks. Without passage of AB 2496 NIAC will have no choice but to leave the market effective September 30 of this year, throwing the system, and more importantly, the vulnerable children in its care, into crisis. We do not wish to do that.
- Damian Zillis
Person
But continuing to ensure FFA's without AB 2496.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. If you could wrap it up, please.
- Damian Zillis
Person
Sure. Without the passage of this, it is. It poses an existential risk to NAIC and the 90% of the FFA's that we insure. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And you. Urgent. I vote yes, I do. All right. Thank you. Next witness, please.
- Christine Stoner-Mertz
Person
Dear Chair and Members, I'm Christine Stoner Mertz, CEO of the California Alliance of Child and family services, representing over 165 nationally accredited nonprofit organizations, most of whom are foster family agencies working with children and families involved in the foster care system. FFA's are private nonprofits that are licensed by the Department of Social Services and undergo rigorous licensure processes, a national accreditation process, and ongoing oversight through the state and county agencies.
- Christine Stoner-Mertz
Person
These organizations provide family based care with relatives and other families opening their homes to some of our most vulnerable children and youth. In California, FFA's provide 24/7 supports and services to resource families, including reunification supports, supervised supervision, supervised visitation, and assistance with everything from transportation to respite care for families.
- Christine Stoner-Mertz
Person
These organizations also provide close to 100% of intensive services. Foster Care, a program that addresses the most complex needs of children and youth. These wrap around 24/7 services provided through FFA's keep foster children in family based care rather than in higher level services.
- Christine Stoner-Mertz
Person
Many prospective resource families decide to become approved families with these nonprofits because they are community based and reflect the communities they serve. They're readily available to address individualized needs of children and resource families and specialize in services for medically fragile children, LGBTQ youth, older foster youth, and others with unique needs.
- Christine Stoner-Mertz
Person
There is nothing like them in the state. Without FFA's, resource families will not have options for what organization they work with, and options for children and youth will be seriously limited. AB 2496 is necessary for the survival of FFA's in California.
- Christine Stoner-Mertz
Person
It provides an assurance that if an FFA has complied with all its legal mandates and meets the standards expected of them by the state, they cannot be held liable for something out of their control. This does not diminish their liability for things they do have control over. We are proud to support AB 2495.
- Mark Segman
Person
Mark Segman with the American Property Casualty Insurance Association. Strong support. Thank you. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Perfect. All right, thank you very much. All right, others in support of AB 2496 please approach the microphone.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Jeff, State Acrisure Insurance Brokers of California here representing 200 insurance brokers who have written in strong support of AB 2496. Thank you.
- Esperanza Segeda
Person
Hi. Esperanto Segeda with Seneca Family of Agencies in strong support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Steve Parkers
Person
Hello. Steve Parkers with Heffernan Insurance Brokers, national nonprofit leader in strong support. Thank you so much.
- Marsha Lewis-Akyeem
Person
Marsha Lewis-Akyeem, CEO of Alternative Family Services. We are an FFA. I strongly support AB 2496. Thank you.
- Joe Martinez
Person
Joe Martinez, Transitions Children's Services in support of this Bill. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Kimberly Lewis
Person
Good morning. Kim Lewis, representing a spear in at an FFA surveying youth in 35 different counties and the California Coalition for Youth in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Asia Vasic
Person
Asia Vasic with Stanford Sierra Youth and Families and FFA here in Sacramento strongly, strongly support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Thomas Johnson
Person
I'm Thomas Johnson with Pacific Clinics and I strongly support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Karriann Hinds
Person
Carrie Karriann Farrell Hinds, representing Vista Del Mar Child and Family Services. We operate an FFA in Los Angeles County in strong support of 2496.
- Helena Lopez
Person
Helena Lopez, CEO of a Greater Hope Foster Family Agency in Southern California and also representing Association of Foster Family agencies and strong support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- David Smith
Person
David Smith, Human Resources Director of Koinonia Family Services. We have about 27 locations statewide and we strongly support the Bill.
- Gerad Borrego
Person
Thank you. Hello, Gerad Borrego, the Director of Development for Koinonia Family Services. We do run a statewide FFA organization. We strongly support this.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support saying no one else approached the microphone. Let's now turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2496 please approach the microphone or the table.
- Nancy Peverini
Person
Good afternoon. Actually not in opposition anymore, but Nancy Peverini with the consumer attorneys of California and also today for the Children's Advocacy Institute, removing our opposition to the Bill that will be amended. Thank you very much to the author and to the Committee. But as amended, we both remove our opposition.
- Justin Garrett
Person
Thank you. Thank you. Justin Garrett, the California State Association of Counties. Also on behalf of the Rural County Representatives of California, we had submitted an opposed, unless amended letter on the Bill in print. We understand the direction and the interest in the author on working together on a solution.
- Justin Garrett
Person
Appreciate that openness and really look forward to working together moving forward.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Kelly Brooks-Lindsey
Person
Kelly Brooks. On behalf of the Urban Counties of California, we would just echo CSAC's comments. Look forward to working with everyone.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, bring it back to Committee. Questions? The Bill. Senator Wilk has moved the Bill. All right. Other questions or comments? Seeing none, would you like to close?
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Yes. I respectfully ask your aye vote to protect these 9,000 foster kids from being displaced.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Madam Chief counsel, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Roll Call
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, we'll put that on call next. We have file number 18, and after that we're going to have file number 19 by Assembly Member Papan. And then after that, we're going to have another file item by Assembly Member Papan. And then I see Assembly Member Pacheco, who's here, and she will be next after Assembly Member Papan.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So Senate Member Pelerin, floor is yours.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Thank you, Chair and Senators, for the opportunity to present AB 2839. This year, California is entering its first ever election during which disinformation powered by generative AI will pollute our information ecosystems like never before. And millions of voters will not know what images, audio, or video they can trust.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Some of you have probably heard about a robocall that was disseminated back in January of President Biden, which encouraged voters not to participate in the primary election in New Hampshire. That AI generated robocall was a prime example of a nefarious use of generative AI, which seeks to disrupt our elections. This type of election disruption is not new, but the means of disseminating disinformation about an election is much more sophisticated due to the access to very sophisticated generative AI platforms.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Imagine another example in which a deepfake TV ad depicts an elections official saying that they rigged the votes in favor of one candidate or a mailer showing false images of tampered ballots. Today, it can be difficult for the average person to know what images before them are real or fabricated. This type of election related disinformation can dramatically affect voter behavior and undermine faith in our elections, even if they are later debunked.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
AB 2839 addresses this growing threat by prohibiting bad actors from distributing digitally altered mailers, robocalls, and video advertisements that are intentionally deceptive to voters and depict false information pertaining to a candidate running for office, an officer conducting an election, an elected official, or voting equipment. These criteria were carefully crafted using the input of strong defenders of the First Amendment. With me to testify in support today is Leora Gershenzon, representing the California Initiative for Technology and Democracy.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Floor is yours. Oh, let me ask you, have you accepted the committee's amendments?
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Yes.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you. All right.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
Thank you, Chair and Members. I'm Leora Gershenzon with CITED, the California Initiative for Technology and Democracy, a project of California Common Cause. AB 2839 seeks to protect the integrity of our elections from the worst of the worst deepfakes meant to defraud our electorate and undermine our faith in democracy. Imagine two hit pieces.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
One shows a smoky room and says that you're for sale. Not a good thing. But it's not the same as the other one, which is an actual deepfake of you, And you are caught on tape taking a bribe. Again, you may not like the first one, but the second one is fundamentally different. It's intended to defame you. It's intended to defraud the voters, and it's intended to... And once it is seen, it can't be unseen. It doesn't matter if there's a little label at the bottom of it that says AI generated.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
It's just such a strong image that it will change how people feel about the election and how they vote. This bill seeks to stop that deepfake and other similarly harmful deepfakes, but in a very narrow fashion. It only applies to candidates, elections officials, elected officials, and voting apparatus.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
It is narrowly drafted to be time limited, only applied to the worst of the worst deepfakes that are digitally manipulated and materially deceptive and are done with malice and with content that a reasonable person would think is authentic and are reasonably likely to harm the election or a candidate or to change the outcome.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
These narrow provisions of the bill are done to ensure that we comply with the First Amendment and to protect our elections and our integrity. Congress hasn't acted to protect our elections. And with so much at stake in the 2024 election, if they don't do it this year, they're clearly not going to do it. It's up to California, to all of you, to protect our elections and to protect our democracy. We ask for your support. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Others in support of AB 2039, please approach the microphone.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Dylan Hoffman on behalf of TechNet in a support if amended position.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Ronak Daylami on behalf of Cal Chamber, also in support if amended position. Thank you.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Clifton Wilson on behalf of the City and County of San Francisco Board of Supervisors in support. Thank you.
- Bryant Miramontes
Person
Mr. Chair and Senators, Bryant Miramontes with the American Federation of State, County, Municipal Employees in support.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Thank you. Dawn Koepke on behalf of the Computer and Communications Industry Association, also in a support if amended position. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Peter Kellison
Person
Peter Kellison on behalf of the California Broadcasters Association, supporting the bill as of amended on the 24th.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Danessa Tillis
Person
Danessa Tillis on behalf of Indivisible California State Strong, representing 80 Indivisibles across California, in strong support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2839, please approach the microphone. Going once. Going twice. Oh, here we go. Okay.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Just briefly, Dani Kando-Kaiser on behalf of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, respectfully still in opposition. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you.
- Jack Yanos
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Jack Yanos on behalf of Dish and DirecTV. We have an opposed unless amended position, but we're hoping to work with staff to resolve our outstanding concerns. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you.
- Stephanie Estrada
Person
Good afternoon. Stephanie Estrada on behalf of the Motion Picture Association in a respectful opposed unless amended position. We appreciate the author and the sponsor for working with us to make some potential amendments to exempt streaming services. And we look forward to the discussions into the summer. And hopefully, as of right now, we're still in opposition, but hopefully we hope to resolve that through the summer and remove that. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Okay.
- Grace Koplin
Person
Good afternoon. Grace Koplin on behalf of Warner Brothers Discovery. We are aligned with MPA's position and look forward to continuing the discussions. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Tiffany Phan
Person
Tiffany Phan on behalf of Sony Pictures. I align our comments with Motion Picture Association. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Patrick Joyce
Person
Good afternoon. Pat Joyce on behalf of NBC Universal, also echo the MPA's comments. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in opposition? Seeing no one else approach the microphone. Let's bring it back to committee. Questions by Committee Members? No questions by Committee Members? All right. Is there a motion? Senator Roth has moved the bill. Assembly Member Pellerin, would you like to close?
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Thank you, Senators. Getting the right information to voters is crucial to a functioning democracy. And it becomes very difficult to ensure the integrity of our election when convincing deepfakes are spread online, by phone, or through the mail to intentionally misinform the public. I respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. All right. Madam Counselor, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 18, AB 2839. The motion is do pass as amended to Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call] That's three to one so far, with Members missing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Three to one. We'll put that on call.
- Gail Pellerin
Legislator
Thank you so much.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Assembly Member Papan, then Assembly Member Pacheco.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
You ready? Okay, great. I'll have my witnesses come forward on AB 2037.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Floor is yours. Go ahead.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Thank you, Senator.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Thank you. I'm waiting for my witnesses to come in. I see them entering the room. Thank you for your patience. I know it's been a long morning and you got a long way to go. Do you have your other witness? I'll start, and then as this person comes in, it'll be fine. Okay. So.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Thank you, Mr. Chair and Members. AB 2037 will give county sealers the authority to test and verify publicly owned EV chargers. County sealers are tasked with testing and verifying commercial measurement devices, such as grocery store scales, gas pumps. Their job is to make sure you get what you pay for. Generally, their jurisdiction covers privately owned equipment.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
As such, there is currently no entity in charge of publicly owned EV chargers. To ensure confidence, impartiality, and consumer protection, it's imperative that county sealers have clear authority to test and verify publicly owned EV chargers. I recently amended the Bill to conditionally exempt publicly owned electrical utilities chargers.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
If they want to exercise this exemption, they must test their chargers to the same accuracy standards as the sealers and test them every six months. This is a higher testing frequency than the county does, and that is for good reason. The POUs, which are the publicly operated utilities, are not an independent third party.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
And if we're going to allow for self fair, then robust guardrails must be in place. The POUs have testified that they already conduct this testing on a monthly basis. So I believe this amendment, having them provide results every six months, is a reasonable and balanced approach.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
With inflation and growing income disparity, people are experiencing hard times when every dollar counts. It's critical that you get what you pay for.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Here to testify with me today is Matt Cyberlin on behalf of the county sealers, and Mr. Josh Huntsinger, who will go after Matt, who is a sealer himself, or would you like to go first, Mr. Huntsinger? Sure. Okay. Please.
- Josh Huntsinger
Person
Yeah.
- Josh Huntsinger
Person
Good morning, Chair and Committee. My name is Josh Huntsinger. I'm the Placer Cunty sealer of weights and measures, also on behalf of the California Agricultural Commissioners and Sealers Association. As was mentioned, the county sealers are responsible for testing and verifying the accuracy of all commercial weighing and measuring devices in California.
- Josh Huntsinger
Person
Electric vehicle charging stations represent a new and emerging technology which is becoming more and more prevalent throughout our transportation network. Unlike virtually all other types of weighing and measuring devices, many electric vehicle charging stations are operated on city or county property with a variety of different business models associated with them.
- Josh Huntsinger
Person
This Bill seeks to create an equitable marketplace for consumers and for industry, so that both the consumers and the industry are operating from the same position, whether on public property or on private property.
- Josh Huntsinger
Person
And so this Bill will ensure that one set of standards is applied to all electric vehicle charging stations throughout the state, regardless of whose property they are located on.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Next witness.
- Matthew Siverling
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair and Members, Matthew Seiberling, on behalf of the California Agricultural Commissioners and Sealers Association, I'll be brief. I know you have a long day today.
- Matthew Siverling
Person
The fundamental and most basic purpose for this Bill is if you're buying something that's being measured and there's a device that's determining the cost based on that measure, the county sealers currently test it, seal it, and have jurisdiction over it. We view this device as no different.
- Matthew Siverling
Person
We don't think there's a distinction whether or not it's owned by a public entity or a private entity. If there's a commercial device in the mix, the county sealer, through their licensing with the state, has jurisdiction over it and needs to have the ability to provide that consumer protection.
- Matthew Siverling
Person
We do, as the author has pointed out, have offered a conditional exemption, which is the first in our extremely long list of devices that we currently have jurisdiction over.
- Matthew Siverling
Person
In the meantime, during the interim period here, we'd like to have a chance to at least check in with the device, considering that we're taking our jurisdiction completely off of it. We're not charging fees, we're not testing. We're allowing people to test their own devices and verify the accuracy of them.
- Matthew Siverling
Person
We'd like to be able to check in with them at least twice a year, just to make sure the testing is being done and to make sure that the devices work. And for those reasons, we ask for your aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, others in support of AB 2037.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Clifton Wilson on behalf of the Placer County Board of Supervisors in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Kelly Brooks-Lindsey
Person
Kelly Brooks on behalf of the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors here in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2037, please approach the. Either the table or the microphone.
- Gregory Cook
Person
Mr. Chair and Members, Greg Cook, representing Northern California Power Agency. We're a joint powers authority consisting of 16 local, locally owned government, state, city, local district that operate their own electricity service. We are responsible for the reliability of our service, from the distribution system, from the electrons that we provide, and for the billing of those systems.
- Gregory Cook
Person
We did seek an exemption from this requirement from the author. And after numerous meetings, she has agreed to accept the conditions that we've offered, which provide for greater reliability on the part of the utility, provide for record-keeping to provide to make sure that the records are up to date and make public access to those records available.
- Gregory Cook
Person
We will follow every requirement that current California regulation and federal regulation requires regarding testing. We do have a problem with this Bill in its present form. We did suggest to the author that because, she said, we think if the local government is going to be responsible, then they should have an extra hurdle.
- Gregory Cook
Person
We said we will continue to do this, but on an annual basis as opposed to the biannual basis that the sealers require. She said, no, I don't trust City Council saying, well, I'm just going to cut my budget, so we're going to reduce the operation and we're not going to do it on an annual basis.
- Gregory Cook
Person
So I'm going to put six months in there because I think that that provides greater responsibility on the part of local government. We absolutely disagree with that. We are fully responsible for the service that we provide our customers. I strongly urge you no vote on this Bill. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in opposition.
- Anthony Samson
Person
Good morning, Mr. Chair, Anthony Samson on behalf of the Southern California Public Power Authority, SCAPA members are publicly owned electric utilities that are governed by local officials who live in the communities that they serve.
- Anthony Samson
Person
Pos are not for profit public agencies with the primary duty to protect consumers, which is why they consistently outperform the private sector and reliability, affordability and customer satisfaction. Let me start by clarifying what this Bill is about and what it is not about. This Bill is about ensuring EV chargers are not incorrectly assessing costs on consumers.
- Anthony Samson
Person
This Bill is not about fixing chargers that are broken or out of order, which is a broader issue being discussed and addressed separately in different legislative proposals on that issue. POUs have a high reliability record on this issue and have processes in place to fix broken charges in a timely fashion.
- Anthony Samson
Person
With this distinction in mind, the recent amendments to AB 2037 allows POUs to conduct their own inspections instead of paying the county sealers to do them. We very much appreciate those amendments. However, the amendments arbitrarily require POUs to inspect charges every six months, which is four times as frequent as the county sealers.
- Anthony Samson
Person
To be clear, SCAPA is prepared to remove opposition with the requirement that POUs inspect annually at a minimum as soon as this Bill takes effect.
- Anthony Samson
Person
This would result in inspections at twice the rate as required of the county sealers, and inspections would begin more than a decade before the sealers would be required to inspect, but requiring inspections every six months would quadruple inspection costs, which would be borne by POUs and their ratepayers.
- Anthony Samson
Person
Moreover, as POUs install more and more chargers, they will need flexibility to ensure they can inspect all of them at a reasonable frequency that doesn't create unreasonable costs to consumers. An annual frequency requirement would provide that flexibility. And for these reasons, we must oppose AB 2037 unless it's amended. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Others in opposition to AB 2037.
- Kyra Ross
Person
Good morning. Kira Ross on behalf of the City of Burbank, Burbank Water and Power, opposition unless amended with the six months to one-year annual inspection. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Mike Roos
Person
Mike Roos, on behalf of the California Municipal Utilities Association, sharing the previous comments in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Anyone else in opposition AB 2037 seeing no one. Let's bring it back to Committee. Senator Roth.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You know, we had another Bill in another context, and I don't remember where, having to do with county sealers, and I think they were called registered service agents, or RSAs.
- Richard Roth
Person
My recollection of the Bill is we have these rsas who are certified sealers who contract and are paid to go out and inspect, repair, service, these electric chargers. And when they do, I guess the question was they also have to certify that the, the electricity, the meter, whatever it is, it's called something else, is accurate.
- Richard Roth
Person
And the question was, do they have to do that when they're not repairing the piece of the charger that delivers the electricity to the vehicle? And I think that was the subject of the Bill. But the point is, if you're a municipal utility, I assume you go out and you inspect and repair chargers that have issues.
- Richard Roth
Person
And at that point in time, if you are certifying the accuracy of the meter, do you do that?
- Anthony Samson
Person
Yes.
- Anthony Samson
Person
Secondly, we're pairing with.
- Richard Roth
Person
Okay.
- Richard Roth
Person
I understand what this. No, I read the Bill. My question is, when you're inspecting and repairing the electric charging device, do you also check to make sure that the power that's being delivered to the vehicle and charged to the customer is accurately charged? Yes, it's ensuring that the cost of the consumer is.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
And yes, they're also benefiting from the electric car.
- Richard Roth
Person
I figured as much. And if you were going to say no, I was going to say, why not? And so my question to the authorization is, do these additional activities that occur during the year outside of a normal inspection count toward your every six month inspection?
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Well, what they testified to in the last Committee. No, I understand.
- Richard Roth
Person
I understand. But I mean, my question is, well.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
They'Re doing it every month. Every month they tell us they go out and they inspect every single month for accuracy.
- Richard Roth
Person
No, but my question is this.
- Richard Roth
Person
If you, they have a six month schedule for 100 electric chargers, but if during the course of the year they are either required or they go out and they repair and fix a charger and then certify at that point that the charger is delivering the electricity that they're charging the customer for, does that count toward the six month inspection even though it's not on the schedule?
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That's the mechanics of how it will work, Senator, I don't really know. I think that they should be every six months we'll get them on a regular schedule and we'll have reporting on a regular schedule. If they were there in February and the reporting is in June, they can certainly tell us in February it worked.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
I don't know, but I believe they should be on a regular schedule. And again, this is based upon their own efforts. So to come to this Committee and testify, oh, my gosh, this would cost our ratepayers more when there was a very emphatic testimony in the last Committee that we are out there every month testing for accuracy.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Six months.
- Richard Roth
Person
I understand. Reporting is okay. I understand the nature of the disputes you're having with the municipally owned utilities. If you're there every month, then why not do it? Tell us what happens in June.
- Richard Roth
Person
So as long as they figure out whether it's a service repair and certification or a separate certification trip, which the sealers would do, it all counts toward an inspection.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
The certification is the issue, not whether it's currently being maintained, whether it's a.
- Richard Roth
Person
Service visit, service repair and certification, or a separately scheduled certification, it all counts for an inspection every six months.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
I think the certification is the most important thing of those. So, I'd like to see certification every six months if they have to make a separate trip. I don't believe they do, because they told me they're doing it every month.
- Richard Roth
Person
So why are we talking about a separate trip? I think we're saying the same thing, but I just want to make sure that we are okay.
- Richard Roth
Person
Because you can see I have a six-month schedule for inspection, but in between the inspections, I send a crew out there and they service repair, and then they certify they shouldn't have to make another trip just because they're two weeks inside of the six months that should count.
- Richard Roth
Person
So I would expect that that's the way this is going to work. If it doesn't, I guess somebody other than me, because I won't be here, will be back here next year fixing it. I am going to vote for the Bill.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Thank you, sir.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I probably shouldn't say anything then, if. You're going to vote for the Bill. But to your question, the categorical criteria we're looking for can be gathered during these regular maintenance inspections.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
What the county sealers are looking for, just to be completely clear and believe it or not, is just some sort of avenue to check in and make sure that these are working correctly, because our primary goal and role in the process is consumer protection.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
So if we're taking our hands off, we just want to make sure we can check in and make sure someone somewhere is testing these for the criteria that we're currently looking for.
- Richard Roth
Person
And I'm sure our constituents are going to appreciate the fact that if they drive an electric vehicle, one, when they show up at a charger, it works, and two, when they put the electricity in it, the volts, they're going to be charged for what they actually get. So I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you, Mister chair.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you. Other questions or comments? Seeing no other questions or comments. Has there been a motion so moved? Senator Roth has moved the Bill. Would you like to close?
- Diane Papan
Legislator
I just request. How about respectfully request an I vote?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, sir. As long as it's respectfully. Then we'll go ahead and call the roll. Thank you. So. All right. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 19, AB 2037. The motion is due. Pass the Senate appropriations. [Roll Call], four to zero.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Gonna put that on call. All right. Assemblymember Papan, your next bill. File item number 20. If anyone's in the hallway on file number 20. They should come into the Committee hearing room if they wish to voice their view in support or opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So AB 2515 we've had a robust discussion on this bill and there are a number of amendments. I don't think that they're in the analysis and so we'll need to go over them. You want to start or you want me to start? Go ahead.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Why don't we start with you, Assembly Member Papen, and then I'll confirm.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Thank you. I haven't. They're not a part of my remarks, but I think I've got a pretty good idea what they are and they are acceptable, just so you know. So, first of all, I'd like to thank the chair and the committee for their robust engagement.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
This bill is about protecting the environment, public health and ensuring women's health equity. AB 2515 the TAMPON Act, which stands for take all menstrual product PFAS out now, will set a threshold of 10 parts per million for unintentionally added PFAS in 2027.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
In practice, this means manufacturers will have two years to identify any unintentionally added PFAS in their supply chain, something that should have been done a long time ago. We have seen multiple bills come through the Legislature recently that address PFAS and various products, and for good reason.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
These forever chemicals are ubiquitous and cause severe health problems, including hormone and immune system disruption, kidney and liver damage, and, of course, cancer. However, I would argue that the menstrual products are different and require a higher level of scrutiny.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
These products are used in the most intimate way possible in an area of the body that is delicate and highly vascular. Additionally, women's health is unequally compromised, as any human that has a uterus must use these products for three to seven days out of every month for roughly 40 years of their life.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Imagine the damage that can be done from such an intimate use over repeated exposure. AB 2515 is a reintroduction of a similar bill I carried last year, AB 246, which made it to the governor's desk but was vetoed.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
In the governor's message, he asked that we work with the DTSC, the Department of Toxic Substance Control, so that the bill had a defined regulatory agency, and that's what we did in this version. I also have been working with the opposition to address their concerns.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Though the opposition contends that this bill contains no protections for the unintentional PFAS, I'd argue that the bill, with the amendments taken June 24, provides them a reasonable amount of protection via the notice of violation procedure outlined in the bill, including the preliminary notice procedure.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
With me today as my primary witness are Ryan Spencer, on behalf of the ACOG, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and Miss Sharon Green, on behalf of the Los Angeles County Sanitation District. I will turn it over to Miss Green.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Before we get to the witnesses, why don't I just recite what I think the amendments are, and I apologize to Committee Members because they're not in their analysis. So, just to clarify, your intent, and our intent is that DTSC is to give manufacturers 45 days to mitigate or take corrective action if requested by DTSC.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And if the entity responsible takes that corrective action, then a violation is not to be issued. Is that your understanding?
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That's correct. There's a 45-day what I'll call a preliminary notice period within which the DTSC will notify the polluter, if you will, and they will have an opportunity to rectify the situation. If it is not rectified, then the DTSC will issue a formal notice of violation, and within that, there could be penalties as well.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
You've got the reprieve to begin with.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Got it. But if the corrective action is taken within the 45 days, then there is no violation or penalty be issued. Correct?
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Right. No formal notice of violation and no penalty.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And that the DTSC and its sole discretion can issue an extension of that 45 day period.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That's the amendment that was requested last night, and that is acceptable.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay. I think we also clarified, just to make sure that we've clarified the first colloquy between the two of us as to what the impact is.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And then also in assessing any civil penalty that a court subsequently, if a court should make that decision, will take into account the various factors that you had had in your bill from last year, I believe that was AB 246.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Correct.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay. Those are amendments will be taken in subsequent Committee and Senate appropriations.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
That's right.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay. All right.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
And those factors set forth what a court will look at in determining whether or not to uphold a penalty, ultimately.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Or what it should be, if there should be one. Got it. Okay. Now let's turn to the witnesses.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
This is Miss Green. Please proceed.
- Sharon Green
Person
Good morning. I think it's still morning, Chair Umberg and Members of the Committee. I'm Sharon Green. I'm the legislative programs manager at the Los Angeles County Sanitation Districts. Sanitation districts provide wastewater and solid waste services to about five and a half million people in 78 cities and unincorporated areas in Los Angeles County.
- Sharon Green
Person
The sanitation districts are an example of what is known as a passive receiver of PFAS. We receive PFASin the waste streams that come from the people in the communities that we serve. We do not manufacture or add PFAS to our treatment processes, nor do we have any manufacturers of PFAS in our service area.
- Sharon Green
Person
But if you test for PFAS, you will usually find it in the waste streams that we manage. This is because PFAS is used in so many types of products, ranging from common household products to high tech products. And these products may be washed or disposed and end up going down the drain or being put in the trash.
- Sharon Green
Person
They end up in residential, commercial, and industrial wastewater, and they end up showing up at our materials recovery or recycling facilities. And for items that can't be recycled, they end up in the landfills. So, in short, we're finding that PFAS chemicals are ubiquitous and found at low background levels in wastewater and solid waste facilities everywhere.
- Sharon Green
Person
So AB 2515 is an important bill because it would limit the use of PFAS and menstrual products.
- Sharon Green
Person
In addition to potentially exposing women to PFAS for a portion of every month, which may pose substantial health risks, it is pretty much guaranteed that these products, or their packaging and whatever PFAS they contain, will enter the wastewater and solid waste stream and contribute to the overall levels of PFAS at waste and wastewater facilities and ultimately reaching the environment.
- Sharon Green
Person
The sanitation districts believe that eliminating non essential and incidental uses of PFAS in consumer and industrial products is key to reducing PFAS in the water cycle and in the environment more broadly. The first step to addressing this ubiquitous chemical problem and protecting our individual health.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. I assume you urge an aye vote?
- Sharon Green
Person
Yes, I do. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, next witness.
- Ryan Spencer
Person
Ryan Spencer on behalf of the American College of OBGYNs District Nine. I just want to say that ACOG has long expressed their concerns about the effects of exposure to environmental chemicals, including PFAS, to women and birth individuals, especially in products such as menstrual products, and really, for all the reasons stated by the assemblywoman and the previous witness.
- Ryan Spencer
Person
And so with that, I'll ask for your aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, others in support of AB 2515 please approach the microphone. Name, position, affiliation.
- Alfredo Redondo
Person
Good morning, Mr. Chair, members of the Committee, my name is Alfredo Redondo and I'm here on behalf of the Irvine Ranch Water District in support.
- Spencer Saks
Person
Spencer Saks on behalf of the California Association of Sanitation Agencies in support, thank you.
- Lea Jones
Person
Good afternoon, Chair and Committee Members. Lea Jones, on behalf of A Voice for Choice Advocacy in strong support, thank you.
- Kelly Macmillan
Person
Hello. Kelly MacMillan, on behalf of the Commission of Status of Women and Girls, thank you.
- Sarah Boudreau
Person
Sarah Boudreau with the City of Roseville in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Jennifer Capitolo
Person
Jennifer Capitolo, California Water Association in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Symphoni Barbee
Person
Symphoni Barbee, on behalf of Planned Parenthood affiliates of California, thank you. In support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Alyssa Silhi
Person
Alyssa Silhi on behalf of the City of Santa Rosa in support, thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Others in support? Seeing no one else in support, now we'll turn to opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2515 you may either sit at the table or approach the microphone. Thank you. Go ahead.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair and Members. Dawn Koepke, on behalf of the California Manufacturers and Technology Association in regretful opposition. That said, we do appreciate the chair and the Committee's conversations and deep engagement on the issues.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Just kind of as to level said, in terms of CMTA's opposition, and to be clear right out of the gate, CMTA member companies for these products do not add these chemicals for any purpose whatsoever. If these chemicals exist in these products, it is based purely on trace unavoidable contamination.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Now, all that said, we do certainly have concerns at 10 parts per million and our ability to control for that, especially given the ubiquity of these chemicals.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Now, our manufacturers can do everything possible in terms of looking at where they're sourcing their raw materials from, in terms of cotton, much less due diligence as part of wiping down manufacturing lines, what have you. But we are not certain, again, given the ubiquity of these chemicals, that we can keep those trace unavoidable levels below 10 ppm.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
And that is the fundamental reason for our concerns, paired with the concerns around significant liability and enforcement. Now, we appreciate the conversations as part of the amendments today. It still does remain somewhat unclear to us with regard to the ability for DTSC to require corrective action manufacturers to undertake that. Certainly the manufacturers are open to that.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
I think the question just becomes, if they undertake corrective action per DDSC's request, and it still comes back above 10 ppm as unavoidable, is that still a violation? That is a fundamental question that I think still remains. Additionally, in terms of the public notice that's contained within the bill, that also is very concerning.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Typically, agencies are the ones that provide the public notices when a violation occurs. However, the bill also provides that a manufacturer would have to post not only on its website, also on its social media pages regarding a violation. And again, this would be a violation for unavoidable trace contaminants.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
So there is a significant amount of concern regarding potential liability under false advertisements.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. You urge a no vote?
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
We urge a no vote at this time.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, great. Thank you. Next witness. And let me do a little housekeeping here. We've got late breaking news. That late breaking news is that the Democrats in the Assembly are going to caucus apparently right now. So that creates a challenge for us.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We have one Republican bill up today and we'll hear that bill, I suppose, in short order, but, and we're going to hear Assembly Member Pacheco's matter and then we're going to break. And I'm not sure exactly how long we're going to break for, but we're going to break.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So I'm sorry to interrupt, but I know a lot of folks are very interested in what our schedule is going to be. So, okay. Next witness, please.
- Lauren Aguilar
Person
Thank you, Chair Umberg and members of the Committee, I'll keep this really short. Lauren Aguilar, on behalf of the Center for Baby and Adult Hygiene Products Association, we are also regretfully in opposition to this bill. And I echo everything that my colleague Dawn said.
- Lauren Aguilar
Person
I just want to also say again that our members are not intentionally adding PFAS to our products and we are supportive of the intent of the bill. But we still do have some general concerns around the public notification requirements as well as the penalties being extremely high for the scope of violation. Thank you.
- John Laird
Legislator
Thank you. Yes, this is for the me toos in the opposition. And I am your temporary interim chair.
- Bill Allayaud
Person
I am Bill Allayaud with Environmental Working Group in an awkward position because we've been supporting and sponsoring PFAS bills for a few years now.
- Bill Allayaud
Person
I'm also representing NRDC, Clean Water Action, Breast Cancer Prevention Partners, California Consumer Attorneys, Center for Environmental Health, where we put a late letter in opposed Monday because we just got the amendment that the chair described about the right to cure and you won't get a violation.
- John Laird
Legislator
I'm letting you go. But this is a pretty wordy me too.
- Bill Allayaud
Person
That's it. Because of the right to cure, we're kind of opposed unless amended and we'll work with the author. Okay. Thank you very much.
- Julee Malinowski-Ball
Person
Thank you. Julee Malinowski-Ball on behalf of the American Chemistry Council, echo the comments made by CMTA, opposed unless amended, thank you.
- John Laird
Legislator
Thank you.
- Annalee Akin
Person
Thanks. Annalee Augustine on behalf of Consumer Brands Association, also in opposition.
- John Laird
Legislator
Seeing no other me toos in opposition. We're going to bring it back to the Committee. I understand Senator Roth has a question.
- Richard Roth
Person
I'm just curious about the 10 parts per million. How did we get to that?
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Well, it's already what occurs in Europe and that you can test at 10 parts perennial million. So that's why we got down to that level.
- Richard Roth
Person
And so given the fact that it's the unintentional piece of this that is of concern to me and how did we, what's, does anyone know what's the standard for water?
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
If I may, Senator. So in terms of standards for water, notably the PFAS class of chemicals, thousands of chemicals, wide and deep, as you may be aware. So over 3000, some estimates are higher than that in terms of water and actual maximum contaminant levels.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Before PFAS and drinking water, there have only been just a small subset of those that have actually had standard sets. So largely for PFOA, PFAS to particular PFAS chemicals that are indeed very much known to have challenges, very significant effects. So, but there are not drinking water standards for the thousands of chemicals within the PFAS class.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
So important. Those two in particular are very low, but we would argue.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
.02 parts per million. Okay.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
But again, not all have been classified, much less have standards set for them.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
And the unintentional doesn't kick in until two years from now to allow some opportunity to cover and to avoid anything that you might not have seen along the way.
- Richard Roth
Person
I mean, my concern was many manufacturing plants plug into the water supply, whether it's a municipal supply or a supply from somebody else, and, you know, you don't have much control over what comes in the water pipe that's used in the manufacturing process.
- Richard Roth
Person
But if the, if the water standard is 0.02 parts per million, and we're talking 10 parts per million here, presumably the water is going to come in pretty close to 2 parts per million, or we got a problem.
- Richard Roth
Person
And then since PFAS or PFAS-related chemicals are present everywhere, including in us, how do we, and you're using cotton and other fabrics to make the products that we're dealing with here, and those are grown somewhere, and presumably what's in the dirt and the water gets in the product, how do you control that?
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Therein does lie challenges, certainly, Senator. I would also just go back to in terms of the drinking water standard being far below 10 ppm, again, that's only for just two or three particular PFAS chemicals within a class of thousands. So I think that's important to note.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
But in terms of your point around sourcing cotton, raw materials, absolutely, given the ubiquity of these chemicals in, a very deep number of chemicals within the class, you're taking those chemicals in terms of uptake and water into the cotton through the soils, what have you. And so that may not be able to be mitigated in full.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
And when you pick up a ppm here and there throughout that process, even if we tried to source, you know, our cotton from, you know, kind of different farms, what have you, there is not certainty that we can keep that level throughout the entire supply chain and manufacturing chain down below 10 ppm, even if we were to do our due diligence in sourcing, wiping down manufacturing lines from lubricants that may have PFAS, what have you.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
So it's challenging and that liability enforcement is of concern given those challenges.
- Richard Roth
Person
Is there aprocess in place now, what's the process to test for PFAS in textile material, for example?
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
So historically, manufacturers have not had to test for things that they're not adding to their products. So again, as I stated out of the gate, Senator, they are not adding PFAS chemicals to these products for any reason. And we have not had a need or a reason to have to test for things that we're not adding.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
That said, manufacturers recognize there are concerns and are certainly open to doing more in terms of due diligence to try to mitigate contaminants where possible. But it is not certain that it's unavoidable above 10 pp.
- Richard Roth
Person
I assume testing is practicable. I mean, you can test raw materials such as cotton.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Yes, the challenge there, there is variability among cotton fields and uptakes. Further, as part of the language within the bill, it requires a test that is a total organic flooring test.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
That test is a combustion test, which essentially means you have to light either the cotton or the end product on fire to test for the presence of PFAS, which makes it challenging to test every single tampon or pad when it's being put into commerce and be able to know if it's below because of the ubiquity of these chemicals and variability in those manufacturing processes from one tampon in a box to another, and whether there may be different levels between those.
- Richard Roth
Person
Having spent a lot of time in Georgia, I guess it depends on what part of the field the cottons pick from, depending on how large the field.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Yes.
- Richard Roth
Person
Well, there are obviously some complications with this Assemblymember. You know, I'm going to support the Bill. But I think as this moves forward we're going to have to figure it out because I don't know how a manufacturer, that water is one thing because you can test it at the time that it comes into your manufacturing plant.
- Richard Roth
Person
Presumably the water suppliers are doing the same thing and keeping it below the standard that we all say needs to be.
- Richard Roth
Person
But when it comes to the products that are grown in fields that use water from other places and, or suck up whatever is in the dirt from who knows when and fields are large and you don't, you may spot check, but I don't know what the process would be to make sure that you spot check enough to ensure that you have a pallet or a series of pallets of cotton that are going to go into the manufacturing process that meets your standards.
- Richard Roth
Person
So we're going to have to think through that. A little complicated for this hearing. So.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Well, if I may. Which is why we put the 45 day preliminary notice procedure in the bill because we've heard all along about this unintentional, we haven't done anything. So I did two things to try to accommodate those concerns. Number one is two years until it kicks in.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
Number two is if in fact the DTSC finds something by doing their sampling as they do out in the, you know, they'll just take a sampling that's out in the universe, if you will, and they find something. You've got 45 days as a manufacturer to get a hold of what's going on.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
And if you don't, only then does the notice of violation kick in and penalties kick in because the public's got to know. So that's why we accommodate that. I've been down this road for two years now with, we don't intentionally put it in, but we might have unintentional.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
I heard you and this is the procedure that we came up with and I think it's a reasonable procedure to allot for those uncertainties as a manufacturer.
- Richard Roth
Person
And the good news is some of us will be going away, but you will be here. And so I'm confident that you're in saying what you said. You're committing to me to take a look at this.
- Richard Roth
Person
And if it proves rather unworkable for the manufacturing sector, because this is a pretty essential product, we'll have to figure something else out and I know you'll do it. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes.
- John Laird
Legislator
Questions from any other Member? I would just make a comment.
- John Laird
Legislator
And that is even though it's water-based, I had the experience when I was first in the Assembly of the perchlorate spill out of Morgan Hill, where highway safety flare plant had been throwing it in the ground for 30 or 40 or 50 years, and it went to a nine-mile plume.
- John Laird
Legislator
The point being, that's on point here. There was regular testing, and it was right at the time that the testing standard, the science, dropped to be able to detect it at a much higher level.
- John Laird
Legislator
And they would do tests every three months, and sometimes wells would be just in contamination, and the next time they might be just outside the level. And because there was regular testing and because it was a, no pun intended, fluid situation, it was just different in how they did it.
- John Laird
Legislator
And so it's a question, and I know that some of what Senator Roth was asking about was not water based, but it's just a question of how best to do that over time. And hopefully that's what the two years is used for, is to determine that.
- Diane Papan
Legislator
And some of the textiles are on it as well. You're starting to get more regulation at the textile level as well, so that should help us along the way.
- John Laird
Legislator
Oh, you're going to be busy the rest of your term. I don't have a motion yet, but would you like to close?
- Diane Papan
Legislator
I just respect the request, an aye vote, I think we've gotten to a place on this bill that makes it workable, and I look forward to moving it along. So thank you for your support.
- John Laird
Legislator
Thank you. Motion by Roth. Would you please call the roll?
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 20, AB 2515. The motion is do pass to Senate appropriations. Umberg, Wilk, Allen, Ashby, Caballero, Durazo. Laird. Laird, aye. Niello. Roth. Roth, aye. Stern, Wahab. Two to zero.
- John Laird
Legislator
Two to zero. We will place that on call. Thank you very much. Senator Pacheco has been patiently waiting. We're going to move to item 21, Assembly Bill 1160 by Assemblymember Pacheco. And if anybody's in the hallway and intends to testify, please come in the room and get ready to do that. So welcome to the Committee.
- John Laird
Legislator
The floor is yours.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
Thank you and hello Mr. Chair and Members of the Committee. Today I present Assembly Bill 1160. I'd like to thank Committee staff for their hard work on this Bill and I will be accepting the Committee amendments.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
These amendments, in addition to amendments taken last week, reflect months of conversations with opposition and good faith efforts to mitigate concerns while ensuring that our goal to protect students from the harms of institutional debt remain intact. Let me be clear. AB 1160 preserves tools for colleges to collect debt and bring in revenue.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
The Bill does not cancel institutional debt nor require colleges to do so. It does not absolve students of their repayment responsibilities. Instead, AB 1160 helps students succeed academically and professionally while increasing colleges' chances of debt collection.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
The Bill introduces a one-time grace period for students to re-enroll and make progress towards their degrees while working to repay their institutional debt. Students must pay for the current term and settle their debt by paying it off or entering a payment plan by the end of that term to continue enrolling after the grace period.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
The Bill also establishes safeguards on the use of for-profit, third-party debt collection. Schools must wait 180 days before subjecting students to collections or reporting negative marks on students' credit reports. The Bill also requires schools to communicate to students the significant financial consequences of being subject to collections.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
These provisions align student debt collection protections with those for medical and other debts under California law. Additionally, the Bill sheds light on this under-regulated market of school-owed debts by requiring schools to report their debts and collection practices.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
As requested from stakeholders, we have amended the Bill significantly to provide more time and fewer reporting requirements, ensuring that schools have the resources to collect and report data adequately. I have maintained an open door policy for stakeholders and as you can see in the bill's two-year history, I have taken numerous amendments in direct response to the opposition's concerns.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
New ideas were presented leading up to today's hearing, but I remain committed to continuing to work through with those with the opposition. The current version of the Bill reflects a strong middle ground that will be workable for institutions and, most importantly, protect students. The institutional debt crisis has long been overlooked.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
During the first two years of the COVID pandemic, more than 750,000 low-income students owed more than 390 million to California public colleges. We can and we must do more to protect California students. The Bill presented today is a compromise, but it will benefit students and colleges alike.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
Today, I have two witnesses to testify in support of AB 1160. I have Aissa Canchola BaƱez, Policy Director at the Student Borrower Protection Center, and I also have Professor Charlie Eaton, Associate Professor of Sociology at UC Merced. Now I'll hand it over to them.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. First witness.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
Great. Hello. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair and Committee Members. My name is Aissa Canchola BaƱez and I serve as the Policy Director for the Student Borrower Protection Center. We are a national nonprofit organization working to advance state and national policies to alleviate the burden of student debt.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
We're proud co-sponsors of AB 1160 and thank assemblymember Pacheco for her leadership and willingness, really to work alongside us to ensure that this Bill is workable, but also protects students and families. Unlike the national student debt crisis that's really dominated the headlines over the recent years, as the Assemblymember mentioned, institutional debt has largely gone overlooked.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
These debts often accrue when emergencies for students to withdraw mid-term, largely due to public health or financial emergencies. And unfortunately, they lack the various consumer protections and transparency requirements afforded to borrowers under federal law. And over the course of the pandemic, we began to really understand the consequences and impacts of institutional debt.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
Researchers across the UC system had found that schools were using both traditional third-party debt collectors to recover these debts, but also use tactics unavailable to, excuse me, to most creditors, like preventing students from re-enrolling in their education and referring students to tax benefit offset, which disproportionately harm California's lowest income students.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
While AB 1160 will protect students from many of these harms, it will also allow schools to maintain collection tools as a last resort, AB 1160 gives students the chance to re-enroll to get back on campus while they work with administrators to repay their institutional debt or enroll in a payment plan.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
Students will benefit by getting back on track, and schools will collect new tuition while collecting the owed debt. And as Professor Eaton will testify, these provisions actually make the Bill revenue positive for schools when implemented.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
It establishes common sense guardrails for the use of third-party debt collectors that mirror existing standards in California and prevents students from being subject to tax offset for two years after leaving campus, protecting them during a crucial time when studies show they're most likely to return to campus and complete their degree.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
And last but not least, the Bill requires data and transparency. So, policymakers,
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I assume you urge an aye vote.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
I strongly encourage an aye vote, thank you.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair, Members of the Committee, I am Charlie Eaton. I'm an economic sociologist and Professor at University of California, Merced, where I co-founded the higher education race in the economy lab. Our lab co-authored the creditor College's study of institutional student debt with UC Irvine law Professor Dalia Jimenez and Berkeley Law Professor Jonathan Glater.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
Institutional debts work differently than student loans, and they tend to be more harmful. We estimate that 300,000 mostly low-income California students incur these debts in an average year, and currently only around 25% of these debts are ever repaid because students lack the means.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
AB 1160 will help thousands of these students to complete their education, and it will also help our higher education segments bring in additional revenue to serve students. Here's why. Most students incur these debts when they withdraw from school in the middle of an academic term because of a health or economic hardship.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
Schools are then required to return some of these students Pell grants and student loan aid to the US Department of Education. Most schools then place registration holds that bar further enrollment until students repay their federal aid to the school.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
AB 1160, as amended, would grant students a one-time grace period to re-enroll for the academic term after incurring the debt. And as amended, AB 1160 would also establish a two-year grace period from tax refund offsets for debts.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
Together, these amendments would allow students to arrange a payment plan for what they owe while continuing progress towards their degree. Several community colleges, CSUs and UCs, including my own, have already demonstrated success with this approach in recent years, but most schools have resisted these beneficial practices.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
Contrary to some misunderstandings, AB 1160 will not create a loophole for students to get out of paying tuition. This is because AB 1160 preserves schools dropped for nonpayment policies.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
In sum, AB 1160, as amended, takes a balanced approach to protect students while helping schools keep them enrolled when hardships create unexpected debts. Thanks and I'm happy to answer any questions.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, other witnesses and support, please give us your name, your affiliation and your position.
- Caroline Nguyen
Person
Caroline Nguyen with the University of California Student Association. We are proud to co sponsor. Also in support are our colleagues over at U Aspire.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you
- David Ramirez
Person
David Ramirez at the University of California Student Association in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Celine Dean
Person
Celine Arie Dean, President of the UCSA in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you
- Valeria Cantor-Mendez
Person
Valeria Cantor-Mendez, Vice Chair of UCSA in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Keely O'Brien
Person
Good afternoon Mr. Chair and Members Keely O'Brien with Western Center on Law and Poverty and strong support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Carol Gonzalez
Person
Hi, Carol Gonzalez on behalf of Long Beach City College in support, thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you
- Nika Maslin
Person
Nika Masin with the Messa Verde group on behalf of the Consumer Federation of California in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Dani Kando-Kaiser on behalf of the California Low Income Consumer Coalition in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Good afternoon. Cynthia Gomez, Deputy Director of State Policy and Advocacy with the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Irma Cobar
Person
Irma Yanetes Cobar with CHIRLA, I support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Mitch Steiger
Person
Mitch Steiger with CFT, a union of educators and classified professionals. Also in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Brian Portillo
Person
Brian Portillo, UC Davis student in support
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Kevin Sanchez
Person
Kevin Sanchez, UC Davis student in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Ruth Badha
Person
Ruth Badha. On behalf of Young Invincibles and Student Debt Relief Crisis Center proud co-sponsors, strong support of AB 1160.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Samantha Seng
Person
Samantha Seng with Next Gen California co-sponsors, strong support. Also on behalf of Consumer Reports co sponsoring in strong support and California competes in support. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in support please approach the microphone. Seeing no one else approaches the microphone, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 1160, please either come to the table or approach the microphone. I'm sorry. Sure. I will ask one of you to vacate for a moment at least.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, go ahead.
- Maggie White
Person
Thank you so much. Good afternoon. I'm Maggie White with the California State University. I am here in respectful opposition to AB 1160 and I'll be talking fast. I'd first like to thank Assemblymember Pacheco and the sponsors for continuing to work with us. We have had multiple productive interactions since the last hearing.
- Maggie White
Person
The author's office has shared that they are willing to continue working with us on our remaining concerns. I feel hopeful that we can get to a good place in the near future. I'd also like to sincerely thank Committee staff for their work on the Bill.
- Maggie White
Person
After the Senate Education Committee, we offered amendments that were compiled by all of the segments that are in opposition. The amendments would have removed our concerns with the Bill while still advancing some of the original bill's priorities. Amendments taken last week did touch on some issue areas for us, but unfortunately did not resolve them fully in our eyes.
- Maggie White
Person
This Bill touches on every internal and external method of debt collection available to the CSU to collect on past due debts. While we appreciate the total prohibition on tax offset being removed, we are still concerned with a two-year delay.
- Maggie White
Person
This method of collection doesn't hurt your credit score, and it provides $320,000 on average per campus per year. That's over $7 million system-wide annually. We also hope to see the prohibition on diploma withholding removed. I do understand this is being considered as a possibility.
- Maggie White
Person
I want to be clear that the diploma does not equal the degree the students completion of their degrees communicate on their transcript, which we cannot withhold.
- Maggie White
Person
But this is the last internal mechanism that we have available to us to incentivize a student to pay a past due debt since we can't place a hold on their class registration the next semester as they are graduating. On average, our campuses placed a hold on 316 diplomas at the end of this current academic year.
- Maggie White
Person
While we initially asked for a 90-day waiting period on sending debts to third-party collection rather than the 180 days in the Bill, we have since offered the idea of 120 days waiting period as a compromise.
- Maggie White
Person
Lastly, while we understand the intention of the one-time exemption for students to re-enroll or register for classes while holding a past-due debt, we do continue to have concerns with our ability to administer this.
- Maggie White
Person
We had instead offered the idea that all students with a past due debt be offered the option of a payment plan, which is a common practice of our University.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I assume you're going to ask us for a no vote.
- Maggie White
Person
And we are supportive of the communication methods in the Bill. Hopeful we can get to a good place. Thank you very much.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Nune Garipian
Person
All right, good afternoon. My name is Nuna Garapien and I'm here on behalf of the Community College League of California, representing the state's 116 community colleges.
- Nune Garipian
Person
I want to start off by also thanking the author, the staff of the Committee, and also the author staff for working really closely with us and making sure a lot of our concerns are heard. The one-time exemption in AB 1160 will be incredibly hard for California's community colleges to implement.
- Nune Garipian
Person
As open-access institutions, anyone can log in to cccapply.com right now, enroll in courses, and become a community college student. Due to the unique nature of our system, it is virtually impossible to track all 2 million community college students who may be eligible to receive an exemption and also make sure that each student is only using the one-time exemption once.
- Nune Garipian
Person
Due to the close proximity of our colleges, there is nothing in this Bill that would prevent a student from using a one-time exemption at one institution, driving 10 minutes to another institution, and also using another one-time exemption. This creates a prime environment for bad actors to take advantage of this very well-intentioned Bill.
- Nune Garipian
Person
And also, in the era of online learning and fraudulent students, this just increases the risk of bad actors. It would take significant financial and administrative resources to effectively implement the one-time exemption and ensure that colleges have the correct tracking placement tracking systems in place. Currently, each community college does things very differently.
- Nune Garipian
Person
There are 73 districts and each college has their own system, their own student information system. So this Bill would require them to revamp their student information system to consider this new exemption. And as the lowest funded segment of public higher education, we simply do not have the resources to that.
- Nune Garipian
Person
Lastly, we remain concerned about extending the timeline for colleges to regain funds from the tax offset program. For those reasons, we must respectfully oppose. But again, want to echo the comments from my colleague at the CSU that we are very, very appreciative of the conversation so far and look forward to future conversations. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others who are in opposition, please approach the microphone. Give us your name, your affiliation, your position.
- Jessica Duong
Person
Jessica Duong with the University of California in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Nicholas Romo
Person
Nick Romo with the Association of Independent Colleges and Universities opposing unless amended. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Nicette Short
Person
Nicette Short on behalf of Loma Linda University Health in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in opposition, seeing no one else approaching, let's bring it back to Committee questions. Senator Laird.
- John Laird
Legislator
Excuse me, a question of the author. And I know that you took an amendment already in regard to the higher education feedback about collecting information in a specific report. And they all sort of said conversations are continuing. Do you see a place to go here? Do you think that you can work to satisfy some of their concerns?
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
I am hopeful that I can satisfy some of their concerns already. We've satisfied a lot of their concerns. I'm hoping that we can get to a place where we satisfy all of their concerns. But we have been working hard on this Bill.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
From the Assembly side, we've taken amendments, and even here on the Senate side, we've taken numerous amendments as well. And we have an open-door policy in my office. And we look forward to continued conversations.
- John Laird
Legislator
Okay. Because we're near the end here, you know, and it really is about seeing if there's any place to go at this time. I'm willing to move the Bill and hope that those conversations continue.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Senator Laird, other questions? Yes, Senator Niello.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Thank you. Mr. Chair, two questions with regard to CSU. Did I hear you say that in a year there were 360 diplomas that were held as a result of that?
- Roger Niello
Legislator
316?
- Maggie White
Person
316, sir. At the point of time of, I believe, June. So at one campus.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
And how many total graduates would there have been at that point in time?
- Maggie White
Person
Unfortunately, I'm not sure, sir. Off the top of my head, it was an average taken from all of the responses. And to be clear, the diploma could still be granted later on of those 316 that were initially held, if the debt were paid or when the debt is paid.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Right. I'm just thinking that sounds like a rather small number, given what I suspect are the number of diplomas, otherwise. And do I also understand that even if the debt isn't paid, but the student has executed a payment agreement that is current at that time that the diploma would not be held?
- Maggie White
Person
Oh, correct, sir. So payment plans for us would not be past due. Institutional debt would be debt you're currently working toward paying and have an agreement with the school so there would not be withholding.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
So a question of the author with that option known, if a student refused to talk to the University about a repayment plan in order to receive the diploma. I guess I'm confused about that. It's almost like you would be encouraging the student to ignore the debt based upon the allowance of this Bill.
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
Actually, we're encouraging the students to pay their debt. We're also asking the colleges to work with students in order to allow them to pay the debt. And I don't know if my witnesses want to elaborate.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. Within the purview of this Bill, it's actually incentivized for students to enroll in a payment plan so that they can get right on track with their student debt and actually be able to get their diploma.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
The rationale behind trying to eliminate the prohibition or to eliminate the use of diploma holds is actually because it stands in the way of a student actually being able to get financially stable, getting into a job or beginning their career to actually repay that debt on the back end.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
I perfectly understand that. But if you're disallowing the University from holding the diploma in the absence of just executing an agreement to pay the debt. So I guess I'm a little confused about that.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
In other words, the student encouragement or otherwise, the student doesn't pay the debt, doesn't enter into an agreement to pay the debt, if this Bill passes, they can't hold a degree.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
Yeah.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
But they would still have two other very viable opportunities to collect on the debt. After 180 days, they can subject a student.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
I'm just. I'm confused as to why, given all the student, if the student doesn't have the resources to pay the debt, but realizes that going to the university and saying, I can't pay the debt, what can we do about this? And the university works out an agreement for them to pay, they get the diploma.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
If they don't do that, they get the diploma. Can you explain to me how that makes sense? Beg your pardon?
- Charlie Eaton
Person
The one thing I would add is that in practice, things don't go as smoothly in the communications between university financial aid offices and university business offices. I think you've heard, we've heard more perhaps than you over the course of this Bill that schools often don't know quite what they're doing to collect these debts.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
And the seamlessness of a payment plan just being offered to a student is not actually how it works in practice, I can tell you, because I chair the Financial Aid Committee of our academic Senate at UC Merced, and I know it does not go that smoothly.
- Charlie Eaton
Person
So what it's doing, it's putting the impetus on the institution to reach out to the student to provide a payment plan to pay off the debt, and in the meantime, not holding up the student's ability to improve their economic situation by receiving their diploma. I think that's the best that we can speak to your concerns.
- Aissa BaƱez
Person
But in response to the nearly year and a half of conversations that we've had with the segments, they have made a very good point about that being a very last tool, you know, tool of last resort for them in terms of.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Let me just ask, Senator Niello, did you want further response to your question?
- Roger Niello
Legislator
No, I think that's enough. I just ask the CSU witness to respond to the comment about maybe the process not being so easy.
- Maggie White
Person
I appreciate the opportunity to respond, sir, and I personally can't speak to the processes at that campus or at the UC. I can tell you that at the CSU, when a debt becomes passed. So, deadline has passed. We've already communicated with the student that this is the deadline this amount is due.
- Maggie White
Person
We've now passed that. We require all campuses to do at least three outreaches, and they have to be different methods, phone, text, email, snail mail, to get the student's attention. Most of our campuses elect to do five instead of three outreaches.
- Maggie White
Person
At that point, when we have not heard back, no one has reached out and said, yes, I would like to come talk to you about a payment plan, or, yes, I'll come in with a check to pay that $50. We then escalate to the external methods that are available to us.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Okay. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, Senator Roth.
- Richard Roth
Person
I'm just curious. Maybe you told me this. Of the 316 diplomas that were withheld, what was the average debt owed by the student to the CSU?
- Maggie White
Person
It's such a good question, sir, and I wish I knew. That was the hardest data point for us to gather.
- Maggie White
Person
And my folks let me know that we are not able to get that level of data that I would like to have just because of how our system is set up and how it's the point in time that we're able to capture the information. So I wish I knew.
- Maggie White
Person
And if I get that information, I'll share it with your staff.
- Richard Roth
Person
Well, what's in that particular group, then? What's the total debt owed to the CSU? For the 316 people who didn't get their diplomas?
- Maggie White
Person
I wish I knew. I'm sorry, sir. I don't have that specifically for diplomas. As one reference point, the average is $4.5 million per campus of debt that is accrued in one academic year.
- Richard Roth
Person
Well, you. Anybody who does debt collection, you must have a list of people that owe you money in terms of students, right?
- Maggie White
Person
I think I understand the question. Yes, we do have people working on this. The level of data I was able to get did not include the amount total specifically for the diploma hold. I can go back and ask for more information on that specific point.
- Richard Roth
Person
Right.
- Richard Roth
Person
I mean, I'm just sort of curious because, you know, if we're holding a diploma for somebody who's been one of your customers for four years, and let's just say they've paid tuition and whatever else they have to pay that you're assessing for three and a half of the years, and then they fall off the wagon, and they owe $1,500 to the California State University system, and we're holding a diploma.
- Richard Roth
Person
Whether or not they execute a payment plan, you know, we don't know the circumstance seems a little extreme, so. But on the other hand, if they never paid the tuition after the first semester or quarter, and you kept them on the rolls and gave them a ride down to the end of the road, maybe that would be.
- Richard Roth
Person
Might have a different opinion on it. So I'm just sort of curious. I wouldn't like the information, but through the Chair, when you get it, would be just fine.
- Maggie White
Person
Absolutely. I look forward to getting that.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Miss.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Roth. Other questions or comments? Is there a motion? Senator Laird has moved the Bill. Thank you very much. One comment is that in terms of, for example, jobs, typically it is the transcript or it is some indication of graduation that is the critical element. Is that right? And so you don't withhold that.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So if someone applies for a job and they say, I've graduated from XYZ School, then you will confirm that they're a graduate of the school. You just won't give them the piece of paper.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. And I would ask Assemblymember Pacheco, just to me, it doesn't seem like that we owe that piece of paper display on one's wall. We may owe them the acknowledgement that they've graduated. And if that diploma, that piece of paper that hangs on one's wall is the incentive to pay off their debt.
- Maggie White
Person
100% correct.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Maybe that's not such a bad idea for you to consider as this Bill moves to Appropriations. So. All right, having said that, would you like to close?
- Blanca Pacheco
Legislator
Yes. Respectfully, ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Okay. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 21, AB 1160. The motion is due pass, as amended, to Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call] 3-0.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
3-0. All right, we'll put that on call. All right, Assemblymember Alanis. So, first off, let me congratulate you on your ingenuity. How did you arrange a democratic caucus here so you could move from, say, 10:00 p.m. to whatever time it is now? 12:40. So that was quite interesting.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Good for you. All right, so here's what we're going to do, is Assemblymember Alanis is here, he's going to present his Bill. We will take whatever action we can on that Bill, and then if there's another author that appears, we will continue our operation. Otherwise, we will take a break.
- Juan Alanis
Legislator
So we'll be done real quick. All right, well, thank you again. I want to thank you guys and your staff for working with me in my office. I'll be accepting the Committee's amendments today. My office has been working hard to try to balance the opposition's concern.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Just so that folks watching are clear, this is file item number 67 AB 3080.
- Juan Alanis
Legislator
AB 3080, yes. Thank you. We have tried in good faith to work with both primary opposition and the initial supporters of the Bill to find a path forward. After a difficult path and a long road, I am pleased to report to this Committee that our primary opposition, the free speech coalition, has removed their opposition to the Bill. AB 3080 establishes a new framework and standard of accountability and pornographic websites, ensuring that they adopt additional methods of verifying the age of the users.
- Juan Alanis
Legislator
I have said on the record that I would continue to address privacy concerns in the Senate, and I believe the amendments taken will be more than accomplished those goals. I understand from the beginning that despite similar legislations being passed in other states, California would need its own model. I have worked to build consensus on this legislation. What is before you today reflects the hard work of my team. Multiple committees in both houses, and serious discussions between all.
- Juan Alanis
Legislator
There have been multiple attempts to pass similar legislations over the years. This is the first proposal that has won broad bipartisan support and has a real chance to reach the Governor's desk. I believe this Bill represents a positive step forward and will bring comprehensive and needed protections for kids. And at the end of the day, that is what is most important for us here, which is protecting our kids. I have my ledge director here in case we have any questions other than that, I have no witnesses for you to testify.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, witnesses in support of file item number 67, AB 3080, please approach the microphone. Seeing no witnesses approach the microphone. Now let's turn to opposition. If you're opposed to AB 3080, please approach. You may either come to the table or use the microphone.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
The floor is yours.
- Greg Gonzalez
Person
Thank you. Thank you. Chair Umberg and Members of the Committee, my name is Greg Gonzalez, and I am Legislative Counsel for the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, also known as FIRE. FIRE is a nonpartisan, nonprofit dedicated to protecting free speech rights for all Americans. Based on well established Supreme Court precedent, AB 3080 will violate the First Amendment and will not survive judicial review. The Supreme Court has already considered whether age verification provisions like those in AB 3080 can survive strict scrutiny.
- Greg Gonzalez
Person
In Ashcroft v. ACLU, the Supreme Court reviewed the Child Online Protection Act, a law that similarly required age verification of users to access adult content online. After lower courts blocked legislation, the Supreme Court upheld the injunction on grounds that the government was unlikely to be able to prove that the law could pass constitutional muster.
- Greg Gonzalez
Person
Specifically, the court found it unlikely that age verification is, quote, the least restricted means among available effective alternatives, end quote. To meet Congress's goal of preventing minors from accessing this content. This precedent would doom the age verification provision of AB 3080 when it faces judicial scrutiny. In fact, just on Friday, a federal judge halted Indiana's age verification law because of the Ashcroft decision. The legal and prudential problems with AB 3080 are not fixed by the amendment that allows websites to comply by including Metadata or response headers that identify the websites as sexually explicit.
- Greg Gonzalez
Person
A truly voluntary rating system undertaken by private actors does not pose a constitutional concern. But when the government ties a rating or tagging system to a government mandated requirement, the ratings are no longer voluntary. As such, the tagging system proposed here would fail First Amendment scrutiny. FIRE urges you to stand up for free speech and reject AB 3080. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Next witness.
- Chao Jun Liu
Person
Chair and Members of the Committee, my name is Chao Jun Liu. Here on behalf of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, we oppose AB 3080, which will require businesses to collect information to verify the age of anyone visiting a website deemed to offer sexually explicit content. We share the First Amendment concerns of many groups, including FIRE, have with the Bill.
- Chao Jun Liu
Person
Age verification harms everyone's ability to access content online and is especially likely to restrict access to legitimate content like LGBTQ+ education information, reproductive health information, and sexual education. At their core, age verification regimes are surveillance systems that threaten everyone's ability, everyone's privacy online. For these laws to work, they don't only confirm the ages of young people, they must confirm the ages of all website visitors.
- Chao Jun Liu
Person
The passage of AB 3080 would likely require adults to submit government issued IDs to attempt to determine their age, which creates a potentially lasting record of not only one's visit to a website, but their ID as well. The more data collected, the greater the chance such data gets into the hands of bad actors, are exposed in a data breach, or is demanded in a subpoena.
- Chao Jun Liu
Person
Just last week, it was found that a company that verifies identities for TikTok, Uber, and X exposed a set of administrative credentials online for over a year year, allowing anyone who used these credentials to have seen not just someone's name, date of birth and nationality, but even download a picture of the very document used in the verification.
- Chao Jun Liu
Person
Lastly, these systems will not work as intended. The French equivalent of the Federal Trade Commission found that these regimes only drive traffic away from regulated sites into unregulated and more dangerous online spaces. US based research is getting to find the same. For all these reasons, we respectfully urge the community to vote no on AB 30 today. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in opposition to AB 3080, please approach the microphone. Name, affiliation, position.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Yes. Hi, Tracy Rosenberg. On behalf of Oakland Privacy, we are still in opposition to the Bill in print. We appreciate the outreach from the author's office, and we will take a look at the most recent set of changes.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
Cynthia Valencia with the ACLU California action in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Dani Kando-Kaiser. On behalf of the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, Trans Youth Liberation, Transgender Law Center, and the National Center on Lesbian Rights in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty, thank you very much. All right, bring it back to the Committee for questions or comments. Senator Niello moves the Bill. All right, Senator Alanis, would you like to close?
- Juan Alanis
Legislator
I respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 67, AB 3080. The motion is due passed as amended. [Roll Call]. Four to zero.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Put that on call. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. All right, summary Member Berman, I think I saw you here. Okay, Senator. Member Berman, filing number 60, AB 2655.
- Marc Berman
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Umberg. And, Senator, I'd like to start by thanking the Committee consultant for his thorough analysis and for taking the time to work with my office while juggling the overwhelming workload for this hearing. I'm happy to take the amendments outlined in the analysis. Five years ago, I authored the first election deepfake Bill in the nation.
- Marc Berman
Legislator
Just a few short years later, the technology is better, cheaper, and more widely accessible. And we're seeing deepfakes used to undermine elections across the globe and here in America.
- Marc Berman
Legislator
This past month, actually, a study from Google's DeepMind AI division confirmed our fear finding that AI generated deepfakes that impersonate politicians and celebrities are the most popular ways to misuse AI. The report specifically found users deploy a range of tactics to distort the public's perception of political realities.
- Marc Berman
Legislator
That's why I'm authoring AB 2655 to protect election integrity by requiring large online platforms to, for a limited time, restrict the distribution of materially deceptive content intended to sway voters or undermine confidence in elections. For less harmful, yet still materially deceptive content, the Bill would require the platforms to label it as election disinformation.
- Marc Berman
Legislator
I've got a couple other comments, but I'll save them for later. Respectfully ask for aye vote and with me today are two fantastic witnesses on behalf of the sponsor cited who can go into a little more detail. All right, on the Bill, first fantastic witness. Go ahead.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
That's tough to live up to. Chair and Members, I'm Leora Gerrshenzon with cited the California Initiative for Technology and Democracy, a project of California common cause. AB 2655 seeks to protect the integrity of our elections from the worst of the worst deepfakes meant to defraud our electorate and undermine faith in our democracy.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
We believe that AB 2655 strikes the right balance by banning, for a strictly limited time around the elections, the online spread of the worst deepfakes intended to deceive voters and influence elections.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
Videos, images, and audios of candidates, election officials, and elected officials doing or saying something they didn't do or say that appear real and that are reasonably likely to change the election outcomes or falsely undermine confidence in the election.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
The Bill also requires that other fake online content that isn't quite as bad is labeled again for a limited time around the election. While this Bill can't stop all election misinformation, it will help remove some of the worst deepfakes from the ecosystem close to election times when voters are paying the most attention.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
Please help us protect our democracy. Thank you, alrighty.
- David Harris
Person
Thank you. Next fantastic witness. Thank you, chair Umberg. It's an honor to be here with you today. My name is David Harris and I'm a senior policy advisor to CITED. I also teach at UC Berkeley at the Haas School of Business about AI ethics and policy, and I've been an advisor to numerous international bodies.
- David Harris
Person
I've advised the European Union, the White House, NATO, all on AI policy. I'm here in strong support of AB 2655 because it takes action where tech companies will not.
- David Harris
Person
I previously worked for close to five years at Facebook and Meta where I was a research manager on the responsible AI team and also on the civic integrity team. In those companies, we have a problem, which is that the companies are not willing to do anything that is not legally required of them.
- David Harris
Person
Where deepfakes and elections and AI are concerned, this is difficult because what it means is that when certain companies step out and take responsibility for these problems, they get punished.
- David Harris
Person
They get punished by their shareholders and their constituents and they have to lay off the workers that are responsible for detecting deep fakes and getting rid of these kinds of efforts at election interference. An interesting thing that perhaps makes the AI industry unique is that many AI CEO's have themselves demanded more regulation of artificial intelligence.
- David Harris
Person
And that's why bills like AB 2655 that place clear rules about what AI can be used for and what social media platforms can and cannot display and distribute to their users are necessary.
- David Harris
Person
So I'm here to call on you to give the tech company CEO's exactly what they are asking for, which is better regulation of artificial intelligence where our democracy is concerned.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in support, please approach the microphone. Name, affiliation and position.
- Lifton Wilson
Person
Lifton Wilson on behalf of the city and County of San Francisco Board of Supervisors in support. Thank you. Thank you.
- Benjamin Cohen
Person
Benjamin Cohen of Mountain View in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support seeing no one else approached the microphone, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to filing number 60, AB 2655 you may either take a chair or come to the microphone. Go ahead, whoever would like to go first? Okay, first, fantastic witness in opposition.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Okay, perfect. Thank you, Mister chair and Members of the Committee, my name is Naomi Padrone, testifying on behalf of the Computer and Communications Industry Association in respectful opposition to AB 2655 CCIA and its Members take seriously the impact deceptive content may have on elections.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Many of our Members are working diligently to implement tools to better detect and label AI generated content. But the tools that are currently available are not always reliable or accurate, and while such technology is evolving, so are the means for bad actors to evade detection.
- Naomi Padron
Person
We appreciate the recent amendments as well as those referenced in the Committee analysis. However, we remain opposed to the Bill and are specifically concerned about the potential impacts on free speech, an issue that is also thoroughly outlined in the analysis.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Presumably, under AB 2655 the injunctive relief being sought would result in the blocking or labeling of reported content. This would be weaponized by competing parties that could simply disagree with the content or each other.
- Naomi Padron
Person
The Committee analysis notes that the Bill standards, quote, place a burden on platforms to establish facts potentially well outside of their bounds of knowing. Indeed, platforms are not privy to the intent and context for which a piece of content is used and could inadvertently overblock over a label.
- Naomi Padron
Person
This could result in user frustration and suppression of political speech. Political speech was at the core of why our first amendment was established. Responsibility for labeling AI generated election content and liability for deceptive content should rest with the entity that originally puts forth such material.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Additionally, we have concerns about the scope of the Bill while it establishes defined periods surrounding elections. AB 2655 does not speak specify which elections and where. This could result in platforms being required to block content almost constantly to ensure compliance. Thank you for your time and consideration of our comments. We respectfully request a no vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much. Not to be judgy. Second, fantastic witness in opposition.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Thank you. Tracy Rosenberg Oakland Privacy AB 2655 sets up social media companies who, with all due respect, have no constitutional law training, no training in collections law as judge, jury and executioner. They're relying on two pretty imprecise measures, public reports from other candidates or chaos actors or scanning tools. Neither works.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Deepfake detection services have been fooled into declaring images of kissing robots and giant neanderthals to be real when they're not. This is not what people want.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
A 2023 fire poll reported that 61% of Democrats, 62% of independents, and an even higher percentage of percentage of Republicans do not trust social media companies to moderate content on their platforms fairly. We believe that labeling synthetic content is useful and it helps out voters.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
But a broad censorship regime by the titans of tack is not the way that we should go, and we ask for your no vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in opposition to AB 2655-2655 thank you.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Ronak the Alami with Cal Chamber, also opposed. Thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Thank you. With the Electronic Frontier foundation in opposition. Thank you. Thank you.
- Bryant Miramontes
Person
Mister chair. Committee Members, Brian Marimontas of American Federation of State County Municipal Employees, apologies for being out of order. We are in support. In support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay, got it.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
Cynthia Valencia, legislative advocate with the ACLU. California action in opposition due to first Amendment concerns.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
I apologize also on behalf of my colleague@Tech.net. opposed. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, bring it back. Committee questions by Committee Members, questions by Senator Stern.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Yeah, thank you to the author. I'm sure this is somewhat of a reluctant effort in that wish we didn't have to be in this position to sort of push the envelope here and do what we have to do and step in, but our democracy is truly at risk.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
My question is, I don't trust the Supreme Court on these issues these days. And either from you or the experts, I want to see this in law. I want to see this executed.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
But does some of that, I forget the name of the cases, but some of the work in appellate courts, I think it's in some of the medicases, free speech. Is there ways we can prevent against that sort of falling into any traps that might occur out of some of that appellate review?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I think pursuant to a Florida law, if I recall correctly, recent cases.
- Marc Berman
Legislator
Yeah, yeah. Let me just say at a high level, we are very eager to do everything we can to make sure it's as narrowly tailored as possible. I think everyone agrees it's addressing a compelling government interest. So we check that box. Active litigation happening right now.
- Marc Berman
Legislator
I think the Supreme Court just sent those cases back to those appellate courts because they didn't think they applied the law correctly. But I'll defer to my witnesses, who might have a little more detail on that.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
There's nothing in those cases that actually would change this Bill. Those cases addressed for speech. And in fact, there was one issue on for speech that Committee amendments suggest, Committee amendments propose we take that would limit that. So that's the only similar issue.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
What it did say is that the court should actually consider how these First Amendment cases are applied and not just look at the face, how they are applied facially. So you have to look at them applied to the facts. Regardless, in all likelihood, this Bill would be litigated, because it's a question of how narrowly tailored are you?
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
We have a compelling state interest, which is protecting our democracy, and then is this narrowly tailored enough to serve that compelling interest? It is hard to believe, as most of the tech bills, that someone challenges them. But the point is to actually make some good law. And I don't know that it necessarily reaches the Supreme Court.
- Leora Gershenzon
Person
Some California cases reach the Supreme Court, most don't. But what we've done is try to make the strongest possible case under the First Amendment and under Section 230 for this Bill to move forward. And we think we've done that.
- Marc Berman
Legislator
And I want to reiterate for everybody, my office is wide open for suggestions for how to make it more narrowly tailored. I had a chat with my chief yesterday. So if folks have any ideas that don't undermine the Bill, then I'm very open to hearing those.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
And I would say not to force this work on our Attorney General, but I know that we're currently being challenged on a compelled political speech case for a climate disclosure law that the Us Chamber and the California Chamber are challenging California's ability under the First Amendment to require companies to disclose their greenhouse gas emissions, and calling that a sort of a form of compelled political speech.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
This is a new and very important area of law for the Attorney General to be able to defend our interests, whether it's in our public health and safety or the integrity of our elections. So I think it is going to take some heavy lifting within our Department of Justice.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So hopefully, before this hits the floor, too, just giving it that scrub and getting ourselves ready to prevail so we can actually get to an implementation stage. Anyhow, I'm happy to move the Bill. Really appreciate you just going deep on this, and hopefully we can get this into law and through our court system.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
With everything you said. Thank you. I think. Senator Stern, you just moved the Bill. Yes, I did. Yes, you did. All right, thank you very much. Would you like to close? I ask for your aye vote okay. Thank you. Madam Chief counsel, please call a roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File, item number 60 AB 2655. The motion is to pass, as amended, to appropriations. [Roll Call] That's two to one with Members missing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Two to one. We'll put that on call next. Assemblymember Lowenthal, two matters, and I'm going to turn over the chairmanship here for a moment to Senator Stern.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Welcome.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Thank you, Mister chair. I have two matters before the Committee today. First is, if it's okay, I'll go. I'll begin with AB 3048. Okay. Thank you, chair and Senators, let me start by accepting the amendments listed in the analysis and thank you and your staff for their help and patience.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
AB 3048 is a simple Bill AB 3048 is a simple Bill AB 3048 makes it easier for consumers to stay their privacy preferences from the start by requiring web browsers to allow a user to exercise their opt out rights at all businesses with which they interact online in a single step.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Currently, three browser companies already implement easy to find opt out preferences. They are Mozilla, firefox, duckduckgo, and brave. The other browser companies require either a third party add on or involve a laborious process that most people don't have the technical ability or patience to go through.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Currently, eight states, including California, require businesses to honor privacy signals, browser privacy signals as an opt out of sale of their personal information. Most consumers are unaware of the amount of data that is harvested and disclosed by companies without their knowledge that is used for leverage and influence that is used to leverage and influence their behaviors daily.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
If this Bill is passed, California would become the first state to require browser vendors to directly support these signals, which would have sweeping benefits. AB 3048 is sponsored by the California Privacy Protection Agency and supported by several privacy rights groups.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
In the end, 3048 will ensure that an individual's right to privacy is upheld by requiring web browsers to offer easy to find global opt out settings so that anyone can stop the sale of their information by all businesses if they so choose.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
My office and the sponsor are still working out some technical issues with some of the affected companies. My witnesses with me here today are Maureen Mahoney with the California Privacy Protection Agency, our sponsor, and Peter Snyder, Vice President of engineering at Brave.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Okay, great. We'll hear from lead witnesses. Two minutes each.
- Maureen Mahoney
Person
Chair, Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. My name is Maureen Mahoney. I'm the Deputy Director of Policy and legislation at the California Privacy Protection Agency. We implement and enforce the California Consumer Privacy act, and our mission is to protect California's consumer privacy.
- Maureen Mahoney
Person
And consistent with that mission, we are the proud sponsor of AB 304 A. So one of the most important aspects of the California Consumer Privacy act is this existing requirement that businesses receiving what's known as opt out preference signals honor them as an opt out of sale and sharing of their personal information.
- Maureen Mahoney
Person
So, for example, if you use a privacy focused browser like brave Duckduckgo or Firefox. It lets you send an opt out preference signal, in this case known as a global privacy control.
- Maureen Mahoney
Person
And if you're using one of these browsers, when you visit a website, say newyorktimes.com comma, that'll automatically get the signal that you want to opt out of the sale and sharing of your personal information. Under California law, New York Times would have to honor that.
- Maureen Mahoney
Person
So you can see it'll be much easier for consumers exercise their privacy preferences that way, rather than going to every site one by one and filling out a form and so on. So we're really encouraged by the progress that's been made so far.
- Maureen Mahoney
Person
But we're also concerned that major browser vendors like Google Chrome, Apple Safari, Microsoft Edge don't offer native support for these signals. Cispo will correct that require browsers to offer these signals. We think this is an important California privacy innovation, an important next step in implementing the CCPA in a way that works for consumers.
- Maureen Mahoney
Person
So for these reasons, we respectfully ask. Your iPhone thank you so much.
- Pete Snyder
Person
Thank you. Good afternoon, Mister Chairman and Members of the Committee. My name is Pete Snyder and I'm at Brave Software Brave Software makes a range of privacy focused software and Internet products. Brave strongly supports AB 3048 because Brave believes Californians have the right to use the web privately, regardless of what web browser Californians choose.
- Pete Snyder
Person
The brave browser includes an opt out preference signal called Global Privacy control and has done so for over three years. Global privacy controls is a necessary part of Beret's privacy focused Beret browsers include best in class privacy features, which protect users from most online privacy risks.
- Pete Snyder
Person
But there are other privacy risks that can't be solved with technical solutions alone, risks such as website selling and sharing the kinds of data users must provide when using a website. Global Privacy control allows brave to protect our users from these risks in a number of ways that technical solutions alone cannot.
- Pete Snyder
Person
Brave selected global privacy control as the apt out signal for our browsers for two reasons. First, implementing global privacy control in Brave was easy. It took two engineers just a day each to implement GPC across our products. And second, brave selected global privacy control because it is easy for websites to receive in process.
- Pete Snyder
Person
Because GPC is simple and is a simple and unambiguous signal of a user's preference. Sorry. Because GPC is a simple and unambiguous signal of a user's preference, we believe GPC provides the strongest possible protections for users. Thank you very much for your time and for hearing from me.
- Pete Snyder
Person
I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Thank you very much. We'll take now General witnesses support just name affiliation.
- Danielle Kando-Kaiser
Person
Good afternoon. Danny Kandokaiser on behalf of the Electronic Frontier foundation in support thank you.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
Cynthia Valencia, legislative advocate with the ACLU California Action in support.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Thanks. Tracy Rosenberg on behalf of Oakland Privacy in support thank you.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Any other witnesses in support? Seeing none, we'll turn now to opposition. Welcome. We can do two minutes if you'd prefer, or you can just state a position against.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Is that okay?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Yes, it is time for opposition witnesses, so two minutes each.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Thank you. Thank you, Members. Ronak Daylami with Cal Chamber in opposition to AB 3048 and thank you to the author. Fundamentally, we are concerned that the Bill prematurely mandates universal opt out preference signals and creates a significant compliance question for businesses operating across multiple jurisdictions.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Our Members support user choice, which is why browsers and devices already compete in offering clear, effective user controls over data uses, allowing users to choose Apps or extensions to manage their privacy preferences in a centralized manner.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
And with the passage of Prop 24, voters laid the groundwork for encouraging, but not requiring businesses to increasingly incorporate and recognize global opt out preference signals under the CCPA. Recognizing the complexity of implementing an opt out preference signal, the Proposition requires the agency to adopt regulations that must meet certain specifications.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
For example, they must be free of defaults that presuppose consumer intent, be clearly described and easy to use, and not conflict with other commonly used privacy settings or tools.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
While online devices and advertisers are capable of distinguishing data uses by jurisdiction, including for California users, devices and software that are offered globally to billions of users cannot be easily altered for California users alone. It's unclear to us what an opt out preference signal looks like when there are different states proposing different opt out requirements as well.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Are we supposed to have different controls for every state or jurisdiction, for every mechanism or consumers to be allowed to reverse their decision? Opt back in. There's many other questions. I will say. We do recognize that the MM in the analysis changes device to.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
I'm very in the terminology changes it to apologies, but we are taking a look at that mobile operating system. Sorry, we are taking a look at that and we are discussing with our Members. We are concerned still that the Bill includes rulemaking where the term would be further defined and have further requirements.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
So, it's difficult for us to assess it right now. So, we are opposed. But we do thank you.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Okay. Thank you. Other witnesses in opposition Dylan Hoffman on.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Behalf of Technet, respectfully opposed. Thank you.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Any others? Naomi Pichorn on behalf of the computer and Communications Industry Association respectfully opposed.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Okay, thank you so much. Seeing no others in opposition, we'll bring it back to the dais. Members questions, comments, motions? Motion from Senator Wilk. Thank you for bringing this forward. Trying to further the purposes of CCPA here. Ask you to close, if you please.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Respectfully ask for your aye vote. Thank you. Thanks.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
All right. The motion is do pass, as amended to appropriations motion from Senator Will.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Okay, thank you. This is file item 28, AB 3048. The motion is do pass, as amended, to Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call] That's three to zero with members missing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Very good. I will move on to your next Bill.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Chair and Senators, I would like to present AB 2481 Youth Social Media Protection act. And I want to start by accepting the amendments outlined in the analysis. Express immense gratitude for the thoughtful and detailed work and analysis made to strengthen this Bill without eroding its vital goals. To form a pipeline of collaboration between school officials and social media platforms to turn the tide in this current crisis in youth mental health.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
AB 2481 the Youth Social Media Protection act, will provide vital protection for our youth by requiring social media platforms to provide timely responses to school administrators and school mental health professionals who raise concern that a specific content may be in violation of a platform's terms and conditions and content policies further creates a verified reporter mechanism to authenticate trusted school leaders and licensed mental health professionals so that the platform can leverage the school professional's judgment in assessing the material risk to a child user's health and safety.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Such reports will trigger an expedited human review by the social media platform with a timely response. It is, quite simply the village approach to solving crises online for our most vulnerable, our children. So why is this Bill necessary? Like all of you, I want these companies to thrive.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And adding capital expenditure or operational expenses without accompanying revenue may not seem to make them more successful. I should take this time to acknowledge how hard social media companies are working to self regulate the mental health crisis of our youth, and I believe they do not want any unintended consequences from our online behavior.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
But self regulation is a failure, and all we need to do is look at the data. It's overwhelming. Young people are spending on average of 5 hours per day on social media. Suicide rates of young people in the United States has increased 62% since 2011.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
22% of current high school students have considered suicide 22% of high school students. CDC study found that nearly 30% of us teen girls seriously considered taking their own lives. Children and young people who were victim of cyberbullying were twice as more likely to engage in self harm and suicidal behaviors than their non victim peers.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
And the findings also indicated that perpetrators of cyberbullying were at increased risk for suicidal thoughts and behaviors. Finally, of course, surgeon General is now recommending warning labels on social media platforms for the adverse impacts on mental health to our youth. So this Bill is ultimately about life or death. How do we turn these numbers around?
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
If we can be responsible enough to acknowledge the mental health crisis in children is tied to the corresponding mass usage of social media by our youth, what are we affirmatively doing to turn this tide? Is it something that we're relying on social media companies to do on their own?
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Do they have the context to understand the complexities of a given bullying situation? Or if something is triggering a specific community, or as someone is precariously close to self harm? Do they understand gang signs? Do they understand when something is offensive to Native Americans or to the Jewish community? Does the data show that given their stated herculean efforts on being responsive to harmful content, that they're turning things around?
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
What this Bill is about is about creating a village to assist these companies, to understand context, to be alerted in the midst of a crisis, to lean on the input of local professionals all of us already entrust with our children's safety, California's educational leaders and licensed mental health professionals that regularly bear witness to several harms being inflicted upon our youth due to content on social media, while having no means to address such content and protect the children in their care.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
They want to, and they can help only if we enable them to do so. Now, the opposition is working this Bill very hard, and that's natural. This is groundbreaking legislation that the rest of the nation, and perhaps the rest of the world, will follow if this legislation passes. We have met with the opposition many times.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
If you read their letter or sit with them, they'll explain to you about the collective action problem, about setting a verified system up, how compliance is undefined and subjective, how the bill's enforcement provisions may fail to adequately achieve intended goals. They're trying to say it's not going to work, which is maddening, because of course it will work.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Their comments are subterfuge. What they're actually saying is that they don't want to spend the money on a human contact center because there's no revenue attached to it for them, only cost. That's been their main point this entire time. And how did we get there?
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Well, around 25 years ago, as the Internet exploded, we somehow managed to set our own expectations on customer service, thinking that if products are free, they shouldn't have to have contact centers. So paid products in tech like Apple or software companies, all of customer care, but social and content platforms typically don't. You can't call YouTube.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
You can't call Google or Instagram or TikTok or Snapchat. Despite the fact that we now know that nothing is actually free, they're making billions off of us. The longer we stay online, the more they make and billions off our children.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Despite the horrific mental health outcomes for youth online, can they afford human review when escalated by a school principal? Well, meta made $39 billion profit in 2023, a 69% increase from the year before. Alphabet made 42 billion, a 40% increase from the year before.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
A contact center to handle this would be De minimis, given their massive growth on the backs of our future generation. If they were solutions minded, and not simply in the way they could even share a contact center, the same way they share their lobbying efforts and divide costs based on a percentage of inbound contacts received.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
In the end, there's zero chance we would acquiesce to their demand for automated review, and only human once something has been escalated, the facts are overwhelming and we must insist on expedited human review when a child's life could be in danger.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
We've agreed to amendments to reduce the number of triggers that flag an expedited review narrowed who can be verified reporters to just principals and licensed mental health professionals, both of which can be verified online through publicly accessible databases maintained by the state.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
We've removed the reporting requirement, although I do recommend to industry affirmative collaboration on data with public officials to get to the root of the problem. And we finally, we remove the private right of action. My family alone, I've experienced way too many times.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
My children or their friends have been deeply affected by content that takes them to a dark place. I've worked with school officials who are at Wits end, who have to deal with this day in and day out with no partner in tech to work with.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
I've heard stories from parents who have had to move, they've had to change schools, or they've even lost children to eating disorders, addiction, and suicide. The fact is that pervasive harm is being inflicted on California's youth through social media. Yet social media platforms continue to fail in providing a minimally sufficient response time to the threats.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Either the social media platform provides no response, or the response comes far too late after significant harm is done. It's my belief they just can't do this alone. And who better help them than those we entrust? The safety of our children daily. My witness today is Marc Berkman, the CEO of the Organization for Social Media Safety.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you so much. Welcome, Mister Berkman, two minutes.
- Marc Berkman
Person
Thank you so much. Good afternoon, Committee. My name is Marc Berkman. I'm the CEO of the Organization for Social Media Safety. We are proud to sponsor AB 2481 the Youth Social Media Protection act. Social media is harming millions of California's children.
- Marc Berkman
Person
Cyberbullying, sex, extortion, drug trafficking, violence, and more tragically, the social media platforms are not taking sufficient steps to protect our children from these harms. 80% of people say that social media platforms are doing an only fair or poor job at addressing harassment. Only 14% of those who experienced a physical threat said the platform deleted the threatening content.
- Marc Berkman
Person
AB 2481 will enable our trusted child welfare experts, California's K12 principals and mental health professionals, to issue a report to a social media platform of content that poses a risk or a severe risk to a child, and then receive a human expedited review and response from the platform.
- Marc Berkman
Person
This would create a cost free, dependable statewide triage system preventing some of the severe social media related harm we see on a regular basis across California. We continue to see educators in tears over social media content representing an ongoing, imminent threat to the safety of their child charges.
- Marc Berkman
Person
One Pasadena based principal told us he regularly encounters social media distributed sexual rumors, hate based harassment and bullying. He said, when we tag them on the platform, they are not taken down, nor do I often even get a legitimate response from the party.
- Marc Berkman
Person
Tragically, these posts have, quote, led to students in the school having suicidal ideations or suicidal attempts. Giving our trusted professionals an opportunity to make an I urgent report of harm to social media platforms is a reasonable, balanced intervention that will save children's lives. To protect California's children, I respectfully request and aye vote. I also want to take the last 2 seconds to thank the Bill, author, Assemblymember Lowenthal, and Committee staff for their hard work on this Bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Thank you. Other witnesses in support? Now's the time. Name, group affiliation? Position? Okay, seeing none, witnesses in opposition. Come on forward. I think we're going to afford you two minutes shade over that for equal time. Welcome.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair, Members of the Committee, Dylan Hoffman, on behalf of Technet and we are respectfully opposed to AB 2481. And I just want to say at the outset that we do understand the grave importance of this issue. We fully agree with the intent of this Bill.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Our companies have a very long history of establishing industry best practices and creating new features and tools to provide parents with greater control over their child's social media experience. But we do understand that there's more work to be done and want to be part of that solution.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
We're opposed to AB 2481 as it is currently in print. We acknowledge the amendments noted in the analysis that they may touch on some of our main concerns, but without seeing the language, can't comment directly to what extent they will.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
I want to flag a couple of issues, though, with this Bill as we continue to see it moving forward. First, we continue to see the verified reporter provision as problematic. The removal of school counselors is an improvement, but the entire structure is problematic from our perspective. We don't have a clear idea of how we'd effectively track the status of potentially tens of thousands of verified reporters in the state.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
Further, the Bill limits us to verifying these individuals every two years, and we don't know how we're supposed to know if there's still a principal, if they've been let go by a district, or if a licensed mental health professional still holds that license. Second, the scope of social media threats in the Bill is too expansive.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
To the extent that everything is prioritized, nothing is prioritized. And we note that the amendments to this portion of the Bill seek to narrow that, and we'll review that language when it's available. Third, we think the timeframes need some work.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
The Bill currently requires platforms to decide whether content violates our terms or conditions within 72 hours or 24 if the risk is severe. The Legislature last year adopted a 30-day standard for making the same determination for child sexual abuse material in AB 1394 by Assemblymember Wicks last year.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
If the Legislature wants to elevate all of these types of social media threats, that's a conversation that we're willing to engage in. But just want to note that we do expect a substantially higher volume of some of these categories of content than we do for CCM.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
And there is an unintended consequence of sort of identifying where the priorities and investments should lay. So I want to be very clear, we're not opposed to carefully drafted legislation on the subject that can be effectively implemented, avoids federal preemption issues and constitutional problems.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
And to that end, we have the author amendments to a version of this Bill that would create a standardized reporting mechanism for all potentially violative content of our terms and services. We're talking about that and many other ideas. But I want to flag that our coalition and our members are making a good faith effort to be constructive.
- Dylan Hoffman
Person
I want to thank the author, his staff, the Committee staff as well for meeting with us to hear our concerns about this Bill and talk to us about potential pathways to working together. Great. Thank you. Thank you so much. Others in opposition.
- Dawn Sanders-Koepke
Person
Thank you. Dawn Koepke. On behalf of the computer and Communications Industry Association, also in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay, thanks.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Ronak Daylami, on behalf of Cal Chamber opposed. Thank you.
- Ayo Lui
Person
Thank you. Ayo Lui. On behalf of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Seeing no others in opposition, we'll take it back to the dais. Members questions comments or Member question comments. Yes, Mister Vice Chair.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Yes. Yeah, I'd like to make a comment. So I'm supporting the Bill today, and I talked about what happened in my junior high when I met with him after we had a shooting at the high school.
- Scott Wilk
Person
But you said something today that I think is probably not, you're being generous, but probably not correct, where he said, these companies are trying to do the best job they can. And I'm looking at him, but it applies to you, I guess. I don't think they are. I don't know if you ever saw that movie Brexit.
- Scott Wilk
Person
It was produced by BBC. You can get it on HBO demand. And in there, the political consultants are talking with tech guys and they're saying Facebook knows when you're going to have an affair before you do because they have these algorithms.
- Scott Wilk
Person
So I think this could actually even be more proactive than it is in terms of protecting kids. And they're not doing it. And they're not doing it because they want to make money and so strongly support your Bill and be supporting it today.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. I'll add on my gratitude. We've been at this issue together. Dads united. Somewhat disappointed about the narrowing of the scope, I will say. But I do look forward to the tech industry's response now that some of these, that not everything is covered and it's going to be much more tailored and specific, the delayed implementation to get our heads around it, the licensed professionals and principals.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
The limitation there, I think the Bill should be in a position that you all can come to get to. Yes, because I can imagine it's an uncomfortable position to be opposing very common sense legislation like this. So really looking to you all to dig in deep and carefully review these very aggressive but I guess necessary amendments, and I'll allow you to close.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
Thank you, Senators, for your very thoughtful comments. I first want to say how proud I am to have bipartisan and support on this issue, as it should be, as most issues in this state should be. And it's just comforting when people come together to do the right thing.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
I want to commend the opposition for always coming in and, you know, having to say words on very, very tough bills for them. Dylan made comment in particular about the industry having a long history of best practices. And I'm quite certain that there are people inside these organizations that want to do more for our youth.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
But this long history of best practices is not yielding the results that we need. The data is showing us that it's getting worse, not better. We have to change things. We have to, or else the outcomes are going to continue to get worse and worse.
- Josh Lowenthal
Legislator
I think that there, you know, in my dialogue with school officials, they're at Wit's end, and they need this. So we need to support them as well as they try and provide a foundation of stability for our youth. And this is a key component of this. With that, respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So just stay for the record. I'd love to be added as co author when the time permits. Do we have a motion? Yes, motion from Senator Wilk. Motion is do pass is amended to Appropriations.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Not. No, no, it's do pass as amended.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Do pass as amended.
- Committee Secretary
Person
That's it.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
That's it. Please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Thank you. This is file item 27. The motion is do pass as amended. It's AB 2481. [Roll Call] That's two to zero with Members missing. You're going to leave it open?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Very good looking. To very patient, Mister Lowenthal. Deferring to Mister Maienschein. Welcome, Mister Maienschein. Thank you. Thank you for your. I can see that. Please leave it to your discretion. Are you 26? Yeah. Let's just do 2016 for us. 2016 and 2159.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
I do, Mr. Chair, and let me. If it's okay with the chair. We'll start with AB 2016.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Very well, please proceed.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair and members, today we face a critical issue affecting many low and middle income families in California. The rapid escalation of home values.
- Maeve Elise Brown
Person
We also, at our office, we provide free legal services statewide and focus on household debt and credit issues. And we see a lot of surviving heirs being targeted for probate advance loans and having other people knock on the door door and trying to get them to sign over a portion of their future interest in the property.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
This surge in property prices has resulted in estates that include modest family homes no longer qualifying for an expedited probate process. To address this challenge and protect the intergenerational transfer of wealth for our communities, I'm proud to present AB 2016.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
This bill aims to update the value of estates eligible for the state's expedited small estate probate process by increasing the value, the small estate value, to $750,000 AB 2016 would empower far more low and middle income heirs to utilize the expedited process when inheriting the family home.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
This would not only ensure smoother transitions, but also save precious court resources and reduce opportunities for abuse during probate proceedings. Furthermore, it would prevent heirs from being caught up in California's lengthy probate process, especially when trying to establish title to the family home after the passing of a loved one.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
In essence, this bill is about preserving intergenerational wealth and providing families with the support they need during challenging times. Thank you and I respectfully request, and aye vote with me here to testify and support is Maeve Elise Brown from Housing and Economic Rights Advocates.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much.
- Maeve Elise Brown
Person
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.
- Maeve Elise Brown
Person
I am here in the support of this bill, having seen during the years of the foreclosure crisis, when many, many families were set to inherit the family home and were trapped because title was not decided upon and they could not obtain a loan modification until title had been determined.
- Maeve Elise Brown
Person
And this bill could go a long way towards alleviating future problems. As people continue to struggle and our population is aging, there are a lot more properties that are going to pass in these coming years, especially for the adult children, because many surviving spouses can still utilize an expedited process, but the kids cannot.
- Maeve Elise Brown
Person
And so they're hanging out there, losing the family home even before they've been able to really, actually inherit. So thank you so much for your consideration. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Next witness, please. No further witnesses. All right, all those in support of AB 2016, please come forward. Seeing no one else coming forward, opposition to AB 2016, please come forward, either to the microphone or the chair. And I apologize for the heat in this room.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I realize it's getting to be a place where it's almost unconscionable, but go ahead.
- Albert Nicora
Person
Thank you, Mister Chairman. My name is Albert Nicora, I'm a California probate referee and a longtime attorney here in California. And I represent the California Probate Referees Association. And we unanimously oppose this. Not because it affects us. We're still going to be making these appraisals under this Bill.
- Albert Nicora
Person
But because we have been assigned to all these estates, and it's very rare that your opposition is going to be for the same reasons that the proponents of this bill are promoting it. We see firsthand the foreclosure problems. We see firsthand the onerous lending problems.
- Albert Nicora
Person
We see firsthand the difficulties with going back and forth and through the process. And the probate system for these people who have a limited wealth, and most of them over 50% that we estimate have their total wealth tied up into their residence.
- Albert Nicora
Person
And this is what the probate system is entirely for, to make sure that the wealth of this family is going to be put back into the program. There is no protection for the payment of unpaid taxes to the State of California.
- Albert Nicora
Person
There's no protection for the obligations to the Department of Health Care Services if healthcare services were given. There's no protection for monies that are due under the Victims Compensation Act, all of which is provided for in the probate code.
- Albert Nicora
Person
We think that this is a band aid which is going to cause a tremendous increase in litigation and family problems and do exactly the opposite for a significant number of families that the proponents of this bill promote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in opposition, please approach the microphone. Seeing no one else approached the microphone, let us now turn back to the committee member. Do you have any questions? Senator Wilk?
- Scott Wilk
Person
I just throw it out to the, the author if you want to respond to what was just shared.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Yeah. Thank you very much. We'll continue to work. We've had productive conversations on this bill. We'll continue to do that over the recess. Certainly appreciate their feedback. You know, we don't want to obviously have adverse impacts to what this is intended.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
I think it's clear, though, at its core, you know, the current estate value is $184,000 for a home. I don't think any of us know where you could pay in California $184,000 for a home. Looking at the two of you up there, I don't think you have a single home in your district. I do.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Okay, well, you might have one then. That's great for 184,000, but for most people, the reason we came to the figure of $750,000 is, according to Zillow, just using that as sort of a clearinghouse. That's the average price of a home.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
So we do have to acknowledge that obviously housing has gone up from a time where you could buy a home from 184 to now where even 750 in a lot of sense, I think a lot of people would say that's still a little bit low, but this at least increases that and gives more opportunity for people as they pass it down to their children to create that intergenerational wealth that I think so many of us want to see happen.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
And I'll use that as my close, if that's good, and respectfully request an aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Yes. Senator Wilk moves the bill. All right. Would you like to close?
- Brian Maienschein
Person
I'm sorry. I apologize. I was trying to streamline the meeting.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
For you, streamlined it. We're all about time here. All right, all right, all right, all right. There's been a motion by Senator Wilk. Madam chief counsel, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 25 AB 2016. The motion is do pass umbergous. [Roll Call] That's two to zero with members missing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We'll put that on call. All right. Assemblymember Maienschein, file number 26, AB 2159.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair and members, let me start by accepting the committee amendments outlined in the analysis. AB 2159 authorized common interest developments, or CIDs, to use an electronic voting system for specific Association businesses, board elections, and approving governing documents.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
The Davis Sterling act, which governs CIDs, outlines the rights and duties of associations and their members, including the process currently conducted through a paper and mail based system similar to California's secret ballot process.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Electronic voting can address voter apathy, which is obviously a very significant issue in current Association elections, as many associations struggle to even obtain a quorum. AB 2159 is permissive, giving associations the option to adopt electronic voting.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
The process will be part of the rule adoption process, which requires notifying members before taking a vote and providing an opportunity for members to overturn the board's decision if they disagree. Aside from allowing electronic ballots, AB 2159 does not change existing election procedures outlined in law.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
It includes multiple notifications to members on how to opt out, including in the rules during the election process and annually through the member notice. electronic voting in association elections is utilized in 27 different states and is a proven technology. This bill aims to increase homeowner participation while also reducing costs. I respectfully request an aye vote.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
And with me today to testify in support is Louis Brown, representing the Community Associations Institute.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. members of the committee, Louis Brown here today on behalf of the Community Associations Institute. This committee is very familiar with the concerns that we've raised over the years with voter apathy in HOA elections. And so we very much appreciate Mister Maienschein authoring this bill for us today.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
There was a similar bill introduced back in 2013, and what you can see if you compare the 2013 legislation to what we have today are the things that we've learned over those years. One, 27 states have adopted this since that time.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
We've also picked and learned from those other states to provide significant processes in here to protect individuals, protect homeowners. In the Assembly, we actually had some of the election companies opposing this bill.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
They are now in support of the bill because we've worked with them to further develop the process to ensure that this works within the existing HOA election process, but then also provides them what they need in order to conduct these elections and again, protect the privacy of the HOA members. Finally, it is permissive.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
This is just authorizing an Association to do so if they want to enter into a contract with an inspector of elections to make this happen, to provide efficiency, cost effectiveness, and hopefully, at the end of the day, increase voter participation with that. Here, to answer any other questions and ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Those in support.
- Jennifer Wada
Person
The California Association of Community Managers. The reality is that voter participation is dismal in these communities, and this bill would help help with that. So we are in strong support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, others in support, please approach the microphone. Now let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed, please either come to the table or come to the microphone. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Floor is yours.
- Ignacio Hernandez
Person
Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members. Ignacio Hernandez on behalf of Verified Voting, which is, we are in opposition as a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization comprised primarily of computer scientists and data experts and technology experts that regularly consult with Federal Government as well as Secretary of State here in California.
- Ignacio Hernandez
Person
We are extremely concerned with this bill because even though it states that ballots must be secret and voting must be secret, there is no technology that has been approved for use in California that does, in fact, ensure that ballots are secret. The technology has not been identified, confirmed, or certified in California.
- Ignacio Hernandez
Person
So what you have here is a bill that says this technology and this voting will be secret, but there is not the technology that exists. There's also no regulatory oversight of the companies that will be operating the technology. There's no testing of the technology before it's used to ensure that secrecy is in fact attainable.
- Ignacio Hernandez
Person
And so until that happens, we have a bill that will authorize the use of something that doesn't exist without any precautions. So even if somebody opts in or doesn't opt out, however it's written now with the notice, which we appreciate the additional notice, they're opting into a technology that cannot be guaranteed to protect them.
- Ignacio Hernandez
Person
And keep in mind, HOAs have the power, they're quasi governmental. They have the power to impose fines, impose liens, and also initiate foreclosures. And I believe we have about 15 million people that are subject to HOA, as in California. So it's a significant concern for us.
- Ignacio Hernandez
Person
And for those reasons, we're opposed and happy to address any questions going forward.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in opposition.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Tom Suhr will be presenting testimony.
- Tom Suhr
Person
Thank you, Mister Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Tom Suhr. I'm a member of the Legislative Committee of the Center for California Homeowner Association Law. I'm a retired Superior Court Commissioner who has heard many HOA cases on my small claims calendars since we testified in the Assembly.
- Tom Suhr
Person
By pointing out how this bill renders judicial review of an Internet election impossible in small claims court amendments have been taken in the Senate. Here now introduce some very alarming new features that are guaranteed to flat out deny some homeowners the ability to vote and therefore the right to vote.
- Tom Suhr
Person
This bill now no longer guarantees a homeowner the right to opt out of the electronic voting by demanding a paper ballot. The provision of this opt out choice is now permissive and no longer mandatory.
- Tom Suhr
Person
Secondly, if now explicitly provides that an election may be conducted entirely by either paper ballot or electronic ballot, it places on the inspector of an elections the duty to ensure compliance with a long list of technical requirements for any electronic voting system.
- Tom Suhr
Person
This enormously expands the qualifications needed to perform the inspector of election duties into the realm of cybersecurity and at a level that a panel of experts who has studied this issue for over a year could not achieve. And finally, it introduces the term electronic secret ballot.
- Tom Suhr
Person
But calling it secret does not render it so when the overwhelming opinion of experts is that it is impossible, given the current state of technology, to ensure secrecy of a ballot that is returned electronically. I refer you to. Well, actually, he's here.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. I assume you urge an aye vote. Excuse me? Strike that. No vote, please. Right. Okay. Thank you. All right. Others in opposition, please give us your name, your affiliation, your position. Go ahead. You can approach the microphone.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Mic right there, sir. Microphone right there.
- C.T. Weber
Person
My name is C.T. Weber, Sacramento, California, Vice Chair of the California Alliance for Retired Americans in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Ashley Tongaros
Person
Ashley Tongaros and I'm a homeowner in an HOA and a former board Member, and here in Sacramento, and I'm very opposed.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Elizabeth Tafoya
Person
My name is Elizabeth Tafoya and I am a senior and I live in an HOA and I urge the committee to vote no.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Miss Murray, did you want to weigh in?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yes. Senator Umberg, speaking for the California Alliance for Retired Americans. About 2 million seniors live in common interest. Developments in California. And Cara weighs in with a no vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in opposition. Seeing no one else approaches the microphone, let's bring it back to committee. Senator Wilk, you have a question?
- Scott Wilk
Person
I have a question and a comment. So I'll just throw it back to you to respond to some of the concerns shared by the opposition.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Yeah, thank you very much, Senator Wilk. You know, first off, just to bring it back to what this bill is, we're talking about HOA elections. That's what's at issue here.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Not afraid of hacking.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Yeah, I don't think that's a, you know, a high risk environment when we're talking about HOA elections and the intent behind it is to increase voting. You know, and as a reminder, this legislature has made it a policy to try to increase voting. We've done that on a whole number of things, including, for example, mail ballots.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
So, you know, that's been a longstanding policy. How do you take. How do you take something wherever? You know, many of them can't even get a quorum. Many of them have one or two people voting. One or two. Certainly something that would not be representative. And so this will do that.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
And I would remind people, you know, this is permissive. 27 other states are doing it. So it's not particularly revolutionary. And there's an opt out provision too. So, you know, I believe that that more than addresses the issues that we're faced with, with this bill.
- Scott Wilk
Person
So with the opt out, that means you would get a paper ballot.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Yeah.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay. Because I have two HOAs. One, there's 45 of us back east, and the other one here in California, there's 5000 homes. Half of them are snowbirds. And so I'm sure voting electronically would be much easier for them. But it's also senior community. I'm sure some of them are not comfortable doing that.
- Scott Wilk
Person
But if you could opt out, I think this will increase voter participation.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
And two, you raise a good point there too is as this progresses, as newer generations come on, who are more comfortable with that?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Digital natives coming up.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Correct. As our kids aged. Right, but your kids will be voting electronically. Yeah.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Brian Maienschein
Person
The house that I bought, well, the earlier bill will help you pass it down to them. Mister Wilk. So I'm here. I'm here for the Wilk family today.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
As long as that applies, he's moving to America. I don't know if you've heard that, but yes. All right, so, Senator Wilk. I'll move the bill. Senator Wilk has moved the bill. Would you like to close?
- Brian Maienschein
Person
Thank you very much. Mister chair and members respectfully request an aye vote.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item number 26, AB 2159. The motion is to pass as amended. [Roll Call] That's two to zero, members missing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, Madam Chief counsel, please call the roll
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Two to zero. Gonna put that on call. All right. I think I saw Assemblymember Muratsuchi here? Oh, I did. There he is. Okay. Assemblymember Muratsuchi, file number 23 AB 1825.
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
Thank you very much, Mister chair and Senators, I am proud to present Assembly Bill 1825, the California Freedom to read act. We all know that our public libraries are a cornerstone of our democracy. Unfortunately, there's been a nationwide movement to attack our freedom to read.
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
According to the American Library Association, there's been over a 60% increase in the number of attempted book bans in our public libraries. We also know that more than 47% of those titles being targeted are primarily those reflecting the voices and life experiences of our LGBTQ and our communities of color.
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
This is a bill that was written by librarians and first amendment lawyers with me here today to testify in support of the measure is. I'm looking at my notes here. Christina Di Caro represented the California Library Association and Cynthia Valencia with the ACLU California.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Floor is yours.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
Thank you. Good afternoon, Mister Chairman and members. I'm Christina Di Caro, lobbyist for the California Library Association in support of AB 1825. At their core, library directors and staff believe in protecting intellectual freedom and the right of California library patrons to have access to a diverse body of materials that educate, inspire, inform, and enlighten.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
Library professionals are trained in reviewing and securing materials that suit the need of communities. Public libraries do not support the banning of books. What they do support is having informed community discussions regarding materials in their library.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
Many libraries have policies that allow members of the community to engage and raise concerns with certain materials, and having those clear and detailed policies in place in every public library is essential. This bill will require libraries to submit those policies to the state librarian, who can provide technical assistance if needed.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
CLA wants to thank Assemblymember Muratsuchi and his Chief of Staff for the productive negotiations that have been part, that we have been a part of throughout this session and for accepting those amendments that were very important to CLA. We greatly appreciated his thoughtful regard of the work of the library community as he continued to shape the bill.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
And I'd like to take my final seconds to thank the outstanding work of your consultant, Allison Whit Meredith. She looked at the bill with such a careful eye, matching its intent to pass case law and noting where the libraries might be left inadvertently protected.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
She recommended additional amendments that are in your packet there that were things that, frankly, CLA would not have caught on our own. So thank you very much for the excellent work, and to you, Mister chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. And speaking of those excellent amendments, do you accept them? Okay. Thank you. I concur in your thoughts concerning Miss Meredith. All right, go ahead.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
Good afternoon, chair and committee members. My name is Cynthia Valencia. I am a legislative advocate with ACLU California Action in support of AB 1825, the California Freedom to Read Act.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
So public libraries are a cornerstone of our community, ensuring that people, regardless of age, income, education, race, or geographic location, have free and open access to information so they can meaningfully engage in civic life.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
They are also bound by the First Amendment, and we must protect the fundamental right of access to diverse and inclusive information at our public library. So thank you, Assembly Member Muratsuchi, for introducing this legislation at this critical time. Over the past year, more than 3000 books have been banned in libraries across the United States.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
And these books are disproportionately feature stories about lgbtq people, people of color, and historically marginalized communities. Book bans at this effect are not only discriminatory, they are a violation of people's First Amendment right. Politically motivated censorship has no place in our state. In California, we have seen several municipalities pass legislation to censor books.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
In Fresno county, they introduced a resolution that is an invasive and unconstitutional form of censorship that targets books based on seemingly disfavored speech, namely references to bodily autonomy and gender identity.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
In the City of Huntington Beach, they introduced a resolution which would impose an unconstitutional ban or an unconstitutional censorship regime on people's right to access library books and materials protected by the First Amendment.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
I had been a resident of Huntington Beach for over 13 years, and I had been a public library user of the Huntington Beach Public Library and Orange County Public Library system since I was a young girl.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
All of us who are users of public libraries, and especially young people, have a right not just to express themselves, but to learn from a diverse range of materials, including library books, by and about LGBTQ and BIPOC communities. So we commend librarians and communities who have rejected these censorship campaigns.
- Cynthia Valencia
Person
So we must protect fundamental First Amendment right of access to diverse and inclusive information. For these reasons, we urge you to vote yes on AB 1825.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Artie. Thank you very much. All right, others in support of AB 1825, please approach the microphone.
- Greg Pulse
Person
Greg Pulse for Equality California in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Others in support.
- Tracy Rizberg
Person
Tracy Rizberg on behalf of Oakland Privacy, in support. We run. We ran out of time to submit a letter, but we are in support of the bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support.
- Ethan Eagler
Person
Ethan Eagler, on behalf of the City of Rancho Cucamonga, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no one else coming forward with the microphone in support, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 1825, please come forward. Seeing no one coming forward, let's bring it back to the Committee. Questions?
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Thank you, Mister chair. The bill indicates a process for allowing people to request reconsideration of materials that might have been excluded. Is there any allowance for local community members to suggest the isolation of some material?
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
Yes. I'd like to ask Miss Di Caro to give the librarian's perspective where this bill is focused on the central role of librarians. I didn't hear the first part of what you said. Oh, I would like to turn it over to Miss Di Caro, representing the California Librarians Association.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
So, Senator, you're asking specifically an item that maybe somebody finds distasteful like to move it into a different section. Is that the question you're asking?
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Well, let me be more specific. The frustrating thing that I've had about this discussion about book banning is that it never, except when some others bring it up, includes a discussion of age appropriateness. And I don't see anything in here that deals with age appropriateness or the ability to exclude a book.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Now, maybe you'd call that book banning, right? Excluding a book based upon the age that we'll be accessing that library or that area of the library.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
And so people, if the library doesn't choose to accommodate age appropriateness, where is the ability for people in the community to suggest that that take into account for excluding the book, which many people these days is calling book banning?
- Roger Niello
Legislator
I would say banning books for five years old, the five year olds is not book banning, but that seems to be where the argument has been dominated lately. That's my whole problem with this legislation.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
Thank you, Senator. You know, we are understanding that there is quite a trend afoot for regulating age appropriate materials. We're starting to see that more and more on the national level and some of the monitoring of this. Most libraries do have dedicated children teens sections.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
Now, is it appropriate for the parents to walk over to a different section and look at some materials with their children? As the analysis was great to point out, the libraries do not stand in the place of parents when the children are using the library. This is something that they should do together as a collaborative nature.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
But there does tend to be quite a recognition that there should be a children's, a teens and an other section. Not in every library. Certainly there are libraries that don't, don't sequester certain materials in that way. But under the process here, you could fill out a form. I have the Ontario library's policy, for example.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
You could fill out a form and say, I would like to have a reconsideration of the placement of this item in the library.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
And then they would convene one library supervisor to be appointed by the library Director, who acts as a facilitator, two library staff members to be selected by the library supervisor, the President of the Ontario City Library Board of trustees, the Vice President, etcetera.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
And this review committee would have to meet within one week after formation to determine a plan. And so then they would formulate their plan, bring it up to the library director's level. The library director needed to go higher than that. They could go higher than that. So there is a, an attempt for a local.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
We want to foster those discussions. We don't want to say this is the rule of the library and this is the way it's going to be, period. We want those local discussions to occur.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Then why even get involved from an on high perspective? Why don't we just leave this up to local control?
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
Senator, if I may, I want to make it absolutely clear. In fact, you know, one of my first questions when I met with the ACLU and the American Library Association was, you know, as a parent, you know, am I going to be able to make sure that books are being displayed, not only provided in the library, but displayed in an age appropriate manner?
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
And I was assured that absolutely librarians are professionals trained to make those determinations, rather than a political body that may be responding to the sentiments in the community.
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
But this bill specifically, it is allowing for that local control that you're asking about by requiring every public library jurisdiction to adopt this collection development policy and the collection development policy.
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
As you can see in the bill, one of the requirements of this policy is to establish a process for community members to share their concerns regarding library materials and to request library materials be reconsidered for inclusion. That formal process would also include the opportunity for community members to be heard on the considerations of age appropriateness.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Still makes more sense to me to leave this up entirely to local control.
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
What we're trying to prohibit is the will of any vocal minority or majority of a community to call for and ban book titles that don't have the thoughtful consideration that a professionally trained librarian would be able to do.
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
And so it is maintaining the local control, but setting guardrails, making sure that it's not done in a discriminatory manner, and it's done through this locally adopted collection development policy. I think it's providing for that local control that you're looking for but with the guardrails.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I'm getting a sense you're not going to make the motion to move the bills.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Just one last point.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
I would suggest that the views of both people in the community, as well as likely the librarian, is going to be quite different in Susanville than it's going to be in San Francisco, and this is kind of prescribing a blanket approach to it that would apply to both.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Other questions? Comments? Seeing none. Is there a motion? I don't hear a motion. This is at the appropriate time. We'll raise this again, and we'll see if there's a motion. All right. Would you like to close?
- Al Muratsuchi
Legislator
Thank you very much. I respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, next we turn to Assemblymember McKinnor. Assembly Member McKinnor, the floor is yours.
- Tina McKinnor
Legislator
Thank you. Good afternoon, Mister Chair and Senators. AB 2780 will require charter bus carriers to notify local governments at least 24 hours before transporting vulnerable passengers from out of state to a California city, county, or other jurisdictions.
- Tina McKinnor
Legislator
Senators, since April 2022, we have seen political leaders from a number of southern states attempt to politicize the nation's current immigration crisis by busing and dumping lawful asylum seekers in cities across California. This is the worst kind of politics imaginable. Right wing politicians trafficking vulnerable families across state lines to try to score political points with MAGA extremists.
- Tina McKinnor
Legislator
It's disgusting, it's shameful, and it's just wrong. The United States has a proud history of compassionately welcoming legal asylum seekers from around the world. And we should not forget that in this difficult national moment, we find ourselves in cities, counties, and nonprofit organizations have organized as best as they can in the past several years to triage these legal asylum seekers and provide them with temporary humane care, including food, clothing, and shelter.
- Tina McKinnor
Legislator
What is missing is knowing when these legal asylum seekers will arrive in California City so that local governments and nonprofit organizations can help prevent potential human labor or sex trafficking of these individuals and to better coordinate humanitarian aid to these families in need.
- Tina McKinnor
Legislator
AB 2780 closes an important gap by requiring charter bus carriers to provide local governments with a 24 hours notice needed to help better coordinate humanitarian assistance to these vulnerable families.
- Tina McKinnor
Legislator
Here to testify and support is Kelan Lowney, Deputy Legislative Director with the California Department of Insurance, and Cynthia Gomez, Deputy Director of State Policy and Advocacy with the Coalition for Human Immigrant Rights. Thank you, alrighty.
- Kelan Lowney
Person
Thank you. First witness. Good afternoon. Chair Umburg, Vice Chair Wilk, and Members of the Committee. My name is Kelan Lowney. I'm Deputy Legislative Director here on behalf of Insurance Commissioner Ricardo Lara and the California Department of Insurance. Insurance Commissioner Lara is a proud co-sponsor of AB 2780 because he believes in California's ability to find solutions.
- Kelan Lowney
Person
California already welcomes more migrants and asylum seekers than any other state. There is currently a robust network of public, nonprofit, and religious organizations who work together to provide basic, supportive services to newly arrived migrants. We're talking water, food, food, clothing, medical screenings.
- Kelan Lowney
Person
When vulnerable people arrive in California, Californians step up, despite the efforts of some to use vulnerable people as political pawns. Our simple question is, what can we do to make this situation better? The situation is that certain other states have chosen to move thousands, possibly tens of thousands, of vulnerable people into California.
- Kelan Lowney
Person
Inconsistent notice, at best, is provided by these actors or by the bus companies that discharge vulnerable passengers at seemingly random locations at all times of the day and night. Support services then scramble to meet the buses before passengers are released onto the streets, endangering the passengers and overwhelming local supportive services.
- Kelan Lowney
Person
Instead, AB 2780 would require prior notice of the anticipated date and time of arrival and would allow local governments to set the location where the buses can drop off passengers. Let us know where and when, and we will do the rest.
- Kelan Lowney
Person
This is an important piece of legislation to ensure that California has the ability to welcome migrants in a humane manner with the dignity and respect all humans deserve. Thank you.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Good afternoon chair and Members. My name is Cynthia Gomez, Deputy Director of State Policy and Advocacy with the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights CHIRLA. CHIRLA is proud to co-sponsor AB 2780 and are thankful for the leadership of Assemblymember McKinnor on this Bill.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
As aforementioned, in recent years, Republican controlled states have sent newly arrived migrants to democratically controlled states to advance harmful anti immigrant narratives. In particular, Texas spent more than $148 million to contract with bus companies to send buses of migrants to sanctuary cities, at the time, primarily to Chicago and New York.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Kirilla saw these actions as inhumane and in anticipation of receiving our own bus, established the Los Angeles Welcomes Collective, which is the partnership between nonprofit organizations, faith based organizations, and the city and county with the goal of assisting newly arrived migrants.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
In June 2023, KidLa and the LA welcomes collective received our first bus from Texas, and since then we have welcomed 39 buses, each with 40 to 50 individuals, including infants, seniors, pregnant women, individuals with disabilities, and families.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
When we receive a bus in Los Angeles, we mobilize to identify a welcome center, coordinate food and clothing, gather volunteers, coordinate medical screenings, preliminary legal and case management support, as well as assist with family reunification.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Having 24 hours advance notice allows us to ensure a well coordinated, trauma informed response, and without a significant amount of time, we are unable to guarantee that everyone is assisted putting migrants in vulnerable situations. For example, individuals could find themselves unhoused, as many do not have Los Angeles as their intended destination.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
They could become victims of labor abuse or scams and in the worst case cases, become vulnerable to human trafficking. AB 2780 would ensure local governments and nonprofits have enough time to assist migrants who have often endured long and dangerous journeys and would continue to send a strong message that we in California will continue to treat migrants with the humanity they deserve. Thank you for your consideration on this Bill, and we ask for your support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Other witnesses in support of AB 2780 please approach the microphone.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Nika Maslin with the Mesa Veda group on behalf of Koresen in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support, please approach. Seeing no one else approach. Those opposed to AB 2780 please approach. Seeing no one approaching. Let's bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members saying no questions. Senator. Senator Nieho moves the Bill. All right, thank you very much. Beat you the punch, Senator Wilk.
- Scott Wilk
Person
So I've got a question. I don't know if you know this or not because you mentioned, you know, it's the right thing to do is 24 hours notice. I know that the, and I don't know the dollar figure because I wasn't really planning to talk about this, but the Biden Administration has flown in from Venezuela and all kinds of other countries, tens of thousands of migrants to different locations. Did they give states and cities 24 hours notice to be able to accommodate those people? It's not really gotcha. It probably is a gotcha because I'm sure they don't do it. But I'm just curious if you knew if they did it.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Chair. Senator, I'm not 1000% sure, but I will say that the gist of the Bill is that making sure that we have notice, that's the important part. You know, we can't control the actions of others.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
But what we really want to ensure is that when there are vulnerable migrants en route to California, that we have a sufficient amount of time to set up the infrastructure that's needed to make sure that we address their immediate needs. Because like I had mentioned, folks have just endured a long journey.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
They're asylum seekers, so they're, you know, in fear of their lives. And so we just want to make sure that we have the proper amount of time to make sure that we can meet their needs.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay. Other questions or comments? Seeing none, Senator Niello has moved the Bill. Would you like to close?
- Tina McKinnor
Legislator
Yes, we just really, just, as my colleague said, we just really want to make sure that when these folks land in California that they're taken care of in a humane way. We're asking just for the 24 hours. So I respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, Madam Secretary, please call the roll. It's been moved by Senator Niello.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 24 AB 2780. The motion is due pass the Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call] Two to zero.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Two to zero. All right, we'll put that on call. Thank you. All right. I see Assemblymember Lowenthal
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you Members of the Assembly, for providing a constant stream of authors here. We thought we might have a break, but you guys fooled us. So thank you. All right, Assemblymember Low, thank you for your accommodations. Mr. Chair, you have item number 29 AB 2132. Thank you very much.
- Evan Low
Person
This is Assembly Bill 2132 to help address the issue of rising tuberculosis and to make sure that we are increasing assessment and screening. And this bill helps to ensure that we have tackled this issue with additional detection. I respectfully ask for aye vote. I have additional witnesses in support as well.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
Thank you, honorable Members of the Judiciary Committee. My name is Priyanka Manghani and I'm a public health professional epidemiologist, having worked on TB as well as HIV control across India, Africa, and on USAID and CDC funded projects.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
I'm also a tuberculosis survivor and I wish to leverage my personal journey and expertise to pioneer innovative solutions aiming to eradicate the burden of infectious diseases and transforms lives.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
If we were to exclude COVID-19 data, TB is the deadliest infectious disease worldwide and kills someone every 20 seconds. The United States has seen an increase in TB cases, and as of March 2024, an estimated 13 million people in the United States have latent TB, a condition where the bacteria can harbor itself in a patient's body for decades, such as 20 to 30 years, without any symptoms, which leads to many people not knowing that they have an infection until it's too late.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
Californians are particularly impacted by TB and we are disproportionately impacted since we have double the rate as compared to the national average. An estimated 2 million Californians are infected with TB, of which only 23% are aware of their infection and only 13% have been treated.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
TB is known to kill more than 200 Californians each year, and we see a high burden amongst American, Asian Pacific Islanders, Latino, Black, and homeless populations, as well as those with co-infections such as diabetes, end-stage renal disease, HIV infection, and hepatitis C.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
As a TB survivor, I cannot stress enough the importance of testing and timely treatment. I was diagnosed with active tuberculosis and initially had no symptoms besides weight loss and chest pain, which led to a complicated diagnosis since I had no productive cough or even a sputum test.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
I was finally diagnosed on the basis of a CT scan which showed active TB infection, after which I completed my entire treatment and was declared TB free after nine months of daily adherence to my medications.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
I would like to stress that promoting TB screening and early treatment can prevent further transmission of the disease, relapse, and poor treatment outcomes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Probably need to turn on the microphone to say, thank you for your testimony. Thank you for your work in this space. Assume you urge an aye vote.
- Priyanka Manghani
Person
Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay, great, thanks. Others in support, please approach.
- Michelle Rubalcava
Person
Michelle Rubalcava with Nielsen Merksmer. On behalf of the Contra Costa County Board of Supervisors in support.
- Kelly Brooks-Lindsey
Person
Kelly Brooks on behalf of the County Health Executives Association of California and the Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors here in support.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Thank you. Clifton Wilson. On behalf of the City and County of San Francisco in support, thank you.
- Isabella Argueta
Person
Isabella Argueta with the Health Officers Association of California in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support, please approach. Seeing no one else approaching, let's turn now to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2132 please approach the microphone. Seeing no one moving about. All right, I moved the Bill. Senator Wilk has moved the Bill. Questions or comments? Seeing none. Would you like to close?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
You asked for an aye vote. All right, thank you very much, Madam Secretary. It's been moved by Senator Wilk.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item 29, AB 2132. The motion is do pass the Senate appropriations. Umberg?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Aye.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call] 4-0.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Excuse me, 4-0. We'll put that on call. Thank you very much. Assemblymember Low, you have item number 31, AB 2421.
- Evan Low
Person
Thank you very much, Mister chair and colleagues, to address this Assembly as expeditious. Thank you very much for allowing me to present Assembly Bill 2421 to help continually foster trust and effective representation with me. Today I have additional witnesses and support I respectfully asked for your aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Well done. All right.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
- Tim Talbot
Person
Good afternoon, my name is Tim Talbot. I'm an attorney for PORAC who is sponsor of the Bill to ensure public sector labor unions functions guaranteed by California's collective bargaining laws. Union employees must be assured that what they tell their union representatives in confidence cannot be forced out of them by representatives of the government or their agents.
- Tim Talbot
Person
Coercive employer questioning of a union representative whose only role in a matter arose from their status as a representative serves no purpose except to fish for union strategies, incriminating information, and potential admissions of wrongdoing by employees.
- Tim Talbot
Person
AB 2421 is a labor relations Bill that aligns with existing precedent of the California Public Employment Relations Board, which holds that coercive questioning of employees and the union representatives about confidential union matters unlawfully interferes with the representation and is an unfair labor practice. AB 2421 will not hamper employer workplace investigations as claimed by opponents.
- Tim Talbot
Person
Public employers and their agents retain the ability to order employees and coworkers who serve as employee representatives to disclose what they personally observe in the workplace and with respect to any other matter that's not protected as within the scope of the representation.
- Tim Talbot
Person
And when an employee representative is a witness or involved in the same matter under investigation, AB 2421 makes clear that confidentiality does not apply to their communications, while AB 2421 would apply to employer questioning during litigation, administrative proceedings, including depositions pursuant to existing per precedent, a balancing test is used to weigh the employer's interest in acquiring the information against the adverse impact on collective bargaining rights.
- Tim Talbot
Person
And as noted in the Committee's analysis, third parties and courts are not subject to the provisions of this Bill. Importantly, the term employee representative is used in AB 2421 does not mean any coworker, but refers to an officer, representative or authorized agent of the union based on existing precedent.
- Tim Talbot
Person
The opponent's concerns about SB 2421 have been sufficiently addressed, and the Bill properly balances the interest of employees, employee organizations and the public sector employers.
- Randy Perry
Person
Mister Chairman Members Randy Perry with Aaron Reed and associates, on behalf of PORAC and the other co sponsors, California Association of Highway Patrol, the California Association of Professional Scientists, OCEA I'm trying not to look at my notes. Cal Fire firefighters and United Auto workers.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
You are permitted to look at notes.
- Randy Perry
Person
I know what I was trying to do with that. All in support of the Bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Others in support, please approach the microphone.
- Coby Pizzotti
Person
Our Members Kobe Pizzotti with California Association of Psychiatric Technicians instrong support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you.
- Shane Gusman
Person
Shane Gusman on behalf of the California School Employees Association, the teamsters in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Others in support, please approach the microphone. Seeing no one else approaching. Those opposed to AB 2421 please either approach the table, go ahead and sit down and or the microphone.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, who would like to go first?
- Aaron Avery
Person
Good afternoon, Mister chair. My name is Aaron Avery with the California Special Districts Association respectfully opposed to AB 2421.
- Aaron Avery
Person
Although the bill's sponsors have indicated that they seek to codify per decisions, the bill's restrictions go beyond the per decisions cited in the Committee's analysis, and the need for this legislation in this space has not been established. We acknowledge the recent amendments made to the Bill, but they do not resolve our concerns for two primary reasons.
- Aaron Avery
Person
First, prior to the recent amendments, the bill's intent language stated that the Bill was intended to create a privilege.
- Aaron Avery
Person
While that intent language has been reversed, the bill's substantive provisions remain the same or largely unchanged by preventing employer questioning of certain individuals with potentially relevant information, this Bill will still have the same effect as a privilege in some circumstances.
- Aaron Avery
Person
However, unlike privileges such as attorney client privilege or physician patient, this Bill has none of the protections set forth in the evidence code that pertain to those types of privileges.
- Aaron Avery
Person
Second, regardless of whether the bill's provisions are characterized as a privilege, they will interfere with employer investigations where relevant information has been shared between an employee and employee representative.
- Aaron Avery
Person
This will limit the ability of public employers to conduct investigations into workplace safety, harassment, and other allegations as required by law, including under last year's SB 553 by Senator Cortese.
- Aaron Avery
Person
The recent amendments to the Bill to create an exclusion for circumstances where an employee representative is a party or witness are exceptionally narrow and are limited to that representative specifically being a party or witness to events forming the basis of a potential administrative disciplinary proceeding or a criminal investigation, leaving other proceedings not covered by the Bill, including litigation.
- Aaron Avery
Person
Finally, the Bill leaves important terms undefined, leading to potential disputes. We respectfully ask for a no vote today. Thank you. Thank you very much, Miss Hoffman.
- Aaron Avery
Person
Good afternoon, Mister chair Members. Ashley Hoffman on behalf of the California Chamber of Commerce, respectfully opposed. As the analysis notes, the concept of confidential communication between employee and union representative is not entirely new.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
And as the pro ins have indicated, PERB and the LLRB have been very clear that coercive questioning that leads to an interference with a worker's right to to organize is not permitted. And Perb therefore has articulated balancing tests to determine whether the employer's questioning was unlawful Interference.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
For example, looks at the scope of the questioning, its purpose, whether the information is available through other avenues, and the employer's interests as compared to the employee's interests. This balancing test recognizes that there are often competing interests and that a balancing test is therefore appropriate.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
Interference.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
Our concern is that AB 2421 effectively says that outside of the two very narrow exceptions, there is never an interest of the employer to justify any questions whatsoever about certain communications.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
This seems to be at odds with existing law and employers obligations to maintain safe workplaces that are free from misconduct or unlawful behavior, as well as the fact that it appears arbitrary that, for example, during a litigation proceeding, a non employer defendant or other party could could ask questions, but the employer defendant would be the only one prohibited from doing so.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
For those reasons, we urge a no vote today.
- Chris Reefe
Person
Good afternoon. Chris Reefe on behalf of the California School Boards Association, in opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Thank you very much. Others who are opposed.
- Ethan Nagler
Person
Ethan Nagler. On behalf of the California Association of Recreation and Park Districts, in respectful opposition. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Dorothy Johnson
Person
Good afternoon. Dorothy Johnson. On behalf of the Association of California School Administrators, also my colleagues from the urban counties of California, Rural County Representatives of California, California Association of Joint Powers Authorities, PRISM, and the Community College League of California, all expressing opposition. Thank you.
- Eric Lawyer
Person
Eric Larry. On behalf of the California State Association of Counties, respectfully opposed. Thank you.
- Johnnie Pina
Person
Good afternoon. Johnny Pina with the League of California Cities and respectful opposition. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Jamie Hough
Person
Afternoon. Jamie Hough with the Civil Justice Association. Of California, respectfully opposed. Thanks.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, others opposed. Please approach. Seeing nobody else approach, approach the microphone. Let's bring it back to Committee questions by Committee Members. I have some. If no one else has some. All right, I'll go. All right, thank you. Since I'm chair judiciary, I'll play chair judiciary for just a moment.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
In terms of the union representative, where does their duty of loyalty lie? To the individual who communicates certain things or to the organization?
- Tim Talbot
Person
And when you say duty of loyalty or the organization, or the union?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
No. For example, a lawyer has a duty of loyalty. So union representative. I'll just use that as an analogy. It may not be a perfect analogy, but as to the union representative, to whom does the union representative owe a duty of loyalty, if any, either to an individual employee or to the union generally?
- Tim Talbot
Person
My understanding is they owe their duty to the union itself, and then they are tasked with representing individual employees on behalf of the union.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So in terms of their duty of confidentiality, if one employer reveals the union representative that that employee intends to harm other union employees, what is the union representative's responsibility?
- Tim Talbot
Person
So there's nothing in the law that precludes an employee from disclosing what they may have shared with the union representative. However, the union representative would be precluded from disclosing confidential communications that fall within the scope of representation. So the employers are free to ask sny percipient witness
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Maybe II didn't ask that question correctly. A union employee goes to their union representatives, says, I intend to harm other employees in my workplace. The representative, the union representative to whom that communication was delivered, does that union representative have any duty or prohibition on communicating that information?
- Tim Talbot
Person
So you've probably touched on one of the most difficult questions, in my experience, that union representatives have to deal with.
- Tim Talbot
Person
And under those circumstances where the safety of an individual is paramount and it appears that it's, you know, credible, then I think individuals have to take the safety of themselves and everyone in the workplace and elevate that above confidentiality in those kinds of circumstances, that would be an exception. And there are exceptions to confidentiality.
- Tim Talbot
Person
It is not as strict as a privilege.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Would it be required or would it simply the prohibition be removed? In other words, would the reunion representative at that point be required to communicate that?
- Tim Talbot
Person
I don't know that there's a requirement absent a workplace policy. And so we're talking a lot about the enactment of new policies since July 1 where those kinds of reporting are mandated. And I do think that the duty of an employee to maintain a safe workplace would probably trump some of those other types of considerations.
- Tim Talbot
Person
Now, how they go about disclosing that there might be some need for some, you know, delicacy in terms of handling.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I want to make sure we don't get our terms crossed here. I'm not talking about the employee. I'm talking about the union representative.
- Tim Talbot
Person
Well, so maybe there's where the confusion lies. We're talking about employees who serve as union representatives. Their employer is a public agency. They may employ as an employee of the union. The union may have a separate non state representative.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Are you saying the union representative then would have a duty to report or no?
- Tim Talbot
Person
None of you know, the employer has no control over them. Talking about shop stewards, people who are employees in the workplace who serve as stewards to represent other individuals and become witnesses to conduct in the workplace.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I'm not talking about what they've observed, smelt heard. I'm talking about what was communicated to them in confidence by another employee.
- Tim Talbot
Person
Yeah, that is the most difficult scenario. Right. Because if that person came and just told them that they're going to do that, but wasn't seeking advice or something, I think that's clear. There's no confidentiality protecting that communication.
- Tim Talbot
Person
If it goes further about what I should do or not do, then I think it's incumbent upon that representative to give proper direction.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Under the provision of this Bill, can the union representative I recognize or the steward who's been disclosed confidential information, can they be subpoenaed? Can they be required to disclose it by, for example, a court order?
- Tim Talbot
Person
Yeah, the Bill does not apply to a court. So again, a court, and what we think is that the balancing test that was mentioned would be relevant in a court's analysis of disclosing that information, but it doesn't rise to the same level as a privilege.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So the court would be required by this Bill to go through that analysis before they would compel someone to provide it.
- Tim Talbot
Person
Doesn't speak to the court having to do that. Right. This is a prohibition on employer questioning. So the employer would be coming forward saying, I need this information. The relevant inquiry is, can you attain it through any other means that do not invade the province of the confidentiality? And if so, you should avail yourself to those.
- Tim Talbot
Person
If not, then, yeah, I think the court could say something.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, well, we have conflicting. We have issues that bump against one another. It's workplace safety, confidentiality, being able to communicate in confidence, so. All right, enough of that. Other questions or comments? Is there a motion? Senator Druazo moves the Bill. Senator also moves the Bill. All right, thank you. Would you like to close?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much. Okay, Senator Durazo, move the Bill. All right. And I think Assemblymember Low closed. Did you close? Okay. All right, great. All right, Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 31, AB 2421. Motion is to pass through Senate appropriations. [Roll Call] 4-0.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call] 4-0.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Put that on call. All right, thank you. I only see one Assembly person here, and I think that's assemblymember Haney. So we'll wait a while till someone else shows up. No, go ahead. Right, right. You have to be quick. You were quick. All right, thank you very much. Here we go.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
All right, which one am I doing?
- Matt Haney
Legislator
I got three.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Well, let's start with file item number 43. AB 2374.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Alright
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
2374.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Chair and members. AB 2374 will strengthen California's displaced Janitors Opportunity act by expanding protections for laid off janitors.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
In 2002, California passed the Displaced Janitors Opportunity Act to prevent mass layoffs of janitors when there's a change in the staffing agency at the same facility if a janitorial services contract is terminated, the act currently allows the laid off janitors to continue working in the same position under the new janitorial staffing agency for 60 days.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
However, there is no longer adequate time for laid off workers to transition between jobs, and the recent mass layoffs across all industries have exposed other shortcomings in the existing act. For example, on December 5, 2022, X, formerly known as Twitter, ended its 12 year contract with a janitorial agency.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
This decision left those janitors without a job overnight, right before the holidays, X was able to exploit the loopholes in the current law to not provide the adequate transitional employment period to the laid off janitors.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
This Bill will update the California Displaced Janitors Opportunity act, closing these loopholes and requiring adequate notification to janitors who have been laid off.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
We worked closely with the opposition and have amended the Bill to address nearly all of their concerns, particularly those that had led to greater opposition to start out with and with me to testify here in support of the Bill, I have Romney Signy and Julio Alvarado from SEIU Local 87.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Welcome. You each get two minutes whenever you're comfortable.
- Julio Alvarado
Person
[Spanish]
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Hi, my name is Miyal. I'm going to translate for him. His name is Julio. He's a Member of the ACAU Local 87. He was one of the members affected when Twitter shut down. He feels that when the new owner took over that kind of like opened up the doors for our members to have like unfair labor.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
They lost businesses, they lost family members, and it's up to the day they have not been able to recuperate from that loss. Really here to ask if you know this Bill can pass? Because that's going to help all of our 5000 members that they're actually belong to Local 87.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
They have been affected by this tragedy that happened when Twitter shut down.
- Julio Alvarado
Person
[Spanish]
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
He would like to have one of our members, Martin, give out his testimony. He's a father also last job,
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
You only have two. Are you testifying?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We can have him testify. It's okay. It's more important than mine.
- Mayela Ortiz
Person
Good afternoon.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
[Spanish]
- Mayela Ortiz
Person
His name is Martin. He's one of them. Sorry. Thank you. His name is Martin. He's one of the Members that used to work at Twitter, now known as X. He says that he lost his job and he feels like janitors are not being treated fairly, they need more representation.
- Mayela Ortiz
Person
They would like for you guys to please consider this Bill that's going to help him and all of the 5000 Members that have been affected. He has been through a lot ever since that loss when he lost his job over at Twitter. So he'd like for you guys to consider passing this Bill. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Those in support of Assemblymember Haney's Bill, please come to the microphone.
- Shane Gusman
Person
Shane Gusman on behalf of the California School Employees Association in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in support of AB 2374 please approach. Name, affiliation, position.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
[Spanish]
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Hi. Ramniq signy with SEIU local 87, and I'm in support. Thank you.
- Elmer Lizardi
Person
Good afternoon, Chair and members. Elmer Lizardi, on behalf of the California Labor Federation, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support, SB 2374 if you're in opposite. Okay, go ahead.
- Mayela Ortiz
Person
My name is Mayela. I'm a union representative from SEIU local 87 and I support AB 2374.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, others in support, seeing no one else approaching, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2374 please come to the either table or the microphone. Okay.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
Good afternoon. Ashley Hoffman, on behalf of the California Chamber of Commerce, we have an opposed unless amended position. I just really want to thank the author.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
They've had a lot of conversations about this Bill with us and amendments, just really one sticking point about the Bill requiring the awarding authority to notify the union about a change in contract and they could be sued in court if they fail to do so.
- Ashley Hoffman
Person
From our perspective, that obligation should fall on the contractor, which is the one that is bargaining with that union. So we are continuing to have conversations to see if there's a way that we can get at the problem of the sponsors are seeing while addressing our concerns. So thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, others who are in opposition to AB 2374.
- Jaime Huff
Person
Jamie Huff with the Civil Justice Association of California in respectful opposition. Thanks.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Stephanie Estrada
Person
Good afternoon. Stephanie Estrada with the California Business Properties Association and the Building Owners and Managers Association of California in opposition. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thanks. Others in opposition, seeing no one else approaches the microphone. Let's now bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members. Seeing no questions. Is there a motion, Senator? Senator Ashby moves the Bill. Alright. Would you like to close?
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Thank you. And we've been working closely with the opposition. Really just one small issue remaining that we're continuing to talk to them about. And respectfully, ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Alright, Madam Secretary, it's been moved by Senator Ashby.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item number 43, AB 2374. The motion is do pass the Senate appropriations. [Roll Call]
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
3-2. We'll put that Bill on call. All right, thank you. Next, Item 44, AB 2741 by Assemblymember Haney. Go ahead. Floor is yours.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Chair and Members, I will be accepting the Committee's amendments today and I appreciate the thoughtful feedback on the Bill. This Bill is in response to the increase of rental car thefts occurring in California. Right now, rental cars are being stolen at alarming rates, with rental car companies reporting that they have had a 266% increase in vehicle thefts over the past three years. Unfortunately, rental car companies don't have the ability to intervene in a timely fashion under current law.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
When a car is missing or stolen, tracking systems cannot be legally activated until the car has been missing for 72 hours past its return time.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
This means that there are three whole days where the location of the vehicle is unknown, and by the time tracking systems are activated, the vehicles are often recovered severely damaged, or with stolen goods, mail and packages inside.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Some companies are reporting that by the time they can locate the vehicle, it shows that their last known location is outside of the United States. This is a simple, common sense solution, increase to the, to respond to increasing rates of rental car theft, allowing rental car companies to initiate vehicle recovery 24 hours after failure to return, rather than 72 hours.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
This would mean intervention before a car has been used in a crime, broken down in a remote location, or even left the country, and helped them recover valuable assets and protect public safety.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Here to testify with me today in support of the Bill is Sharkey Laguana from the American Car Rental Association and John Moffatt, on behalf of Enterprise, who would like to go first?
- Sharky Laguana
Person
I'll go first. Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Committee Members. I'm Sharky Laguana. I am the President of the American Car Rental Association. I'm not a paid lobbyist. It's a volunteer role. I run a small van rental business. I help bands go on tour. That's what I do. I help touring musicians tour the US.
- Sharky Laguana
Person
What I used to be. When I started this business in 2003, for the first 20 years, I think I had two stolen vans, both of which were returned. In the past year, I've had 12. In the past three weeks, I've had four.
- Sharky Laguana
Person
There's been an explosion in crime theft rings that have identified a path that is very hard for the car rental industry to address. They are asking people to rent a car on their behalf. The folks showing up to rent the vehicle have a valid light driver's license. They have a clean credit record. They have no criminal history.
- Sharky Laguana
Person
And then these people pick up the car and then they hand it to the theft ring that's behind this. And then the vehicle disappears. And we are, our industry, I've never seen anything like this in the many years that I've been involved with this industry, and my nine years on the board in my past four years is serving as President of the Association. The GPS, the whole point of the GPS here is we're moving it from 72 hours to 24 hours when we can activate it.
- Sharky Laguana
Person
I'll remind the Committee that Uber and Lyft know where you are every second that you're in their vehicle, even though they don't own the vehicle at all. I'll also make the point that none of our members have any interest in arresting anybody.
- Sharky Laguana
Person
All we want is to recover our asset and in fact, by triggering the GPS, because the presumption of embezzlement doesn't happen till five days, if we can trigger the GPS and recover our vehicle using just a tow company or what have you, we can actually stop an arrest. We can stop.
- Sharky Laguana
Person
And the last point that I'll make is that stolen vehicles are often used to commit more crimes in my case.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, sir. You're going to urge an aye vote, I bet.
- John Moffatt
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair. John Moffatt on behalf of Enterprise Mobility. We appreciate the conversations with the Committee and the ongoing conversation about one of the provisions of the Bill dealing with keys.
- John Moffatt
Person
There's an existing provision in law that even if the renter does not return the keys after the vehicle is stolen, there is a presumption that they are not liable. We believe that that presumption should be removed from the law. If the renter can return the key, they retain that presumption for having no liability for that stolen vehicle.
- John Moffatt
Person
Keep in mind, we're not talking about crimes. We're just talking about liability for the stolen vehicle. From our perspective, we look at it and we are keeping in the law the clear and convincing standard that we must prove before a renter could be liable for a stolen vehicle.
- John Moffatt
Person
We think it's reasonable, especially given the challenges that we are dealing with with stolen vehicles today and the fact that these stolen vehicles are used in other crimes, that hopefully if a wayward renter knows that there could be some liability for the stolen vehicle at the end of the day that will dissuade them from answering a Facebook ad or what have you, to go and be a part of that activity.
- John Moffatt
Person
And so again, we appreciate the conversations and appreciate the ongoing conversation over the summer recess on that issue.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you, Mister Moffatt. All right, others in support of AB 2741 please approach.
- Jonathan Ross
Person
Good afternoon. John Ross for the Hertz Corporation in support. Thank you.
- Kaitlyn Johnson
Person
Good afternoon. Kaitlyn Johnson with Political Solutions on behalf of Avis and CalTravel. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. All right, other than support saying no one else approached the microphone, let's now turn to opposition. I see opposition coming forward. All right, Mister Herrell, the floor is yours.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Mister Chairman. Today walking briskly into the room, not running into the room. Robert Herrell with the Consumer Federation of California in opposition. First of all, I'd like to thank you, your Committee staff, also the author. And I thought it was Laguna, so I thought your name was more nautical than it even is.
- Robert Herrell
Person
We had a good conversation about the Bill and we've agreed to continue to talk. Really appreciate that very much. I would just note that the history on this and the analysis does a pretty good job towards the end of it.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Bringing this out is a little more murky than I think the rental car industry would like you to think. To wit, Hertz reported cars, and this only came out through their bankruptcy, by the way. Otherwise we would not know this.
- Robert Herrell
Person
Hertz reported cars as stolen, when in fact the consumer had either extended the stay and they had text receipts or other ways to prove that they had extended the stay or they just messed up and lost track of it. And literally people were in jail for as long as six months when the car was never stolen.
- Robert Herrell
Person
These were consumers who all they did was say, I need more time, or they brought it back and it got screwed up in the system. So the history of the industry does not exactly engender a very, very high level of trust.
- Robert Herrell
Person
And so in looking at this Bill, and we appreciate the other provisions that have come out, Mister Chairman. And we're committed to continuing some conversations with the industry, but I think that there's a distinction between a company that helps bands go on tour, and Hertz and Avis, and we're really only down to the big three.
- Robert Herrell
Person
I mean, there's lots of brand names out there, but there's only three big owners left. So you've had, you essentially have an oligopoly left in this industry and a handful of independents.
- Robert Herrell
Person
So I think that distinction is an important one that the Legislature ought to take into account when we look at this tracking technology and we look at consumer protection. So with that, we appreciate the conversations that will be ongoing. Ask for a no vote today. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Others in opposition, please approach the microphone. Seeing no one else approaching the microphone, let's bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members. Yes, Senator Wilk.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair. I'm supporting the Bill today, but if you want a Bill a protect consumers, you should do this next session. Require that these companies give you a full tank of gas when you rent it. I think it's a business model that you get, it's like, you know, two thirds and then you're at the pump and you're going, I always give them more because I'm stupid. I always give them more than they deserve. So that would be a great Bill. And I'd even as a private citizen, come up and testify on behalf of your organization. So think about that.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Fortunately you can't author it next year, Mister Wilk. No, I said I come as a private citizen. Okay. All right, I'm going to fly in from America.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Wilk. Senator Wilk, as a frequent renter of vehicles, I would welcome your participation in omnibus rental car Bill next year. All right, Senator Durazo has moved the Bill. All right. Would you like to close?
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Respectfully, ask for your aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, thank you. Madam Secretary, it's been moved by Senator Durazo.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is File Item 44, AB 2741. The motion is do pass as amended. [Roll Call].
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
5-0, we'll put that on call. Thank you. You're going to do Assemblymember Jones-Sawyer Bill. Congratulations. Go ahead.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Chair. And on behalf of Assemblymember Jones-Sawyer, I'm presenting 2136. And he is accepting the Committee amendments. This will clarify the legality of accessing and providing drug-checking services in California.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
Although drug-checking equipment and testing are permitted in California, the drugs paraphernalia and possession laws prohibit drug-testing and analyzing for substance users. So the programs that are helping people to make informed decisions about their health are currently operating in a legal gray area.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
This will address the gap in state law to encourage more cities to offer drug checking services in partnership with CBOs research institutions in state and local public health departments, and provide legal, criminal, and administrative protections for drug checking services which can save lives.
- Matt Haney
Legislator
And we should not make it illegal for people to make sure they know what's in a drug so that they can protect themselves and others. With me in support of the bill is Dr. Chelsea Shover with Drug Checking Los Angeles, and Grey Gardner, Acting State Director for Drug Policy Alliance.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Floor is yours.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
Great. Thank you. So thank you, Chair Umberg and Vice Chair Wilk, for having us here today. I am an epidemiologist and faculty member at the UCLA David Geffen School of Medicine, but today I speak only on behalf of myself as an individual.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
I'm also the principal investigator of Drug Checking Los Angeles, which we started as a research study, and it's now a CDC funded public health program. In my professional opinion, I view controlled substances testing, or colloquially drug checking, as a key strategy to prevent overdose. And there are three main benefits to drug checking.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
First, there's a direct benefit to the person having their substances tested. With that information, we run a sample. It only takes about 10 minutes. In the field, we're able to give people some answers right away. With that information, people can make healthier and safer choices.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
Secondly, drug checking, providing it in a low barrier and non-judgmental way, is an opportunity to engage people in other services. Through our program, we have engaged people who came in for drug checking in substance use disorder treatment, housing case management, HIV prevention and treatment, primary care services, and more.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
And then the third benefit is the community level information about the illicit drug supply. The drug supply changes very quickly, and it's very challenging to recognize those changes through traditional data sources.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
We've been able to respond to the threat of xylazine faster in Los Angeles because Drug Checking LA identified this veterinary tranquilizer in samples before we would have known from other sources like postmortem toxicology or law enforcement seizures.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
And we use that information to partner with the Public Health Department and community based organizations to get prevention resources to people who need them. Since we started the program about 18 months ago, we've tested over 700 drug product samples, all provided voluntarily and anonymously.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
The work we're doing is currently legal because we do it in the context of syringe service programs. AB 2136 would allow programs to expand to other settings, such as clinics, festivals, universities--
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I assume you're going to ask for an aye vote.
- Chelsea Shover
Person
I am, yes.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Okay, next witness.
- Norma Palacios
Person
Good afternoon, Chair and Committee Members. Greg Gardner couldn't be here today, but I'm here in his place. My name is Norma Palacios, Policy Coordinator With the Drug Policy Alliance, and I would like to express our gratitude to the Chair for meeting with us to discuss the intent of the bill.
- Norma Palacios
Person
Your insight and contributions will strengthen our efforts to accomplish our shared objective of addressing the unprecedented overdose crisis in the State of California.
- Norma Palacios
Person
The collaboration on this bill is a testament to the meaningful discussion and collective action that can take place to offer Californians with evidence-based policy solutions that could improve health outcomes for those struggling with substance use that is free from stigma and criminalization and meet their needs.
- Norma Palacios
Person
AB 136 is a critical tool in our efforts to improve our response to the public health crisis. And I would like to note that the opposition was removed, and I respectfully request for your aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, others who are in support of Assemblymember Jones- Sawyer's AB 2136?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
...with the SolĆs Policy Institute and also providing me-toos on behalf of Delivering Innovation in Supportive Housing, San Francisco Treatment on Demand Coalition, Any Positive Change Inc, National Harm Reduction Coalition, the Gubbio Project, HealthRIGHT 360, Californians United for a Responsible Budget (CURB), GLIDE, Larkin Street Youth Services, San Luis Obispo Bangers Syringe Exchange and Overdose Prevention, Legal Services for Prisoners with Children, Bienestar Human Services, the San Francisco Public Defender's Office, Tenderloin Neighborhood Development Corporation, Community Health Project LA, Balanced Imperfection, Drug User Health Advisory Committee of Southern Alameda County, the Sidewalk Project, Face to Face and Sonoma County AIDS Network. Thank you.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Becca Cramer-Mowder, on behalf of ACLU California Action, in support.
- Stephanie Estrada
Person
Stephanie Estrada, on behalf of California Latinas for Reproductive Justice, in support. Thank you.
- Carlos Gutierrez
Person
Mister Chair and Members, Carlos Gutierrez here on behalf of CCAP, in support. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, others in support? Seeing no one else approaching, let's now turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to Assemblymember Jones Sawyer's AB 2136, please approach. Seeing no one else. I think that's, you know what that is? That's another member of the Assembly being asked to take Committee amendments is what that is.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. So if you're in opposition, if you're in opposition to AB 2136, please approach. Seeing no one else approaching. All right. Questions by Committee Members? Seeing none. Is there a motion? Does Senator Durazo move the bill?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Senator Durazo moves the bill. All right. Would you like to close?
- Matt Haney
Legislator
On behalf of Assemblymember Jones-Sawyer, respectfully ask your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Okay, Madam Secretary, it's been moved by Senator Durazo. Please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 39, AB 2136. The motion is due pass as amended to Senate Appropriations. [Roll call]
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
2-2. We're gonna put that on call. Thank you very much. All right. I see-- Is Assemblymember Lee here? He is not. Assemblymember Kalra. Oh, I'm sorry. If anyone's here on Assemblymember Lee's bill, you need not stay any longer because it's been pulled. All right, Assemblymember Kalra.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Chair. I'll go and file order and begin with AB 459. I'd like to start by thanking the Chair and the Committee staff for their work on the bill, and I'll be accepting the Committee's amendments.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
AB 459 would make implementation fixes to the Racial and Identity Profiling Act, RIPA, that would improve the final data set's overall quality and facilitate better public access to the information. In 2015, the Legislature passed AB 953, which established RIPA to eliminate racial and identity profiling by law enforcement.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Under existing law, reporting agencies such as local law enforcement and the CHP are required to report data on police stops to the DOJ annually.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
However, following the completion of the 2023 RIPA data reporting period, 14% of reporting agencies submitted incomplete submissions or data with errors that could not be remedied before transmittal to the RIPA Board for their analysis and annual report.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Additionally, while the statute requires all RIPA data to be publicly available and specifies that law enforcement agencies are responsible for ensuring personally identifiable information of the individual stopped or the officers involved are not reported, PII is still being included in the open text data fields.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
This is despite training and technical assistance from the DOJ and has led to much of this information being unavailable to the public due to privacy concerns. AB 459 addresses these issues by first updating the annual submission deadline from April 1st to March 1st to allow the DOJ more time to resolve errors.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Additionally, the bill Incentivizes reporting agencies to meet existing deadlines with minimal errors or, at a minimum, with the DOJ by increasing the reporting frequency to twice annually for agencies that fail to comply.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Lastly, the bill would address concerns leading to the misreporting of PII in open text and narrative fields by establishing a process for researchers to apply for full access to this information under a confidentiality agreement modeled after existing disclosure processes for information related to firearms and criminal history.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Other requesters seeking access to the open text narrative fields must file a PRA request through the respective law enforcement reporting agency, which would then be responsible for redacting any PII, including those fields.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
With me to testify in support is Justin Rosa, Deputy Legislative Director with the Office of the Attorney General, and Damon Brown, Special Assistant Attorney General, who is available to answer technical questions.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Floor is yours.
- Justin Rausa
Person
Good afternoon, Mister Chair and honorable members of the Committee appreciate the opportunity to discuss AB 459 with you today on behalf of the sponsor, Attorney General Rob Bonta we would like to thank you and committee staff for strengthening privacy protection in the bill and applaud Assembly Member Kalra for his authorship to add to the author's presentation the California Department of Justice realized the need for AB 459 during our implementation of RIPA.
- Justin Rausa
Person
Under the current law, DOJ is responsible for collecting the data, working accordingly to remedy errors that are submitted to DOJ, and also responds to respective Public Records Act requests.
- Justin Rausa
Person
While we would have liked to introduce this bill earlier, we had to wait until the 2023 data to ensure that any proposed changes to the RIPA statute were evidence-based and tailored to our findings.
- Justin Rausa
Person
The bill before you therefore benefits from that passage of time as it is informed by two years of full statewide reporting, with the last reporting period ending recently on April 1. To establish a sense of scale and emphasize the Committee's analysis, over 500 law enforcement agencies submit RIPA data to DOJ.
- Justin Rausa
Person
4.5 million stops were submitted in 2022. 4.7 million stops were submitted in 2023. Happy to answer questions and respectfully ask your aye votes that the letter intent of RIPA data collection is fully realized.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Other witnesses in support seeing no one else. Oh, here we go. Other witnesses in support
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Tracy Rosenberg on behalf of Oakland Privacy in support as amended.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. In support.
- Ignacio Hernandez
Person
Ignacio Hernandez on behalf of the Center for Policing Equity. We do not have an official position, but in communication with the sponsors and trying to clarify some of the language. Look forward to working with them.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty, thank you.
- Justin Rausa
Person
Benjamin cone of Mountain View in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, other support seeing no one else approach the microphone, let's now turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 459, please approach. The floor is yours.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair and members. Cory Salzillo, on behalf of the California State Sheriff's Association, respectfully in opposition to the bill. The two concerns we have.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
First, the provision that says if there are unresolved issues or lingering errors or whatever the terms are, which are by the way, not defined in the bill, if you have those things, then the sort of remedy or the response is that in the subsequent calendar year or reporting year, you have to report twice.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
It's not clear to me or to my client that when you have those unresolved errors, which could. Or unresolved issues, there could be any number of things that make it difficult for the Department of Justice to process the information that is submitted pursuant to RIPA.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
And the sort of blunt response of, well, you just have to report two times next year. It's not always going to remedy whatever the issue is iIf it's not a year-over-year lingering issue. That's issue number one.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
Issue number two is the provision having to do with the Public Records Act, the narrative text field or the open field as it's referred to.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
What the bill does, as I'm sure was explained, was it relieves the Department of Justice from the burden of responding to those Public Records Act requests and foists that solely which it currently exists today. It now says, we are no longer in that business. We, DOJ, is no longer in that business.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
Locals, you handle it because you are the ones who are screwing it up. In so many words. My words respectfully. So, both of those provisions, we feel, puts pretty significant burdens on the local agencies. And you know, from sheriff's perspective, we did not support the creation of RIPA in the first place.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
This seems punitive and will result in costs and resource depletion. And for those reasons, we respectfully ask for your no vote. Thank you.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Others in opposition.
- Jonathan Feldman
Person
Members Jonathan Feldman, on behalf of the California Police Chiefs Association. Echo the comments of my colleague.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. The comment with respect to undefined terms, we don't like undefined terms leaving. Have you. Have you, Mister Salzillo, have you provided any definition to Assembly Member Kalra to help define the terms that you're concerned about being vague?
- Cory Salzillo
Person
I have not. And I would say that there's two reasons for that. One, they just came up with this gut and amend. You know, I understand they wanted to wait until they had two full years of reporting data to bring the bill. I'm not sure why they needed to do it in July, the second year of a two-year session.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
But that's neither here nor there. The other issue, the only thing I've had described to me is perhaps if somebody. If an agency waits until sort of the, you know, if March 31ist is the last day or March 30th, then they wait. And then even if it's a minor, you know, sort of data classification or something like that, they just run out of time.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
And we suggested, I think, respectfully, that if the issue is the Department needs more time to look at the data and process it, and whatever the issue is, that they build in more time between then and when those data have to be given to the RIPA board for the completion of their report, not to move back the timing.
- Cory Salzillo
Person
And again, I don't know what those really, those unresolved issues are. We've had two conversations, and some clarity would be helpful in that regard.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay. I'm just referring to the undefined terms that you had mentioned earlier. And I would ask the author, Assembly Member Kalra just one of the things we like to do is define terms as the bills leave the Committee. So just ask you, as this bill move forwards, to define those terms. Okay, thank you. All right, other questions? Comments? Seeing none.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Is there a motion? Yes, Senator Wilk has a comment or a question.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Senator, I don't really know. I'm probably going to lay off this bill today, but I just want to share an experience of mine, and it's been, like, two years running, and it's still unresolved.
- Scott Wilk
Person
So, I have a constituent in the Antelope Valley, former corrections officer, small business owner, Black gentleman, in fact, a leader in that community who's been a critic of local law enforcement, and rightly so. They're under federal oversight because there's been abuses.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All of a sudden, DOJ comes up in front of his kids and everything, takes his cuffs him, takes his guns, leaves. We still don't know why that ever happened. My gut tells me there's been some abuse, whether it was the locals asking DOJ to do it, but, like, there's no.
- Scott Wilk
Person
And I've supported money going for these programs, but we still don't have an answer. It's been over two years, and, you know, DOJ still has his gun somewhere, arrested and detained in front of his small children. And it's just. I just.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I get concerned about abuses of the government, and that's certainly, in my opinion, without any other information, believe that was an abuse. So, I'm just going to lay off because I don't know, and hopefully, I get better educated before it gets to the Floor.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Other questions or comments? Seeing none. Is there a motion? I'm looking at you, Senator Stern. Thank you very much. All right, Senator Stern has moved the bill. Would you like to close?
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Respectfully ask for an aye vote, and will take your thoughts under consideration, Mister Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much. Okay. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 33, AB 459. The motion is do pass is amended to Senate Appropriations. [Roll call] Four to one.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Four to one. Alrighty, bill is on call. All right, thank you. You got some other stuff. So next bill.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
AB 2347 please.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. AB 2347.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Thank you. I will start by saying I will be accepting the Committee's amendments, and with those changes, AB 2347 will make just two updates to landlord tenant law. Extend the time for a tenant to respond to a summons by five additional days and codify a timeline for demur and motions to strike hearings.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Existing law states when the tenant is served with a summons for unlawful detainer, a lawsuit that is filed to evict the tenant, they have only five days to answer. The tenant may receive an additional five days to answer if the summons is served by mail or substituted service.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
This window is significantly shorter than the customary 30 days response that is normally is permitted in non unlawful detainer or civil cases. The danger behind determining something as critical as shelter on such a quick timeline is that due process can easily be compromised.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Assuming the tenant was properly served, responding to an eviction lawsuit is not a simple matter for the low income tenants that make up the vast majority of eviction case defendants, the difficulty is exacerbated. Deciphering the legal forms is complex, making a well-founded legal argument is even harder. Private attorneys are expensive, and legal aid services are in short supply.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Procedurally, tenants in most jurisdictions travel to the courthouse, wait in line, fill out the forms, make copies, et cetera. To do so, most tenants will have to miss work and if they have children, arrange for childcare. For elderly and disabled tenants, the short time frame in which to respond is all the more difficult to meet.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
If the five days run out before the tenant files a response, a landlord can get a default judgment against the tenant, and they may lose the case without ever getting their day in court even if they have a meritorious defense to the eviction.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
The purpose behind the summary nature of eviction proceedings is to enable landlords to recover possession of the rental property relatively quickly. And I want to thank the California Apartment Association for working with us to strike the right balance and thank you to the Judicial Council for their feedback and working with us further on those changes.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
With me to testify and support is Karen Kontz, regional counsel for Legal Services for Northern California.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much.
- Karen Kontz
Person
Good afternoon. My name is Karen Kontz. I'm an attorney with Legal Services of Northern California. The nonprofit law firm serves 23 mainly rural counties covering most of the state north of the Bay Area. Last year, we helped over 10,000 low income Californians and over 50% of our cases were housing cases.
- Karen Kontz
Person
In my role as regional council, I see a lot of eviction cases. I support attorneys providing housing related legal advice across our eight offices. AB 2347 makes small but procedural changes that better protect tenants due process rights, prevent unfair evictions and help conserve court resources.
- Karen Kontz
Person
By extending the time to respond from five days to 10, the bill gives tenants a more reasonable time period to respond to their eviction case. One result will be that more tenants are able to avoid default judgments. In Yolo County, where our office has a shriver grant with the court and we can get data on default judgments, around 44% of unlawful detainer cases filed between 2017 and 2019 resulted in defaults.
- Karen Kontz
Person
With more time for tenants to find legal help and respond to the summons, we expect this number will decrease and this will save attorney and court resources by reducing the number of motions to set aside filed by tenants with valid reasons for failing to respond.
- Karen Kontz
Person
As, the author mentioned the answer form is complicated and it's difficult to complete without assistance. So many tenants are not able to get help within the time to respond. In our Sacramento office, we can't come close to meeting the housing needs for all the low income residents of Sacramento.
- Karen Kontz
Person
Our intake list fills up every day and there are around 20 to 60 calls per day that come in after our intake is closed.
- Karen Kontz
Person
This means that tons of notices and eviction cases we never see the additional time to respond will help tenants, will allow them to seek help early, arrange for transportation, and be likely to get a timely appointment with our advocates--
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. I assume you urge an aye vote. All right, great. Thank you. Others in support?
- Brian Augusta
Person
Good afternoon Chair and Members. Brian Augusta on behalf of the California Rural Legal Assistance Foundation, proud sponsor, urge an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
One second. If there's anyone in the hallway who wish to testify either in support or opposition to any of Assemblymember Kalra's bills, please come on into the hearing room so we can queue up. All right, thank you.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Becca Cramer-Mowder on behalf of ACLU California action, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Serafina Johnson
Person
Serafina Johnson with the Housing Now California Coalition, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Elizabeth Reynaga
Person
Hi, my name is Elizabeth Reynaga, and I am Resident Reunited Network. Thank you.
- Ana Tutilla
Person
Buenas tardes. Mi nombre es Ana Lidia Tutilla, represento a la organizaciĆ³n Promotoras De Salud Mental y venimos a apoyar el proyecto de ley 2347. Gracias.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Quana Treijo
Person
[Spanish]
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Sarah Johnson
Person
Hi, my name is Sarah Johnson with Mutual Housing California and Resident United Network in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Amina Finneas
Person
Hi, my name is Amina Finneas. I'm here representing Residents United Network in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Neha Saju
Person
Neha Sajo on behalf of the Western Center on Law and Poverty, proud co-sponsor in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you,
- Catherine D. Charles
Person
Catherine Charles on behalf of Housing California, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Andrew Dawson
Person
Andrew Dawson, the California Housing Partnership in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
Benjamin Cone of Mountain View, California in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, seeing no one else testifying in support, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2347 please approach.
- Karim Drissi
Person
Good afternoon, Mister Chair and members. Karim Drissi on behalf of the California Association of Realtors, in respectful opposition to the measure. We do want to sincerely acknowledge the leadership of the author, the work of his staff, tremendous staff, as well as the work of the sponsor.
- Karim Drissi
Person
Unfortunately, this is a measure where we have to respectfully agree to disagree. So, we remain in opposition, but we sincerely look forward to working with the author on other legislative proposals. Thank you so much,
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Others in opposition, please approach. Seeing no one else approaching, let's bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members? Seeing none. Is there a motion? Senator Durazo. Senator Durazo moves the bill. You did accept the amendments, right?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Yes.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Yes. Okay, great. Thank you. All right, would you like. She definitely moved it. Senator Durazo definitely moved the bill. All right. Thank you very much. All right. Assembly Member Kalra, would you like to close?
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 34, AB 2347. Motion is do pass as amended. [Roll call] Four to two.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
4-2. All right, we'll put that on call. Next, Assemblymember Kalra, item 35, AB 2602.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Thank you, Mr. Chair. AB 2602 would require a performer's informed consent and proper representation when executing a contract for any transfer of rights to that individual's likeness or voice.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Amidst the rise of the digital age, performers across the entertainment industry have inadvertently been signing away their rights to their digital selves through clauses that can look like standard copyright language. Specifically, individuals are unknowingly authorizing studios to use their voice and likeness in all media, by all current and future technologies, in perpetuity and with no additional compensation.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
AB 2602 strikes the balance between industry progress and protecting a performer's rights, their digital self and livelihood. This bill does not outright prohibit the use of digital replicas, but rather ensures that if performers agree to license out their digital self, that they are fully aware of the extent of and the intentions for that use.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
I would like to thank the Motion Pictures Association and Recording Industry Association of America for working with my office on amendments that address their concerns. This bill has received bipartisan support and here to testify in support is Shane Gusman on behalf of SagAftra and Elmer Lizardi with the California Labor Federation.
- Shane Gusman
Person
Gusman, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, Shane Gusman on behalf of SagAftra and our 160,000 plus performers. The development of this type of technology that can create a copy of your voice or likeness such that the public can't really tell that it's not you, is incredibly scary for performers.
- Shane Gusman
Person
And the technology is getting cheaper, it's getting better and easier to use. And so we believe, and we thank the Assemblymember for authoring this bill, that we need to put some guardrails around it. As he said, we're not preventing the use of this technology, we're just making sure that it's used in a responsible way.
- Shane Gusman
Person
This bill basically deals with informed consent so that there isn't unauthorized use of the technology. And we ask for your aye vote.
- Juan Fernandez
Person
Thank you Mr. Chair and Members of the Committee, Juan Fernandez with the California Labor Federation, a proud co-sponsor of AB 2602. The advancement of technology should be to the benefit, not the detriment, of workers, and should be used not to exploit deskill or abuse their skills.
- Juan Fernandez
Person
We do believe that technology can be a productive tool when used to support workers, not when used to replace them.
- Juan Fernandez
Person
The guardrails put in place for AB 2602 are a model on how to regulate the use of artificial intelligence in the workplace to ensure workers have a real and meaningful oversight on how this technology is used by employers.
- Juan Fernandez
Person
AB 2602 requires employers to have a union or legal representation when entering a contract that allows a digital replica of their voice or likeness. As a tool in the entertainment industry, AI can support a plethora of workers and performers in a wide range of projects, bolstering opportunities for actors across the industry.
- Juan Fernandez
Person
However, this only happens with these worker centered guardrails as they are put in place to ensure performers are at the center of the decision making process. AB 2602 will address the use of AI in the entertainment industry, but this worker centered concept can be applied to other industries impacted by emerging AI technologies.
- Juan Fernandez
Person
And for these reasons, respectfully urge your aye vote at the appropriate time. Thank you.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Others in support, please approach the microphone.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Hi, again. Tracy Rosenberg, Oakland Privacy. We are in support.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support, saying no one else approached the microphone, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2602, please approach.
- Benjamin Cohn
Person
Support actually, Benjamin Cohn of Mountain View again.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support, seeing no one else. Let's turn to opposition. Opposition to filing number. I'm sorry, 35, AB 2602 seeing no opposition. Let's bring it back to Committee for questions, comments, questions or comments? Seeing no questions or comments. Is there a motion?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Wilk moves.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Senator Wilk moves the bill. All right. Would you like to close?
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
I'd like to ask for your aye vote.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Thank you very much, Madam Secretary. Please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 35, AB 2602. The motion is do pass to Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call]
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Thank you. All right.
- Committee Secretary
Person
8-0
- Roger Niello
Legislator
8-0. We'll put that on call. All right. Assemblymember Kara? Our favorite bill coming up right now.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Yes. AB 3279, the bill. This is the annual bill authorizing the licensing fee to be collected from California attorneys to Fund the state bar. And let me begin by saying that no Committee wants to authorize a fee increase.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
And while the rank in file staff at the bar deserve to be fairly compensated, it feels a little unfair to the Legislature to have to have these civil servants jobs use as any form of leverage by state bar leadership to demand a fee increase.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
However, the bill does represent this Committee's commitment to honor the hard working staff of the state bar and protect them from potential layoffs. To that end, this bill proposes to authorize a fee increase of $88 for active attorneys and nearly $24 for inactive attorneys.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
The more than half of this fee increased, $52 of the 88 for active licensees will directly go to funding staff salaries and cannot be used for any other purpose.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Another dollar 11 goes to fund two proactive disciplinary programs, a diversion fund for first time low level offenders of the rules, professional conduct that may cut the state bar's disciplinary workload by 20%, and an innovative client trust fund monitoring program to proactively ensure a scandal like the one we all saw involving Tom Girardi never happens again.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
The fee level proposed by this bill is only about two thirds of what the state bar requested and represents an amount justifiable by the state bar's actual needs. Again, I stand committed to protecting the state bar's workforce while ensuring the prudent use of resources.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
This is why the fee increase proposed by this bill comes with significant budget control language to limit the state bar's discretion and how these funds could be spent. In closing, I will note that this Committee, that neither of these committees have a fiscal or budget is not a fiscal or Budget Committee.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
So trying to grapple with the state bar requests routinely demonstrates why this agency must move into the normal budget process. In my opinion. I hope this year's bill and fee proposal helps jumpstart conversations with the Governor and the judicial branch to help us in that effort.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
This bill does not have any formal support, but the state bar is here if Members have thoughts or questions.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much, Assemblymember Kalra. Chair Kalra. And I'm told that Assembly Privacy is waiting for me, so I'm going to exercise chair's prerogative to make a few comments before I leave and then I'll turn it over to Senator Wilk. First of all, I expect that your folks are going to testify.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Ms. Wilson and Mr. Stallings. Thank you. We've had a journey together and this journey has been made more challenging by Mr. Girardi and some of the challenges that that's exposed within the state bar. I'm grateful for the steps that have been taken over the last few years to increase accountability and discipline.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I believe we're still going to have some oversight with respect to accountability and discipline. We share responsibility with the California Supreme Court with respect to the bar. I think the Supreme Court actually has primary responsibility. But we exercise our oversight now and again. There are still some challenges to be met.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I am a magnet for comments and concerns concerning the state bar. I am still a practicing lawyer, although my partners probably don't agree with that. But I know that you've worked hard to basically meet some of those obstacles that have been presented.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And so, especially to you, Mr. Stallings, I know that you are basically a full time volunteer pretty much, your salary should be tripled, which by the way, is zero. In any event. In any event. So I wanted to make those comments before I have to depart and turn this over to Senator Wilk.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you Committee Members, for indulging that. Senator Wilk. There you go.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Was that a support position for you?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I will vote I when aye return. Yes, that's correct.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And if I heard correctly, you're just here to answer questions, correct? Or do you want to comment? You may thank you.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
My name is Brandon Stallings. Thank you. My name is Brandon Stallings. I'm the Supreme Court appointment.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I still can't hear you.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
All right.
- Scott Wilk
Person
There you go. Now you sound like God.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
All right, good afternoon, everyone. My name is Brandon Stallings. I'm the chair of the state bar of California. I want to thank Chair Umberg for his comments, also for Chair Kalra, for his work on the bill this year.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
I thank you all for your partnership working with the state bar along with the California Supreme Court on some of the reforms that Chair just talked about. This work relates to reforms, oversight and public protection actions in recent years that have made us more effective, focused, and transparent, and an accountable agency to both Senate and Assembly.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
It's because of this partnership hard work and growing trust that we are here today in support of AB 3279. The state bar identified the need for that $125 increase and attorney licensing fees, 95 of which was to maintain existing operations and services to keep the lights on, and $30 to improve public protection.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
This bill goes a long way to helping us get there. AB 3279 protects all current employees while anticipating that the state bar will double its vacancy rate by April 2027.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
We are up for that challenge, but do need to make necessary technological investments to enable us to sustain that headcount reduction without negatively impacting service levels for our remaining employees. To that end, the state bar is seeking authorization to access, either through transfer or loan funds from the Client Security Fund to support needed IT investment.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
We look forward to working with the author and the committees to identify a path forward on the IT investment issue over the coming weeks.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
As mentioned, AB 3279 also includes a small increase to support a diversion program for low risk misconduct matters and an audit and review program to protect the public from misappropriation and misuse of client trust accounts.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
With the fee increase currently included in the bill, and if there's an amendment that allows us the authority to use reserves for IT investments, we've requested to compensate for staff reductions and modernize our service to the public. We are excited about what the future holds for the state bar. Thank you.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
And we are happy to support this bill.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Not too bad. 215, are you speaking? You're just here for technical. Anybody else kind of dangerous with this? Anybody else in support, please come up and what position when you're ready for? Well, I'm doing support first, and then we'll do opposition. Okay. Seeing no one here supporting attorneys. Hmm. Do we have primary?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Do we have prime? Do we have primary? Hold it. Cause you're just a me too, right? Do we have? You're gonna be the primary. Okay, good. I'm just stepping in. Go ahead. Come up here if you like, or there, wherever you're comfortable.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
I am requesting amendments. These amendments should not be new. I requested them on the Assembly side, but it was procedurally too late at that point, I guess before it had to go to the Senate. I have spoken with staff for both committees about the need to codify a floor of testing accommodation procedures.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
Right now the state bar has taken the position that no California civil rights law applies to it and they have been challenging the federal disability laws. It is important that it is not left entirely to the discretion of the California Supreme Court.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
That court has held that both the Legislature and the court have authority to set rules regulating admission to the state bar.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
And there should be a floor set by the Legislature and statute in this bill to ensure that disabled applicants have equal opportunity on the bar examined, especially when it comes to getting decisions timely to be heard on administrative appeals and judicial review, and to have equal opportunity to make bar prep investment decisions about their accommodations.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
They should have a hearing if they have an appeal that is not granted on the papers. There is a hearing for Chapter six accusations and moral character determinations. We applied it all applicants, but not to something similarly controlling, an access to the profession for disabled applicants.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
They currently ban individualized consideration of certain accommodations with no showing that it's fundamental alteration or undue burden, which are the only exceptions to such individualized consideration under federal law. And all of those things should be codified into statute, among other things. You have my proposals, or at least your staff does.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
Before this is finalized, the Supreme Court may choose to go above it. There is a rules revision, but you should set that floor. It's not a question of admit of whether a particular applicant is admitted or what the admission requirements are. So it's not in their exclusive separation of powers jurisdiction. This should be done. It's belated.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
People are getting hospitalized last exam cycle because of the disparate treatment involved and the accommodation procedures for the Cal Palace. I urge you to do that. Thank you.
- Benjamin Cone
Person
Yeah, unless amended.
- Scott Wilk
Person
So you're opposed?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Anybody else speaking? Opposition speaking. Now let's pull it back to the Committee. Questions, comments, concerns? Senator Allen.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
I don't know if the author. The folks in the bar want to answer some of the concerns.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Thank you, Senator. Yes. Included in the bill, due to some of the concerns that have been raised, is in order to monitor the issue and receive more data. The bill does require the state bar to submit specified data regarding acts related complaints to the Committee.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
And once we get that data, then we can follow up and actually try to create policies that address some of those concerns. But definitely hearing it and want to make sure that we get the appropriate data so that we can respond either legislatively or the state bar can adopt policies that reflect the needs of that community.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Okay. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Can I have a motion? Motion by Senator Laird, and then I'll allow you close when I do my following my closing comments. I'm assuming with this increase that you guys are not going to be in next season story arc of Housewives of Beverly Hills. I got that commitment.
- Brandon Stallings
Person
You know, just like I tell all the victims that I work with, I'll never guarantee results, but I'll promise to work as hard as possible to make sure that the right thing happens. So that's my commitment.
- Scott Wilk
Person
And I am confident of that. You may close.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, I'm not thrilled with the prospect of increasing my own fees, but the reality is that if we don't approve this measure today, the state Supreme Court will be forced to set the licensing fee, and there will be no protections against a larger fee increase or limits as to how the bar may spend this revenue.
- Ash Kalra
Legislator
So with that, I respect the ash for your aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All right, let's call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This file item 37, AB 3279. The motion is to pass. [Roll Call] Seven to zero.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All right, seven to zero. And we will leave that on call for our colleagues. Up next. I know, Assemblywoman Irwin. So this is file item 42, AB 2723. Do pass as amended to appropriations. And with that, whenever you're comfortable. You may start.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Good afternoon, Vice Chair and Senators. I'm pleased to present 2723 which provides updates to the cradle to career data system referred to as C to C. I've been involved with C to C since its inception, the state budget, and currently serve as the Assembly Member on the governing board.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
With Senator Laird, I want to highlight for the committee the importance of having a longitudinal data system linking existing education, workforce, financial aid and social service information. This system will allow California to answer key questions about equity, while allowing us to address disparities in opportunity and improve outcomes for all Californians.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Unfortunately, in this space, California has not been the leader, but one of the last states to stand up a longitudinal data system, meaning we are catching up, but by no means breaking new ground.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
Thankfully, C to C celebrated its first round of data submissions from data providers last fall and anticipates making its first analytical tools data dashboards, available later this year. As with any maturing state entity, there are aspects of its governing statute that would benefit from refinement, which is what this bill seeks to do.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
This bill also clarifies the role C to C holds in relation to the data they maintain on behalf of the data providers and reinforces how C to C works with the Information Practices act. When the data system was crafted, the structure was thoughtfully when it was created, the structure was thoughtfully crafted to ensure data providers would willingly participate.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
This importantly meant that data providers would retain ownership and control over their source data. It also means that C to C was not granted any authority to direct or demand any action by the data providers. These structural limitations provide a barrier to C to C honoring the important rights provided by Californians in the Information Privacy Act.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
This makes directing Californias to data. This means directing Californians to the data providers who do not face the same barriers, an appropriate solution to honor these rights.
- Jacqui Irwin
Legislator
As noted in the analysis on page 10, I have accepted the committee amendments, and with me today I have two witnesses, Eric Flores, the Deputy Director for legislative affairs for the Office of Cradle to Career, and Raquel Morialis, policy and government relations associate for Ed Trust -West.
- Eric Flores
Person
Thank you very much. Eric Flores with the Office of Cradle to Career, here to offer any technical expertise or answer any questions.
- Raquel Morales Urbina
Person
Good afternoon, members. Raquel Morales on behalf of the Education Trust West we are a research advocacy organization committed to advancing policies and practices that dismantle the racial and economic barriers embedded in the California educational system.
- Raquel Morales Urbina
Person
We're excited for this long overdue statewide longitudinal data system that can provide cross sector data on education and workforce to give stakeholders insight into student outcomes and workforce development.
- Raquel Morales Urbina
Person
Put simply, C to C has the power to be a significant tool for improvement improving racial and socioeconomic justice in California's institutions, from a child's earliest years all the way to a student's educational journey into college and career.
- Raquel Morales Urbina
Person
Ed Trust West strongly believes that a data system must be centered on achieving equity and the needs of students, parents and families. Since the inception of the work in 2019, there have been a high level of engagement, transparency and collaboration throughout the process.
- Raquel Morales Urbina
Person
The office has continuously engaged stakeholders from public meetings, community engagement events, and continuous opportunities for public input. The tools developed under the system will allow families, students and communities to access data that can support them with making informed decisions about the education and futures.
- Raquel Morales Urbina
Person
Similarly, advocates and decision makers such as yourselves will have access to up to date data that can support with identifying systemic barriers, crafting policies, and targeting state investment. AB 2723 will allow C to C to fulfill its statutory obligations, but of releasing public facing tools while maintaining data security and privacy.
- Raquel Morales Urbina
Person
This legislation is critical as it allows them to execute their intended role as stewards of the data that the state agencies collect and contribute to the data system.
- Raquel Morales Urbina
Person
I'd also like to take this time to thank both Assembly Irwin and the office of cradle to career for the diligent attention to data security, security and privacy in this work. And with that, I respectfully ask for your. I vote great.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Others in support, please come up and add your me too testimony.
- Anna Alvarado
Person
Good afternoon. Anna Alvarado on behalf of the California EDGE Coalition in support thank you.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Good afternoon. Ronak Daylami, on behalf of Cal Chamber in support thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All right, anyone here in opposition? Are you primary? All right, great. Yep. Come on up whenever you're ready. Two minutes. Go ahead.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Hi, everyone. Tracy Rosenberg from Oakland Privacy. We are here with concerns about AB 2723. The basic rights provided under the Information Practices Act were broadly intended to touch all aspects of state activities and operationalize the privacy protection clause in the California Constitution.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
C to C is a large scale warehousing of California people's personal information under the auspices of a 21 person governing board and housed in the state's governmental operations office. The C to C is not, in fact, data maintainers.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
They will be utilizing the data for analysis and evaluation and sharing it with policy makers and advocates and researchers per their own website, and that is owning and using the data, not simply sort of maintaining it in a data refrigerator.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
We're concerned the Bill is attempting to shift privacy rights guaranteed by the state, at least sometimes, to local educational agencies that are not subject to the IPA. And we're open to creative solutions for dealing with administrative burden, but not simply exempting humongous, you know, state data projects from the IPA as a whole.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
If we do this, this will not be the first, and then sooner or later, we won't have an IPA at all. So we ask you to look for different solutions as a privacy group.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
You know, we've had 5000 conversations with the private sector about what a burden privacy laws are, and we understand that they can be, but that doesn't mean we simply exempt ourselves from them. So we don't think this is a good precedent and it's not the right answer to whatever problem we are perceiving with complying with the IPA.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
That's all. Thanks.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Anyone else in opposition? Me too, you got a whole sheet there.
- Lea Jones
Person
I will be quick, I promise. My name is or. Good afternoon, committee. Sorry. My name is Lea Jones on behalf of A Voice for Choice Advocacy. Unfortunately, we are requesting that this bill be amended today or we oppose.
- Lea Jones
Person
Specifically, we are opposed to no individual having the right to inquire nor be notified as to whether the data system maintains a record about them nor their child, and they cannot inspect PII personal identifying information and any record maintained in the data system.
- Lea Jones
Person
Most other similar California government databases, like CARE and the newborn screening registry, allow you to submit a form with proof of identity to request a download of whether there is any data pertaining to yourself or your child and what that data is. Sorry.
- Lea Jones
Person
Within C to C's first legislative reported December 2020, C to Cs very own legal Subcommitee also recommended to op out policy and even drafted a form per such before passing out of this Committee, we respectfully request that AB 2724 be further amended to remove the two sections that remove transparency completely and also add back in an opt out option so every individual in California remains informed about what PII is being collected by C to C and has the option to opt out.
- Lea Jones
Person
Thank you very much.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Great. Thank you. Anyone else in opposition? Seeing none, pull it back to the committee.
- John Laird
Legislator
Thank you. Just to comment. I appreciate the opposition. And as was mentioned in the opening statement, I'm the Senate's representative to the board of Cradle to Career. And the real idea here is to be this comprehensive database of many other places that collect information on which we can make decisions.
- John Laird
Legislator
And the Cradle to Career does not have the independent ability to check the identity. And besides, if there's a new data dump, it will just override it. And yet, some of the ones that are at issue in the testimony, people have a right to amend it or opt out or do things with those individual databases.
- John Laird
Legislator
And so the important thing is to protect that right, to make sure that people know and they do it because it is not an easy mechanism or even a possible one to enforce at the cradle to career level. So I think this bill resolves the problem.
- John Laird
Legislator
And if we all have to collectively work to educate people more about what their rights are about the primary underlying databases, something that we need to do, and at the appropriate time, I would move forward.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I was going to say, that sound like a motion to me. Anybody else seeing no other comments? We have a motion from Senator Laird that sounded like the close there, and that sounds like a close. So with that secretary, let's please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 42, AB 2723. The motion is do pass, as amended, to Senate appropriations. [Roll Call] Five to zero.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Five to zero. We'll leave that open for members to add on. Thank you very much.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Assemblywoman Carrillo, congratulations. So, if I read this correctly, you have two bills before us today. First one is file item 53, AB 1950, with the recommendation of do pass as amended to Appropriations. And with that, the floor is yours.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair and senators, I'd like to begin by accepting the Committee amendments. And I want to thank you for working with my team and getting this across. Today, I'm proud to present AB 1950, the Chavez Ravine Accountability Act.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
This bill acknowledges the historical displacement of the Palo Verde, La Loma, and Bishop communities known today as Chavez Ravine. This policy is sponsored by our California Department of Insurance Commissioner Ricardo Lara. AB 1950 is a critical step forward in aims to correct an injustice that displaced families and has lingered in the shadows of Los Angeles east side history for far too long.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
Amid the 1950s, the vibrant communities of Palo Verde, La Loma, and Bishop, otherwise known as Chavez Ravine, was home to mostly Mexican American families, as well as Italian American, Chinese Americans.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
But they saw an upheaval as families were uprooted and displaced in the name of progress. Families were promised a right of first refusal to better housing. But instead, they were left destitute. During this time, the City of Los Angeles employed various tactics to pressure homeowners to sell their properties, including the use of eminent domain.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
For generations, Chavez Ravine stood as a beacon of hope and resilience, embodying the daydreams and aspirations of families who build their lives within its embrace.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
With this legislation, we are addressing the past, giving voice to this injustice, acknowledging the pain of those displaced, offering reparative measures, and ensures that we honor and remember the legacy of these three communities. As we move forward, I urge you, lend your support to establish the healing for these descendants who still live within these communities.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
With me to testify and support is Josephine Figueroa, Deputy Commissioner of Policy and Legislation to the California Department of Insurance. This bill has received bipartisan support and I respectfully request, and aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Welcome, and you have two minutes.
- Josephine Figueroa
Person
Thank you. Good afternoon, Mister Chair and members of the Committee. Josephine Figueroa, deputy Commissioner and Legislative Director for the Department of Insurance, under the leadership of Insurance Commissioner Ricardo Lara. First, I would like to thank Assembly Member Carrillo for authoring this important measure.
- Josephine Figueroa
Person
Throughout his career in public service, Insurance Commissioner Ricardo Lara has been steadfast in his commitment to serving the underserved communities. From advocating for universal health care to championing environmental justices in the fight against climate change. Commissioner Lara's mission has always been to confront historical injustices and foster a more equitable society for all Californians.
- Josephine Figueroa
Person
This commitment continues as the proud sponsor of AB 1950. What we seek to address with AB 1950 is knowledge, understanding and healing. The neighborhoods of Palo Verde La Loma and Bishop in Los Angeles served as havens for historically marginalized populations seeking housing security amidst systematic discrimination.
- Josephine Figueroa
Person
Longtime residents of these communities were never fairly compensated for their property. Both landowners and tenants, many who have lived there for generations, were coerced into leaving their homes, although many resisted, all were eventually displaced. We have an opportunity to begin to address this, and we should.
- Josephine Figueroa
Person
This legislation represents a first, crucial step in providing long overdue compensation to these residents. It also offers a path to reconciliation and healing for all those impacted. By addressing past wrongs, AB 1950 paves the way for a more just and equitable Los Angeles.
- Josephine Figueroa
Person
It will help educate Angelinos about the true history of what is now known as Chavez Ravine. Promoting transparency and understanding AB 1950 marks a significant milestone in the journey towards achieving justice for these families. On behalf of insurance Commissioner Ricardo Lara, I ask for your aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you for that. Any me too testimony in support?
- Robert Naylor
Person
Bob Naylor for Fieldstead and Company. That's Howard Amundsen Junior, an Orange County philanthropist. Long day.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, sir.
- Nika Maslin
Person
Nica Maslin with the Mesa Verde Group on behalf of Inclusive Action for the City, in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you very much. Anyone here in opposition to the measure? Seeing none, I'll pull it back to the Committee. Questions, comments, concerns? Senator Niello.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
This happened a long time ago, and I'm aware, by the way, of some people, particularly of Mexican descent, who refused to go to Dodger games because of that. But why? Some people would say this is a local issue and Los Angeles ought to take it up. It's been a while. They haven't. Would you care to speculate why?
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
You know, I'm not sure why the city has not decided to move on anything on their own, but it's been decades in the making, and the community has gathered for many years and has been doing the work on the ground to get attention and representation and actually have a conversation.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
The City of Los Angeles has yet to apologize to these families and their descendants for selling their homes for lower costs during that time, for what happened in a political election in which a pro-housing mayor was then didn't win his reelection, and a already funded housing project that was moving forward during the Truman Administration that had federal funding was then rejected.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
And so, the families that were supposed to move into that complex weren't able to. And so, I'm just very proud to have grown up in this community, represent this community, and actually start a conversation that has yet to take place within the City of Los Angeles.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
This is a specific application, if you will, kind of, of Bradford's Bill that sets up the possibility for compensation for eminent domain issues that were pursued unjustly. And I told Senator Bradford that I would support that legislation if it held the local community, if it was a local community responsible for the injustice.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
My understanding is he's amended the bill since, and I'm happy to hear that. But that's exactly what this is doing, and so I can support this.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Can I take that as a motion?
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Sure.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Great. So, before you close. Definitely, definitely support the bill. You know, when it comes to history, it's the winners that write history. But that doesn't mean the history is true and there was an injustice there. I am really shocked, particularly when you look at the compensation of this current LA City Council, that they've not done anything.
- Scott Wilk
Person
But as you say, hopefully this spurs them to action, to do the right thing. And with that, you may close.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
I will take your statement as my closing. Thank you, Senator. Respectfully request and aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Very good.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item number 53, AB 1950. The motion is do pass, as amended, to Appropriations Committee. [Roll call] You have six to zero with members missing.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All right, 6-0, and we will leave that open for our colleagues to add on. Now we'll move to file item 54, AB 2355. Okay, the recommendation is do pass to appropriations. And with that, as soon as you've got your paper shuffled and you're ready, please proceed.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
Thank you. Mister chair and members, I'm proud to present AB 2355 which will require a disclosure when generative AI is used in political advertising to substantially alter existing media or create content that will falsely appear to be authentic to a reasonable person. The availability of tools to doctor images, video and sound is not new.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
However, rapid improvements of artificial intelligence and large language models, or LLMs, that are capable of generating sound, images, and text have already resulted in the creation of materials that are likely to pass off as convincingly real when they are indeed fake.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
In January of this year, a robocall using the AI generated voice of President Joe Biden told New Hampshire voters to, quote, save their vote for November rather than vote in the state's primary election. The individual who created the audio told NBC News that, quote, it took less than 20 minutes and it only cost $1.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
As this technology becomes cheaper, faster and easier for the public to use, and it is embraced by candidates and political campaigns. Its effect on democracy requires us to act. In this new environment, sensible regulations that protect free political expression and speech are vital to get ahead of this technology.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
Recent amendments limit this bill to the activities of state campaign committees as defined by the Political Reform Act, and move enforcement responsibility to the Fair Political Practices Commission. This change sends a strong President of making generative AI disclosures a part of our existing transparent requirements.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
Here to talk more of the need of the bill is Tracy Rosenberg with Oakland Privacy.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Hi again. Happy to be here in support of AB 2355. This bill comes as the legislature is facing the deployment of a new and transformational technology.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
As you know, AB 2355 seeks to help voters trying to distinguish between what is real and what is not as they make up their minds how to vote by requiring that synthetic paid political advertisements that are materially deceptive be labeled as such.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
This provision is structured in the same manner as other longstanding California laws that require labeling and disclosure for paid political advertisements. If the labeling doesn't happen, the FPPC can take action. So decisions with First Amendment ramifications are made by folks who are trained in interpreting and applying constitutional laws.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
We think that is an extremely important part of the bill. We also appreciate the focus in 2355 on trying to solve the problem with injunctive relief and taking action rather than just retroactively assessing fines, penalties and fees.
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
And we hope that you will support AB 2355 as a rational and measured reaction to the presence of AI content in our elections going forward. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Anybody else here in support? This is now the time for me to testimony.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Great. Thank you. Naomi Padron, on behalf of the Computer and Communications Industry Association, we're pleased to support the bill and would like to thank the author for working with us on the recent amendments.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
Lizzie Cootsona on behalf of TechNet in support. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Anyone here in the room in opposition to the measure? Seeing none, pull it back to the committee. Questions, comments, concerns? Bueller, can I get a motion? Thank you, Senator Laird. That's why I love you so much. Okay, we have a motion, you may close.
- Wendy Carrillo
Person
Respectfully request an aye vote. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you very much. Madam Consultant, please call the roll.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you very much. And we'll leave that open for members to add on.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 54 and the motion is do pass to Senate Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call]. You got six to zero with members missing.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
Mister Chair, could I make a off agenda remark?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Absolutely.
- Roger Niello
Legislator
When. Point of personal privilege, I suppose. When I was in the Assembly Judiciary Committee testifying, it was cold enough there to hang meat. And I came back here, and it's warm enough here to perspire under my coat. And I'm wondering, if anything, if others agree with me, if we could maybe put the temperature down a degree or two. Otherwise you might start hearing me snoring.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Actually, on behalf of the chair, because we had this issue last time we were here. He made the request, so DGS is aware of it, and this is the best that they can do. And again, it's government work, so, you know, it's the best they can do. All right.
- Scott Wilk
Person
With that, we have Assemblywoman Bonta, and one, two, you've got trifecta today. Do you want to go ahead and start with file item 57?
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Is that AB 3161?
- Scott Wilk
Person
It isn't, but we can start with that one.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
That would be great. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay, so we'll start with file item 59, AB 3161. And with that floor is yours.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Good afternoon, Chair and members. I authorize this bill because Black, Indigenous, and people of color communities experience higher rates of medical misdiagnoses and patient adverse events when compared to White patients.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
This bill requires hospital safety plans to include a process for addressing racism and discrimination and its impacts on patient health and safety, including monitoring sociodemographic disparities and patient safety events, developing interventions to remedy known disparities, and encouraging facility staff to report suspect suspected instances of racism and discrimination.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
This bill also requires hospitals to report demographic data to the Department of Public Health when reporting adverse patient events, and for DPH to facilitate the inclusion of demographic data when someone is filing a complaint regarding a health facility.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
We can't solve the problems of racial bias and disparities in patient safety events until we have real data about the scope of the problem in California. This bill will help provide that data very simply. With me today testifying in support is Vanessa Cajina on behalf of the California Panethnic Health Network and Onyeema Obiekea, Black Women for Wellness.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Welcome. And you have two minutes.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
Thank you. Good afternoon and thank you. Well, Mister Chair and committee, my name is Onyemma Obiekea and I'm Policy Director with Black Women for Wellness Action Project. We're a reproductive justice community-based organization committed to improving the health status and well-being of black women and girls.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
I'm here as a proud co-sponsor to express our strong support for AB 3161, the Equity in Healthcare Act, which will work to address the racial and implicit bias in healthcare and support access to justice for community Members who experience harm due to discrimination when receiving care.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
Adverse health events take many forms, and research reveals that disparities in quality of care exist across a variety of the patient safety indicators, with Black, Indigenous, and other people of color bearing the burden even as quality of care and outcomes have improved for everyone, racial and ethnic disparities persist.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
In the U.S. and California, the disproportionately poor health outcomes in maternal morbidity and mortality that burden Black mamas and birthing people is emblematic of this. We know the statistics. More than 80% of pregnancy related deaths have been found by maternal mortality review committees to be preventable.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
Black mamas are more than three times more likely to die from pregnancy-related causes, regardless of typically mitigating factors of education and socioeconomic status. Black mamas and birthing people are offered fewer treatment options, frequently experienced delays in care, and are subjected to biased decision-making.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
We know the devastating and harrowing stories, whether it's of April Valentine, Bridget Cromer, or my dear friend whose multiple complaints that about uncharacteristic headaches during her pregnancy went ignored by her doctor, leading to an emergency c-section to deliver her baby at one pound. Luckily, they both survived the ordeal, but not without lasting effects.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
Our communities are burdened with such stories of death, near death, and severe morbidity and injury. What happens afterwards? What protocols are in place to address adverse health safety events that likely resulted from discrimination or racism? What is our responsibility to work to ensure that these adverse events do not occur again?
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
This bill says, think about sociodemographic factors in the analysis of adverse events. It says, at least create a safety plan and protocols reflective of and responsive to the crisis at hand. It says, at minimum, report and track the data that gives us a more comprehensive and clearer picture of the issues.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
Our communities have the stories, scars visible and invisible, and inequitable health outcomes to demonstrate that bias, racial, gender and a slew of others exist in our healthcare system. Sorry. I know.
- Scott Wilk
Person
That's okay. You're well over that's okay.
- Onyemma Obiekea
Person
I apologize. I respectfully urge you to vote yes on this critically important bill. Thank you for your attention, and thank you Chair Bonta, for your leadership on this issue.
- Scott Wilk
Person
And I appreciate your passion.
- Vanessa Cajina
Person
Thank you very much, Mister chair and Members, Vanessa Cajina with KP Public Affairs, on behalf of the California Pan Ethnic Health Network, the proud co-sponsors of AB 3161. To put it very simply, if we don't have the data, we can't do anything about it. That's what this bill does.
- Vanessa Cajina
Person
We very much appreciate the leadership of Assembly Member Bonta on this bill and respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Anyone else in the room in support? Seeing none. I'm only kidding.
- Sandra Poole
Person
Good afternoon. Chair Member Sandra Poole from Western center on Law and Poverty in support. Thank you.
- Kim Robinson
Person
Hello, my name is Kim Robinson. I'm with Black Women for Wellness and Black Women for Wellness Action Project in strong support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Nayelia Storga
Person
Hello. I am Nayelia Storga. I attend the University of California, Irvine, and I am in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Cecilia Naya
Person
Hi, my name is Cecilia Naya, and. I attended Stanislaus State University. I'm from Stockton, and I'm in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Carol Gonzalez
Person
Hi, good afternoon. Carol Gonzalez. On behalf of HOPE, Hispanas Organized for Political Equality in support. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Clifton Wilson. On behalf of the California State Association of Psychiatrists in support. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Jennifer Robles
Person
Jennifer Robles with Health Access California in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Lan Lee
Person
Lan Lay from Asian Americans Advancing Justice, in strong support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you very much. Do we have anybody in the room in opposition? Seeing none? Pull it back to the Committee. Come on, people. Okay. You want to talk? Question?
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Just a.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Motion?
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
There was a. You guys reached an accord with the with the Committee, except the.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
I think that's a different bill.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
- Scott Wilk
Person
We took it out of file order.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
But the answer to that question is yes.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Okay. Okay. I really apologize. I'm deep in another rabbit hole. Thank you, but I'll move your bill.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
I know your other bill.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, Senator Allen. No other comments. I'll just make a quick one. I talked earlier today, in the Antelope Valley portion of my district, which is in LA County, the service provider area one. If you look at the data, it's horrible.
- Scott Wilk
Person
And particularly when you look at it, when it applies to Black women, infant mortality rate, what have you, it's like third world figures. It's embarrassing. So, there's probably multiple reasons for that. But certainly, we should be collecting the data on this to see how much of these issues play into that. So, I think it's a great bill. Plan to support it today. And with that, you may close.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Thank you. Senator. I think you said it best. We need to be able to ensure that we have the data to support. I want to thank our testimonial witnesses here who are expert in their fields and who have ensured that we have an opportunity to present this bill. With that, I respectfully request your aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Thank you. With that.
- Committee Secretary
Person
Okay. This is file item 59, AB 3161. The motion is do pass to the Senate Appropriations Committee. [Roll call] You have six to zero with members missing.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Six to zero. We'll leave that open for our colleagues to add on. Do you want to do Senator Allen's bill next or what bill do you want to do next?
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
We are going to do AB 846.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Perfect. So that's file item 57?
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Yes.
- Scott Wilk
Person
No, we're trying to keep you guys awake. It's a little hot in here. What's the recommendation? Okay, this has the recommendation do pass to Senate appropriations. So when you're ready, please proceed.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Good afternoon, Mister chair and members. I want to thank the committee for the time spent on this bill. I decided to author AB 846 to protect low income renters living in publicly assisted affordable housing from significant rent spikes.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
The low income housing tax credit program, or LIHTC, is a critical resource of funding for affordable housing production and rehabilitation nationwide. Unfortunately, the way that federal law regulates rents for LIHTC units provides no assurances that a tenant's rent will remain affordable over time.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Tenants have to income qualify for LIHTC units and will pay anywhere between 30% and 40% of their income in rent at the start of their tenancy. In LIHTC properties, there is no relationship between a tenant's income and their rent over time.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Rent increases are solely tied to increases in AMI for the county in which the property is located. LIHTC property owners are free to raise rent up to the new allowable maximum whenever AMI rises. This means that LIHTC tenants can face unpredictable and often high rent increases over time.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
They can become severely rent burdened, paying over 50% of their income in rent. Despite living in affordable housing, they are not living in housing that they can afford. There is a solution to this problem. States can impose additional restrictions on rents in LIHTC properties, and a growing number of states have done just that.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Taking advantage of this authority, the Tax Credit Allocation Committee, or TCAC, which oversees the LIHTC program, recently adopted a set of regulations that apply Arendcap to LIHTC properties as a condition of getting new tax credits.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
These regulations allow for a waiver from the cap to ensure the financial viability of a property and also include a number of other provisions that affordable housing developers have raised as critical during our negotiations over this bill over the last 18 months, including the ability to exceed the cap in order to bring a tenant up to the paying 30% of their income and rent.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Unfortunately, TCAC did not believe it had clear legal authority to apply the NUCAP to existing properties. This leaves tenants in the existing properties incredibly vulnerable to higher end increases we want to avoid. AB 846 provides the necessary clarity by directing TCAC to establish a limit on rent increases in existing LIHTC properties in California.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
I understand and respect the concerns that have been raised by nonprofit affordable housing developers, in particular about the need for some flexibility and to carefully consider how a caf would work within the already complex regulations that governed LIHTC properties.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
This bill does just that by asking TCAC to apply its carefully crafted new RenCap regulations to all existing LIHTC properties. It protects tenants and gives developers the flexibility they need. With me to speak on behalf of this bill is Anya Lawler from the California Rural Legal Assistance Foundation and Karen Katz from Legal Services of Northern California.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
I think I didn't say that. Your last name right? I. No, that's okay.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Welcome back. Each get two minutes hello again.
- Karen Kontz
Person
Karen Kontz, regional council for housing at Legal Services of Northern California. The vast majority of affordable housing in our 23 county service area is funded at least in part through the LIHTC program. In Orville, there are two new LIHTC properties which came into service last year. One serves seniors and one serves families.
- Karen Kontz
Person
LSNC's Chico office has represented several clients at the property for low income seniors who received multiple rent increases in a year at this senior property. Our clients moved into their brand new affordable units in the fall of 2023. The rent for a one bedroom apartment at 60% of the AMI was dollar 808.
- Karen Kontz
Person
Their rent went up to 847 in March 2024, and the tenants face another increase to 950 in September. This is an 18% increase in less than a year. The folks who live at this property, like all senior LIHTC buildings, are primarily on fixed incomes.
- Karen Kontz
Person
Their incomes do not increase when the AMIs come out every year, they only become more rent burdened. At another complex for families run by the same company in Orville, rents have been increased by 20% in one year through multiple rent increases.
- Karen Kontz
Person
These mid lease rent increases are currently allowed by federal regulations, but those same regulations also give states the authority to limit them, as a number of states have done.
- Karen Kontz
Person
The seniors and families who just moved into these new LIHTC properties are illustrative of the experience of thousands of LIHTC tenants across the state, many of them seniors and folks on fixed incomes who make it off years long wait lists finally get into LIHTC housing that they are told will be affordable, only to find the rent quickly becomes affordable and the housing untenable.
- Karen Kontz
Person
And for these reasons, LSNC supports requiring TCAC to limit rent gouging on existing properties. Thank you.
- Anya Lawler
Person
Good afternoon, Mister chair and members Anya Lawler here today on behalf of the California Rural Legal Assistance foundation. In the 18 months we've been working on this B\bill, we've gathered hundreds of tenant stories similar to the ones Karen just spoke about. This is a publicly funded program designed specifically to produce housing affordable to lower income households.
- Anya Lawler
Person
It's hard to see how these stories are consistent with the program's intent. When affordable housing groups asked to be exempted from the state's Tenant Protection act in 2019, the argument was that rent gouging wasn't an issue in these properties because the regulations of programs such as LIHTC already prevent excessive rent increases. Clearly, this is not the case.
- Anya Lawler
Person
I want to specifically address concerns we've heard about applying rent cap to existing LIHTC properties. The average TCAC project is underwritten with the assumption of 2.5% to 3.5% annual rent growth.
- Anya Lawler
Person
Assuming TCAC complies with this bill by applying its existing cap on prospective properties, which is 5% plus CPI, or no more than 10% identical to the cap that applies to market rate apartments under the Tenant Protection Act, such a cap would not impact a project's overall financing assumptions over time.
- Anya Lawler
Person
In addition, as as the Assembly Member has said, federal law expressly allows states to regulate LIHTC rent increases to further state housing goals. And I would assume that affordable housing for low income people is a state goal.
- Anya Lawler
Person
At least 10 states already do so, and as far as we know, none of these states policies are limited only to new properties, and none of them have been challenged in court.
- Anya Lawler
Person
HUD itself has also already imposed some modest limits on rent increases that apply to both new and existing LIHTC properties to help stem the most egregious rent hikes, most recently just this year. To the extent that there's a concern about a precedent, the Federal Government has already set that precedent.
- Anya Lawler
Person
The state has a strong interest in ensuring that the significant state and federal investments in LIHTC result in housing that is consistent with the program's purpose of providing affordable housing to low income people. AB 846 advances this interest. Thank you and I respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you so much. Anybody else in the room in support?
- Brian Augusta
Person
Good afternoon, Mister chair and members. Brian Augusta on behalf of the Public Interest Law Project and the National Housing Law Project in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, sir.
- Danessa Attilas
Person
Good afternoon. Danessa Attilas, with Indivisible California StateStrong, representing 80 indivisible groups across California in strong support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Neha Saju
Person
Neha Saju, on behalf of the Western Center on Law and Poverty and Public Advocates, proud co sponsors of the bill in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Good afternoon. -- on behalf of the California Community foundation in support.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you very much. Seeing no one else, do we have anyone here in the room in opposition? Way in the back. Okay. You have. You can come up here or you can do it there, wherever you're most comfortable. And I'm going to turn the gavel back over to our esteemed chair.
- Graciela Castillo-Krings
Person
Mr. Chair and members Graciela Castillo-Krings, here on behalf of the California Housing Consortium. We are a nonpartisan advocacy organization that is really working towards the production and preservation of affordable housing. We really appreciate all the conversations that we have been having with the sponsors and also with the author's office.
- Graciela Castillo-Krings
Person
But our concern, and we don't have an opposed position. Actually, our position is opposed unless amended. And what we would like to see is we actually agree with the TCAC regulations. They actually try to have a balanced role for advocacy of both tenants and for the developers and owners of affordable housing.
- Graciela Castillo-Krings
Person
What we would like to see is actually preemption language in the bill so that we can have one state standard that actually governs how these LIHTC properties are regulated when it comes to rents. And that is what we are asking for.
- Graciela Castillo-Krings
Person
Understand that that might not be something that the committee is considering at this point, but given everything that has happened with COVID given everything that we are experiencing when it comes to insurance increases, we really think that providing one standard that creates stability and certainty for a lot of the developers and owners of affordable housing is really important.
- Graciela Castillo-Krings
Person
So we look forward to additional discussions with this committee and with the author to see if there's a compromise that can be reached. Thank you so much.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in opposition, please approach the microphone.
- Katherine Charles
Person
Good afternoon, chair and members. Katherine Charles, on behalf of Housing California and respectful opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Caitlin Johnson
Person
Good afternoon. Caitlin Johnson with Political Solutions on behalf of California Council for Affordable Housing. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Thank you very much. All right, anyone else in opposition? Seeing no one else approached the mic, let's bring back committee. Questions by Committee Members? Seeing no questions, or is there a motion? Is there a motion? Senator Ashby moves the bill. All right. Would you like to close?
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Thank you, members. I shared the story with the permission of my mother. She moved into a housing apartment in Richmond, California. When she retired because she wanted to be closer to her grandchildren, she. When she started living there, she was on.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
She was working a part time job in order to be able to retire, and she was, at the time, at 30% of rent. In terms of her total burden from her income. By the time she left, there had been a 20% increase in the amount of rent that she paid.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
At which point she had to turn to me and say, I don't think I can afford to live in California anymore. This bill is very straightforward. It essentially allows us to be able to have LIHTC properties continue to be affordable, not only for the prospective properties that will come, but also the ones that are already in existence.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
And with that, I respectfully request your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty, thank you very much. All right, madam Chief counsel, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item 57, AB 846. The motion is do pass to Senate Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call] That's five to two with members missing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty, thank you very much. Next bill is file number 58, AB 2239. This is a quick one, so it could be right. All right, Assemblymember Bonta, the floor is yours.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Good afternoon, chair and committee members. First, I want to start by saying I accept the committee amendment.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
I want to note that due to time constraints, language adopted in energy, utilities and communications, which some of you just saw moments ago around who is covered under the definition of covered entities in this bill, is missing key guardrails that I look forward to working with both this committee staff and others to add that bill language at a later date.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Should it be moved forward. AB 2239 addresses a critical issue in our digital age, ensuring equitable access to broadband Internet services for all Californians. As you will hear from my witnesses, Californians who live in areas with predominantly low income residents and people of color are disproportionately disconnected.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
In light of the increasing reliance on digital technologies for education, work, healthcare and communication, it is imperative that we prevent digital discrimination and promote fairness and access to such an essential service here in California. First, AB 2239 adopts the FCC definition of digital discrimination, which establishes a clear definition for digital discrimination of access.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
This definition provides a framework for identifying and addressing discriminatory practices in broadband Internet provision.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
In addition, AB 2239 expressly prohibits Internet service providers and with the amendments, also prohibit covered entities from engaging in digital discrimination of access, which is defined as policies or practices that disparately or differentially impact consumers access based on factors such as race, ethnicity, religion, or national origin.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Members, we do not know what the future of broadband will be, but what the future of broadband shouldn't be is discriminatory. Here to testify in support are Paul Goodman, legal counsel at the Center for Accessible Technology, and Patrick Messac, Director of Oakland Undivided.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. First witness, please.
- Patrick Messac
Person
Thank you, assemblymember Bonta, chair, Umberg, Vice Chair, Wilk, and members of the committee. I'm Patrick Messac, Director of Oakland Undivided. We are co sponsors of AB 2239, along with the California Alliance for Digital Equity, California Community Foundation, NextGen California, and the Children's Partnership.
- Patrick Messac
Person
I'm speaking today for all of us and the millions of Californians our coalition co electively serves. As my Assembly Member shared the facts of the digital divide in California are stark. Race and income are the best predictors of whether you're stuck on the wrong side of the digital divide.
- Patrick Messac
Person
Communities that are predominantly low income and those that are predominantly non white consistently, systematically have fewer options, receive worse service, and pay more for that service.
- Patrick Messac
Person
In Oakland, we tested more than 15,000 locations and documented that the connections in the highest income, widest zip code were, on average, 10 times faster than in our poorest community, with the highest percentage of people of color, despite residents subscribing to and paying for similar tiers of service patterns mirroring redlining from the 1930s, our partners at the Fresno Coalition for Digital Inclusion have documented 15 million data points collected from tens of thousands of locations over that time, documenting the same pattern.
- Patrick Messac
Person
You might assume that these wealthy communities have higher quality connections because they pay more for Internet. But the opposite is true. Poor communities pay more for worst Internet.
- Patrick Messac
Person
In LA, the California Community foundation has documented in LA, the California Community foundation has documented that the advertised cost of Internet service is systematically higher in neighborhoods with higher poverty rates. Independent researchers have verified these findings at scale.
- Patrick Messac
Person
A team at UC Santa Barbara studied more than 35,000 residential addresses in the City of Los Angeles and concluded that, quote, wealthier areas receive more bandwidth for less money.
- Patrick Messac
Person
We cannot claim to care about broadband for all while ignoring the stark reality of the disparate impact of the policies and practices that have delivered an enduring, persistent digital divide and continue to exacerbate exacerbate it.
- Patrick Messac
Person
On behalf of the bill's sponsors and the extensive list of supporters, I urge this committee to see past the smokescreens, the confusing hypotheticals, and the scare mongering I've known to be seen in this discussion of the bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. Thank you. Urge an aye vote.
- Paul Goodman
Person
Good afternoon. My name is Paul Goodman. I'm a legal counsel at the Center for Accessible Technology. And for the last 15 years, the focus of my work has been the intersection between telecommunications policy discrimination, historical discrimination, and antitrust. My presentations, I apologize, seem to be a little bit drier.
- Paul Goodman
Person
But during this whole discussion of this bill, one thing's very clear, that there have been disparate impacts on communities of color when it comes to broadband access. What there, I think, seems to be a lack of clarity about is what it actually takes to prove a disparate impact.
- Paul Goodman
Person
And, Secretary Stern, I want to thank you for asking this question earlier today. The FCC order actually does an excellent job of talking about the different burdens of proof for different kinds of behavior. The first two are for showing intentional behavior, which I don't think is an issue here.
- Paul Goodman
Person
The disparate impact basically says you have to prove that a policy or practice causes a disparate impact. I will come back to that in a moment. If that happens, then a provider or the person being accused of engaging in discrimination has a chance to show that there was a technical or economic reason that made this infeasible.
- Paul Goodman
Person
Also that there was no reasonably achievable, less discriminating alternative. I'll point out that that second issue, technical economic feasibility, there's actually broader latitudes for providers in this bill because it includes a legitimate technical or economic justification. But let me talk about the burden of proof.
- Paul Goodman
Person
To show that there's been a disparate impact, you have to show that there's a protected class. Then you have to compare that protected class to other similarly situated, say, consumers. And that sample has to be representative. So you have to show that your sample is representative.
- Paul Goodman
Person
And then there are a number of different ways to determine how significant that impact is. The sort of most straight forward one is doing some statistical analysis, and if it's two or three standard deviations away from the norm, that's a flag that there's a problem.
- Paul Goodman
Person
There's also what called the four fifths rule, where, say, if you can show that black applicants for a job take a job exam and they're passing that exam at 80% the rate of white applicants, that's an indication that it's significant.
- Paul Goodman
Person
And also which I think is a really clever factor, is that you look at the difference in the magnitude of impacts. If I'm in a neighbor, predominantly white, neighborhood, and I'm getting two gigabit speeds. And the neighborhood next to me is predominantly black and gets one gigabit speeds. That's quite a bit different between.
- Paul Goodman
Person
Quite a bit different than two gigabits and say digital subscriber line service, which we must more extreme. And then finally you have to show causation. So it's not enough that you just say this.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Great impact. I'm guessing you urge an aye vote also.
- Paul Goodman
Person
Absolutely.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you so much. Thank you very much. All right, others in support, please approach the microphone, give us your name, your affiliation and your position. And if you're standing in the hallway, now would be a good time if you wish to testify in this bill, to come into the room, whether in support or opposition, go ahead.
- Nicole Wordelman
Person
Nicole Wordelman, on behalf of the Children's Partnership, co sponsor, Fresno Coalition for Digital Inclusion and Unite LA in support.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
-- on behalf of the Electronic Frontier foundation in support. Thank you.
- Oracio Gonzalez
Person
Horacio Gonzalez on behalf of the California Alliance for Digital Equity and NextGen California, two co sponsors of the bill in strong support. Thank you.
- Shirley Lamb
Person
Hello, my name is Shirley Lamb with Insure the Uninsured Project and supported this bill. Also expressing support on behalf of the Community Clinic Association of Los Angeles County, everyone on Hack the Hood, Oakland Unified School District Tech Repair Program, Oakland National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, Oakland Youth Commission and the Tech Exchange. Thank you.
- Bella Kern
Person
Bella Kern on behalf of Michelson Center For Public Policy and support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Stella Johnson
Person
Stella Johnson on behalf of San Francisco Unified School District in support.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
-- on behalf of the California Community Foundation, co sponsor and support. And I have 15 others. Great public schools now, alliance for a Better community, community coalition of the Antelope Valley Destination, Crenshaw Arts for LA communities and schools of Los Angeles Healing and Justice center, innovative or innovate public schools, families in schools, Latino Equality alliance, our voice, communities for quality education, Vara Los Ninos Southeast Community Development Corporation, United Parents and students and the Angeleno project in strong support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Beth Malinowski
Person
Good afternoon. Beth Malinowski with SEIU California in support.
- Annie Chou
Person
Annie Chao at the California Teachers Association in support
- Andrea Liebenbaum
Person
Tracy Rosenburg on behalf of Media Alliance in support.
- Andrea Liebenbaum
Person
Andy Liebenbaum on behalf of the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors and support
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Cynthia Gomez, Deputy Director of state policy and advocacy with the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Beira Orellana
Person
My name is Beira Orellana. I support. Thank you.
- Sasha Horwitz
Person
Sasha Horwitz, Los Angeles Unified School District in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Irma Escobar
Person
Irma Janet Escobar with Chilrla is support
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Adria Tinnan
Person
Hi, Doctor Adria Tinnan. I am the Director of race equity policy at the Utility Reform Network, and we have an in between position. We are strongly in support of the principles of this bill, but we are deeply concerned about California passing law that is weaker than federal law. We urge the committee to restore.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Are you in support? Are you in support? Sorry? Are you in support or opposition?
- Adria Tinnan
Person
Just giving an in between position right here. Our official letter is opposed unless amend.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, well, go ahead and send me a letter. Thank you so much. Okay. Okay. Thank you. All right, let's now turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2239 please approach. Before we take opposition, I have to apologize, because apparently they're holding the roll open in housing for me.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
So I wanted to ask assemblymember Bonta, thank you very much for spending as much quality time as you have with me on this particular issue, incredibly important issue, and I appreciate your dedicated, dedication, determination. One of the things that we had discussed is the enforcement.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
One of the things I was concerned about was the enforcement of the bill. I have not issued a recommendation yet, but I would ask you if we could limit enforcement to the Attorney General.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
If we get limited enforcement to the Attorney General, if you're amenable to that amendment, then I am prepared to both vote I and make a recommendation. The committee support the bill. So I'm interested in your response before I leave.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Thank you, chair. And thank you for engaging in conversation with me late into the night on this. I very much appreciate your dedication. I certainly appreciate the chair's recommendation and am willing to accept that amendment or a level of enforcement limited to the Attorney General, if you think that's appropriate.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Well, I do so. Okay. Well, then. Then I accept your commitment. And the next committee, I believe, is going to appropriations after this leaves this committee, should it leave the committee then. Thank you. Thank you for that. And I'll be back. Senator Wilk, thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
This is like deja vu all over again. Did I see you guys this morning? Anyway, you each have two minutes, and please start.
- Amanda Gualderama
Person
Thank you. Amanda Gualderama with Cal Broadband. While we appreciate the goal of AB 2239 we disagree with the method and must oppose the bill. It is important to note that the FCC rule to which this bill is modeled after is under litigation within the federal court, currently with opening arguments beginning in September.
- Amanda Gualderama
Person
The disagreement between the difference in liability standards is part of this litigation. So utilizing the standard and state statute is premature and is right for its own litigation challenge. Similar to the FCCs. The disparate impact standard does not require any intent to discriminate.
- Amanda Gualderama
Person
For example, plaintiffs could allege that failure to upgrade or deploy new technologies in all communities simultaneously has a disparate impact. Because this situation will increase the risk of litigation, it may undermine the willingness of providers to undertake new deployments or new providers to enter the market.
- Amanda Gualderama
Person
The disparate treatment standard is a better standard and would provide an enforceable framework in California without relying on the disputed aspects of the FCC rule. Under the disparate treatment standard, broadband providers would have a clear understanding of their responsibilities under the law and what would not fear the risk of unwarranted litigation.
- Amanda Gualderama
Person
It has been said that disparate treatment standard is too high a bar for public attorneys to meet that they would need a smoking gun to provide discrimination. Certainly we are not suggesting that our public attorneys are not capable of meeting the constitutional standards. A disparate treatment standard does not require a smoking gun.
- Amanda Gualderama
Person
Mere circumstantial evidence would be relevant to proving intent. Currently, California has the benefit of being the seat of investment for the technology sector, including broadband infrastructure. Policies such as imposing a disparate impact standard will have a chilling effect regarding growth, upgrades and innovation.
- Amanda Gualderama
Person
Ensuring access to broadband infrastructure is an important issue to everyone, which is why we must oppose AB 2239 as it continues to have the disparate impact standard, which will have negative unintended consequences.
- Scott Wilk
Person
You, 1 minute, 48 seconds. That's very professional. I don't know how you're going to outdo your.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
I'm taking all my time.
- Scott Wilk
Person
No, but I'm just saying I don't know how you can do your speech to sporn it, but I'm curious to see if you can anyway.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
Well, I'm going to adjust mine a little bit because I'm the pastor, Andre Chappell, senior pastor of Faith Church LA, in the Crenshaw area and Compton.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
I guess I'm kind of blown away that, and I look around the room, there's something that's obvious here that the people who are actually living this reality of any kind of discrimination relative to the black community, I'm kind of like the only one in here, and I'm kind of blown away that, you know, everybody's speaking about what affects us.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
And I'm in the trenches a couple times a week doing workshops with the community. I don't know where these numbers about the Internet and broadband stuff are coming from because they're not realistic for where I live, where I pastor, where I preach. Let me be clear, ensuring that every family, especially people of color are served with quality broadband is vital to all of California.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
But from what I'm looking at, this bill is not going to do that. In fact, it's going to do the opposite. It actually slows down their deploying broadband for all and likely will end programs like what I host for my community, that I fight for every day.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
The problem with the bill is the definition of discrimination. We know that civil rights laws have always historically been designed to fix situations where bad actors intentionally, intentionally discriminate against people because of who they are. Unfortunately, this bill tries to expand that definition and instead use disparate impact standards.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
That's going to likely result in broadband providers being served big lawsuits and a lot of penalties, which is going to cause them to pull back just having good business practices. And at the end of the day, without the notes, I'm really in fear that we'll lose support for the programs that we operate.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
We don't expect the Internet providers to do the work that we're supposed to do on the ground, but we need them to have responsibility to help us do it. And so I heard a couple times that people weren't too worried about the unintended consequences. Well, I'm the victim of that and I'm worried about that.
- Pastor Chappell
Person
So I hope you all would consider the heart of people who have, who going through this, you know, every day and, you know, rewrite this or something. But at this point, respectfully, we would hope that you would oppose it.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All right, thank you, pastor. Anyone in the room in opposition, please come. And now me too. Testimony name organization if you have one, and your position on the bill.
- Margrete Snyder
Person
Hi, Meg Snyder, Axiom Advisors, on behalf of the California Building Industry Association, opposed.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Yolanda Benson
Person
Good afternoon. Yolanda Benson for US Telecom, the broadband association strongly opposed to this to 2239.
- Missy Johnson
Person
Good afternoon. Missy Johnson on behalf of the California Hispanic Chambers of Commerce. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. Well done.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
Courtney Jensen, on behalf of Civil Justice Association of California, in opposition. Thank you. Thank you.
- Jonathan Ehrenbell
Person
Jonathan Ehrenbell, on behalf of CTIA, the Trade Association for the Wireless Industry, in opposition.
- Roxanne Gould
Person
Thank you. Roxanne Gould with the Wireless Infrastructure Association, a way better Association than his. In opposition.
- Dean Talley
Person
Dean Taylor with the California Manufacturers and Technology Association, opposed.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, sir.
- Audra Hartmann
Person
Good afternoon. Audra Hartmann, on behalf of CalCom, we're opposed.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
Lizzie Cootsona here on behalf of TechNet in respectful opposition. Thank you. Great.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you so much. Okay, I pulled back to the committee and I'm so glad you're here because you're going to energize us through all this heat. So, please. You've got the floor, Senator Stern.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Don't count on me for that. But just briefly, since we heard this bill earlier in energy, I wanted to follow up on what sounded like a productive path. I did understand that the chair and author had a colloquy about scope of enforcement. So it sounds like that piece, I guess, has been accepted.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
The piece I wanted to sort of drill down on was what the lead witness was touching on standards, proof in terms of establishing disparate impact. And I wanted to just.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
You were almost through your factors during the opening statement, but just to summarize, I took some notes on it, but that the idea that I heard a willingness or an openness to, from the author is to, in more granular detail, specify what that standard of proof would be and specifically what the factors would be, to establish the prima facie case by accurately and completely identifying the policy or practice at issue.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Establishing that policy at issue was a protected class. So you talked about the protected class identification and then establishing sufficient harm to constitute a violation. And the causation piece. Those are sort of the sort of four key factors in that prima facie case.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
And then once the plaintiff had established that, then the defendant may then respond and the burden can shift back, that they can then establish that a challenge, policy or practice is necessary to achieve the substantial, legitimate non discriminatory interests, some of which were outlined in the energy Committee amendments.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
And then in event of such a showing that the action that the plaintiff would have to show there must show that there's a less discriminatory alternative. I think you had said exhausting reasonable alternatives or reasonably available or achievable alternatives.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I know that's a lot of detail, but I wanted to either author or sponsor to see if that seemed like we're on the right track and somewhere where we could go so that these folks know what's coming and we don't have to go through a whole round of litigation just to establish a proof standard.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So at least we could maybe cross that bridge. Statutorily, even some of these other issues are going to be outstanding.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Senator, I'll address just as a point of order before I. Personal privilege, if I may. Sir, I'm a black Latina. I'm sitting right here.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Perhaps I wasn't in front of you, but I do represent the communities from which I come from, and I think we heard from many people in our community who are black and brown, who are sure and certain to know that we need to be able to have this legislation move forward and you were able to hear from them.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Just. I'll go back to my response now. Senator Stern, I think that you are rightfully on the right path. One of the points of tension in this legislation, as I understand it, is that the FCC has the kind of the regulatory force to be able to hear claims and kind of, and review them.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
And we've taken a path through this legislation that is based on the use or application of public attorneys to be able to do that.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Now with this amendment, the Attorney General and what it is missing from what we're able to do in terms of articulation, of disparate impact is ensure that we have kind of a pre articulation or a set of factors that would guide the public attorneys from, from really considering whether or not we are, they have a case.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
They would do that anyway when they were establishing the facts of the case. I think the guidance to kind of put in statute that would allow that to be held, it's aligned with anti discrimination juris law, as we know before.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
I don't, I believe that it is a very smart and deliberate way for us to be able to kind of have that included in the, in the determination in the statute. So I would be comfortable with pursuing that. And unfortunately, we are on such a tight timeframe, we haven't been able to do that.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Had the great idea this morning in uni, and should this bill move out of this committee, I'm committed to exploring.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
That with that commitment and recognizing the constraints and that tricky for members, too, because you can't have everything in writing here. That commitment means enough to me, I think, to keep moving this bill, and I appreciate the authenticity of the story you're bringing, and I wouldn't allow any testimony to negate that. We know it's real.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
We know it's real for people out there, and it's no disrespect to you, sir, but everyone's, you know, you can get the short end of the stick on one end and it doesn't take anything away from the other. Right. So anyhow, thank you for that.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Senator Roth.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair. You know, some of us haven't had a lot of time to read this analysis, but I'm somewhat familiar, I used to be familiar with disparate impact in the employment and other settings where you sort of have a, it's easier to, you know, a facially neutral policy that has a disparate impact on members of a protected group.
- Richard Roth
Person
Pretty easy to understand that. Unintentional, don't intend it, but it happens. So, you have a group of employees, or you have a group of students in an educational setting or somewhere else. How do you see this policy working?
- Richard Roth
Person
When you're talking about people laying down broadband cable or whatever in wide areas, won't there always be a disparate impact somewhere? And every time someone wants to expand broadband access in a large area is going to lay some cable, won't that open?
- Richard Roth
Person
I haven't had a lot of time to think through this, which is why I'm going to sort of make a statement and sort of ask a question.
- Richard Roth
Person
Won't that always open up disparate impact claims because one neighborhood or one region is going to claim that the policy, in this case, the decision to lay this broadband down, is having a disparate impact, and then what? Neutral policy, disparate impact. And I guess you can defend it by doing something.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
You can defend it by proposing that you have a legitimate business interest in being able to do so, or that it is technically infeasible or economically infeasible. That is a part of this, part of this legislation.
- Richard Roth
Person
And that's a legal process that I'm familiar with. And I'm also familiar with the length of time that it takes to do these things. And we see this unrelated but difficult process play out in CEQA and development all the time. And I'm just wondering why the decision was made, I guess, to put talk about disparate impact as opposed to disparate treatment, which is a more intentional, there's some intentionality there with making a decision to lay a broadband cable here as opposed to there.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Right. Well, I'll begin and would ask that my witnesses certainly respond to that. Right now, Internet service is an essential need to be able to function.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
So, just as going to school is, just as being able to hold a job and have a job and not be discriminated against in those circumstances, I believe that making sure that we have the ability to look at the experience of communities and to have the ability to have communities speak to the fact that they have a different experience, that is not ensuring that they have what they need or what they can in a particular situation.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
We have our witness here, Patrick Messick from Oakland Undivided, who's able to, through advocacy and the organization, pull together a lot of data around the differential experience that a particular community is having. So, we have the ability to have insight into the fact that some people are having a different experience.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
And through this legislation, we are able to essentially have that codified experience be put through an analysis that determines whether or not that experience is linked to a particular policy and whether that experience is severe enough or differential enough that it deserves the opportunity to be able to have a remedy around that. So.
- Richard Roth
Person
What's the remedy?
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Well, the remedy is in.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
An order to put it in?
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
The remedy is injunctive relief. So, perhaps on the deployment or kind of modify as certainly, we have instances where fiber is laid, it needs to be, it needs to be improved upon, and we have an infrastructure investment that we're making in the billions of dollars where there is an ever-increasing or evolving deployment of services.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
So, that would be essentially what the injunctive relief would be to help to fix the problem or to ensure it is, if it's, if it's tied to a particular practice or policy that we know led to that discriminatory impact. I don't know if.
- Richard Roth
Person
I just question whether the wrapping, there is a problem. We were just talking about it in the education committee, having to do with online education and whether students could, why couldn't they take a series of courses? This happened to be nursing courses online and very good question.
- Richard Roth
Person
And of course, they should be able to. But the problem is in some areas of the state there's limited broadband access and reliable access. And so that makes it very difficult if you're trying to get through an educational program when half of your course disappears, and you can't, your class, and you can't get the class. So, I'm a firm believer as we need to figure this out.
- Richard Roth
Person
I'm just wondering if wrapping this in the cloth of discrimination and disparate impact as opposed to intentional discrimination, discriminatory treatment, where broadband companies make a decision. There are not enough people there, they don't make enough money, they can't pay our bills, we're not going to subsidize the, the service, which would be treatment, probably intentional.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Probably, well, probably, but.
- Richard Roth
Person
As opposed to deciding that, you know, it's more convenient to go over here or it's cheaper for us to put the line over here as opposed, which would be a neutral policy but could have a disparate impact.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Facially neutral, potentially. And that's essentially what we're seeking to do, ensure that we have an opportunity to have whole communities speak to the discrimination or the differential experience that they're having and have that oriented around how they might be able to have our ISP providers and covered entities remedy that. We.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Miss Betty, who I met on a tour, has no idea why her Internet service isn't working. Miss Betty and her neighbors have no idea why her Internet service isn't working.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
We need to be able to have the ability to kind of unpack that. We as individuals who are going through this experience, don't have the ability to go up against the Goliath of industry, to be able to understand whether or not the experience that they're having is not one that they should be having because of some kind of practice or policy related to that experience.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
And that is why we are focused on disparate impact. I'm going to ask my witnesses to pipe in on this one.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Roth. Very briefly, I would urge us to think about these systems over time. We have 30 years of broadband deployment that has left behind systematic gaps. Build out is consistently over time bypassing communities, majority made up of protected classes.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
If we're looking for a really concrete example, we can look to concrete pricing disparities. These are pulled up from very recently. You can look at addresses by the same company for the same speed plan not but a mile away. You're getting costs that are $20 higher. So.
- Scott Wilk
Person
You're supposed to get permission before you use a prop.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
My apologies. I didn't realize that.
- Scott Wilk
Person
He didn't know. I'm going to allow it
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Ok, I'm sorry about that. So, I would just encourage us to think about the patterns that have been well documented for decades, including the CPUC's network exam, which shows disparate investment in higher-income communities.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We have to start looking at this as a 30-year problem in the making, that we can begin to address some of the most egregious examples of.
- Richard Roth
Person
Isn't this regulated by the CPUC? I don't remember. Who handles broadband?
- Richard Roth
Person
I can respond to that as someone. Who's been practicing at the CPUC.
- Richard Roth
Person
Perfect. You're on.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
So, it's CPUC and the Department of Technology have handled broadband.
- Richard Roth
Person
Well, my question is, why isn't this, you know, why isn't this being handled in that context as opposed to wrapping it in the cloth of discrimination and having to deal with disparate impact analysis?
- Richard Roth
Person
What I think is going to happen, frankly, is I think these companies and the proposals are going to be in addition to the PUC process and everything that goes on or doesn't go on there are going to be wrapped in a discrimination process, and disparate treatment is easier to process, prosecute, and easier to defend if you have a defense. Disparate impact is sort of difficult.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Disparate impact is also more difficult to actually establish.
- Richard Roth
Person
It is more difficult to establish, too, which adds to the process, adds to the length of the process, because you're going to have to. I'm not going to belabor this, Mister Chair, but I have some concerns, you know, how much I respect you, Madam Chair, so I just wanted to ask my questions. I'm going to stop.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Mister Chair. Appreciate the patience.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Absolutely.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I appreciate the discussion. Senator Ashby.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
Yes. Hi, assemblywoman. How are you doing? This is the second time today that I have seen you present this bill.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
And I know the makeup of, of this Committee may not make you feel right at home, but had you seen her earlier today, the chairperson of that committee looks just like you and lives in Los Angeles, too, and also supported her bill, and she worked heavily with him on amendments as well.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
And then I just, I want to say a couple of things because, you know, this bill's tough, but we're in here to grapple with the tough issues. And I represent Sacramento, and I'm White, obviously, but I lived in low-income housing in this city that I now get to be the Senator for.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
And I raised a little boy by myself, and I used food stamps, and I put myself through law school and undergrad. And I can tell you that, you know, where you live in this town, there's a really big difference in your life expectancy, sometimes just even five minutes apart.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
I get to live in this really nice community now called Natomas. But if you drive five minutes from me to Del Paso Heights, your life expectancy drops over a decade. And some of it has to do with access to resources.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
And while there are many definitions in here that are a bit challenging, I think she's one by one working her way through them. Senator Roth.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
She's just one by one just trying to press forward through a process that makes it so that south central LA, and so that Del Paso Heights and Oak Park, and, God bless her, Oakland, don't get left behind, because it's when big companies come in, and this is no fault of them.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
This is not a criticism of big companies. It's easy to add resources in fancy communities because they're going to utilize it and they're going to make money there. But we, we have a duty to make sure that everybody in California can access the Internet so that they can get to those resources.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
I mean, think about all the things. Our lives are totally dependent on it right now. And when COVID happened, is there anything we learned more than that? Access was a lifeline, especially for kids.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
I know, just like many people in this room, and some of the people who right now are struggling with her bill were some of our best actors, actually, in helping us make sure we found every kid. And we got them computers and we got them Internet.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
I mean, hard for me to even think of somebody in Sacramento who did more than Comcast. They were really helpful.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
So, this is just one more way of grappling with the issue of disparity and trying to find pathways while we're here in this space, while the people like us are here, to make sure that we help as many communities as possible, put them on a trajectory to success.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
One great thing about the Legislature is that this will keep. She'll keep working on this all the way through the summer. She's got more time on the clock. There might be some things she can address with, with folks before it comes up for a final vote.
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
And even next year, if she needed to, she could run another bill, or so could somebody else. So, could Mister Bryan. So could I, if there was some piece of this that we needed to adjust or add on to. And so, for all of those reasons, not only am I supporting you today, but I'm really proud of you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Is that a motion?
- Angelique Ashby
Legislator
Yes.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Great. Any other comments? Seeing none. Assemblywoman you may close.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Well, thank you so much and I really appreciate the robust discussion that we've had individually. Thank you to Senator Ashby and Senators Roth and the Committee Chair for being able to afford us the opportunity to be here in this moment. I worked as a consultant for the FCC, developing out the National Broadband Initiative for Education.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
It's where I started almost 20 years ago, kind of engaged in this work. More importantly, I worked for several years handing out tablets to mothers to be able to ensure that they had the means to be able to have their children engage in stronger early learning experiences.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
At a shop in West Oakland, where we were running thousands of tablets, where we partnered with amazing ISP providers like Comcast and AT&T to offer more affordable Internet services.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
And the center where I worked didn't have the ability to do the uploading and downloading of the apps that we were trying to load onto our devices because we didn't have adequate Internet service. This is deeply personal to me.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
It's deeply personal to the communities that I represent and the reason why I believe we need to have this higher standard of disparate impact and to be able to look at this from a lens of whether or not there exists discrimination at any point in time around this essential service is because it's just as essential as our education.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
It's just as essential as ensuring that you're able to have a job. It's just as essential as ensuring that we have a healthcare system that isn't discriminatory.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
And this is our time, given the fact that the FCC has already passed a regulation that mirrors this Bill, to be able to ensure that every Californian has the ability to receive access to the Internet, and to do so in a way that allows them and affords our communities, our most vulnerable communities, a remedy that signals that we are protecting this resource with all our might, given the massive amounts of investments that the State of California is making to ensure broadband for all.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
And with that, I respectfully request your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. There's been a motion by Senator Ashby. All right, Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 58, AB 2239. The motion is to pass, as amended, to Senate Appropriations. [Roll call] Four to two.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Four to two. We're gonna put that on call. Thank you very much.
- Mia Bonta
Legislator
Thank you, Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, I see. Who's next?
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Assembly Member Connolly.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I see Assembly. Is Assembly Member Gabriel here? If not, then Assembly Member Connolly. All right, Assembly Member Connolly. Welcome to the oven.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
We were forewarned by TV. Thank you, Senator Laird.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, some of them. Member Connally, item 51, AB 2149.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Thank you, chair. And Members, I would like to begin by thanking the Committee staff for their work on this Bill, and I will be accepting the Committee's amendments. Members, today I'm proud to present AB 2149, which will be known as the Alex Quanbeck Gate Safety act in 2019. We suffered a tragedy in Marin County.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Seven year old Alex Quanbeck was at his school playing with his friends and went to close a 300 pound gate to stop their football from rolling into the nearby alley. As he started to roll, the gate closed. The gate came off its rails and fell and crushed Alex, killing him.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
This, unfortunately, is a not uncommon occurrence in California and throughout the country. Just last November, tragedy struck again in Tucson, Arizona, when a nine-year-old girl was helping close a gate at her school, which came loose from its support and fell and killed her.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
There are no existing statewide or federal laws requiring heavy duty gates to be inspected or repaired on a regular basis without any protections. When a gate is poorly designed, damaged or just overused, it has a risk of disconnecting from its supports and falling. These gates can be up to 20 or 30ft long and up to 8ft tall.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
They often weigh between 300 to 400 pounds, making it almost impossible for someone crushed underneath to lift the gate and escape. AB 2149 calls for these gates to be installed with what's known as a positive stop, literally a $50 piece of metal that stops a gate from toppling over if it becomes separated from its track.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
This Bill only applies to gates that weigh more than 50 pounds and larger than 4ft wide or 7ft tall. The Bill, as amended, will now only apply to gates currently installed in public schools and parks.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Going forward, these requirements will be applied to all new gates intended for use by the public, an entire community or neighborhood, or any considerable number of persons.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
It will be the responsibility of the gate owner to make sure their gate is inspected at least once, no less than every 10 years, and local building officials will only have to become involved in egregious cases.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
The Bill also gives local building officials and building departments the ability to recoup costs of the Bill through fines against the gate owner for failing to have their gate inspected and repaired in a timely manner. We have worked to try and apply this Bill to those gates that are likely to impact the public at large.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
I'm committed to continue working on this Bill with the opposition to address their concerns while still ensuring that the public and our children are protected from these tragic accidents. With me to testify today is Eric Quanbeck, the father of Alex Quanbeck and co-founder of the Hummingbird alliance, and Eric Bledsoe with the American Fence Association.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Marty thank you. Mister Quanbeck, the floor is yours.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
Thank you very much. So thank you Chairman Umberg and Committee Members, for allowing me to address you today and Assemblyman Connally for his continued advocacy while my wife and I are here supporting this proposed legislation in honor of our seven year old son, Alex. The work we are doing at the Hummingbird alliance is intended to save lives.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
Since starting our organization, we have uncovered nearly 20 fatalities across the country from falling gates, including the recent death over the past few weeks of an employee at a lumberyard in Anaheim, California, who was crushed by an iron gate that was so heavy it needed to be lifted off the employee with a forklift.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
There is a simple and sensible solution to address the dangers that these large gates pose to our communities, a standards organization known as ASTM, has a set of technical specifications that are designed to prevent gates from causing fatalities when they fail. These voluntary standards are considered best practices by industry professionals.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
Our goal with this Bill is to simply take these ASTM standards and codify them into law. No gate is ever designed to fail. However, given the mechanical mechanism that enables a gate to open and close, a rolling set of wheels or a swinging hinge, there is always a possibility that a gate malfunctions.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
When this does occur, it is paramount that gates have a simple $50 safety device known as a false stop post, which prevents a gate from falling to the ground. This safety device should become as ubiquitous as a car seatbelt, a pool fence, or even a fire extinguisher.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
We appreciate the Committee's work to find compromise on this issue, and we are also committed to working with the opposition, given their concerns over the burden of compliance. While this Bill will apply to existing gates on school grounds and public parks, it is also important that these ASTM standards become commonplace with new gate installations.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
Simply put, the cost of these safeguard devices is minimal when compared to the magnitude of the loss of a love family Member, as my wife and I have experienced firsthand and many other families across this country have also experienced. Thank you for your time and the work we are doing in honor of our son, Alex.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. And thank you for turning this incredible pain into good. So appreciate that.
- Eric Bledsoe
Person
Thank you. Go ahead, sir. Good afternoon. My name is Eric Bledsoe, and I'm a professional security contractor, and I'm representing the American Fence Association. And the Association supports this legislation? It supports it because it's needed. I personally investigated three accidents in California in the last four years. One of them was Alex Kwanebeck.
- Eric Bledsoe
Person
And very simply, off stop post or other safety devices would have prevented his death. The other cases were life changing for the other victims of this. So financially, there's very little burden. If the gate can move, it can fall. It's been proven. We see it. There's no regulation. We need something. Please, seriously pass this. Thank you.
- Eric Bledsoe
Person
All right.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in support of AB 2149 please approach. Seeing no one approaching the microphone, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2149 please come forward.
- Noelle Cremers
Person
Good afternoon.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I think if you just speak a little louder...
- Noelle Cremers
Person
Noelle Cremers with Wine Institute. First, I want to offer my condolences to the Quanbeck family. I'm a mother. I would never want to imagine the tragedy and pain that they're going through. But unfortunately, we are opposed to this bill. The right way to address this is to focus on safety standards when gates are installed.
- Noelle Cremers
Person
Right now, the Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board is reviewing a petition to expand regulations for gate safety. Also, the Building Standards Commission is looking at new building code requirements. Those are the proper places to put new standards for gates in place.
- Noelle Cremers
Person
Right now, the way the bill is drafted, we appreciate the amendments that were, that are being taken today. However, they add even more confusion. Having to determine and document when a gate was installed will be challenging for our member wineries. So California has approximately 6200 wineries. Most of them throughout the state have gates.
- Noelle Cremers
Person
Of those 6200 wineries, the Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that approximately 4000 have nine or fewer employees. So to try and keep track of if this gate needs to be inspected because it was installed after 2025, or if it doesn't need to be inspected because it was installed prior, will be a significant burden on these small businesses.
- Noelle Cremers
Person
So we urge the committee to narrow the bill, apply it to places where children are present, like schools and parks, and leave the other gates up to the new building standards code and Cal/OSHA standards that are under development. With that, we urge your no vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Next witness.
- Mark Neuburger
Person
Mark Neuburger with the California State Association of Counties. I as well definitely extend my condolences for the loss and the tragedy that occurred to the Quanbeck family. Truly, that day was a very large tragedy at the Mark Day School, and I definitely had a chance to talk to the sponsor before, and I as a father also share many of the same activities that he shares with his children and, of course, the tragic passing of his son.
- Mark Neuburger
Person
However, our concerns on this bill stem from the broadness of the current version and the proposed amended version. As drafted, the bill still captures a wide number of gates, given the language of being intended for use by the public, a community, or a neighborhood. For example, when does the new or existing residential small business gate become regulated?
- Mark Neuburger
Person
Once the neighborhood book club meets in your yard, when members of the community Little League team play with your children, the evening you invite a considerable number of people to a wedding reception or other celebration event in your backyard? The broadness of the bill opens up a wide universe of gates to its applicability.
- Mark Neuburger
Person
Specifically, we believe the broadness of the bill will enable predatory behavior on the part of the industry that stands to benefit from its provisions at the expense of residents and small businesses. Under this bill, private industry contractors are the primary driving force that will enforce this statute.
- Mark Neuburger
Person
If you disagree with a private inspector's assessment of your gate, that is a covered gate by this bill, they have the statutory cover under this bill to involve the county or city to enforce their estimate. At this point, the homeowner or small business has three choices.
- Mark Neuburger
Person
Pay the contractor with whom they disagree to either install a new gate or replace an existing gate, take down the gate or refuse to install a new gate, or continue to disagree with civil penalties from a city attorney or district attorney. Go accomplish the goals the sponsor is seeking, we believe the types of gates and owners impacted should be significantly limited beyond the amendments proposed today.
- Mark Neuburger
Person
I want to take a moment to thank all the Members of the Committee and your staff for meeting with me as well as the committee staff. But I do want to say we remain opposed unless amended and respectfully request language to address our concerns outlined here and in our letter. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. If you're opposed to AB 2149, please approach the microphone. Give us your name, your affiliation, your position.
- Margrete Snyder
Person
Hi. Meg Snyder, Axiom Advisors, on behalf of the California Building Industry Association, opposed.
- Anthony Tannehill
Person
Good afternoon. Anthony Tannehill with California Special Districts Association, also with Portfolio for the California Association of Rec and Park Districts in opposition. Thank you.
- Brady Guertin
Person
Good evening, Chair and Members. Brady Guertin on behalf of the League of California Cities in a respectful opposed unless amended position. Thank you.
- Sasha Horwitz
Person
Good evening. Sasha Horwitz, Los Angeles Unified School District. We are opposed unless amended. The application of these rules for cities and counties is not the same as for school districts, and that needs to be clarified in the bill for it to work.
- Sabrina Lockhart
Person
Good evening. Sabrina Demayo Lockhart, California Attractions and Parks Association, opposed unless amended. Thank you.
- Tracy Rhine
Person
Tracy Rhine, Rural County Representatives of California, with an opposed unless amended as well.
- Christina Di Caro
Person
Christina DiCaro representing the California Ski Industry Association and Granite Construction. We remain opposed. Thank you.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Clifton Wilson on behalf of the Placer County Board of Supervisors in respectful opposition. Thank you.
- Ian Padilla
Person
Ian Padilla with the Coalition for Adequate School Housing in respectful opposition.
- Louis Brown Jr.
Person
Mr. Chair and Members of the Committee, Louis Brown on behalf of the Community Associations Institute in opposition.
- Madison Dwelley
Person
Good evening. Madison Dwelley on behalf of the Family Winemakers of California in opposition.
- Nicole Wordelman
Person
Nicole Wordelman on behalf of San Bernardino County in opposition.
- Dean Talley
Person
Dean Talley with the California Manufacturers and Technology Association, opposed.
- Annalee Akin
Person
Annalee Augustine on behalf of Mesa Water District and the Family Business Association of California. Also, the California Grain and Feed Association, California Seed Association, and a variety of other agricultural associations. Respectfully opposed. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Bring it back to committee. Questions by Committee Members. Senator Durazo?
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Yes, I have a few questions. I actually, I'm sorry if I missed your presentation and whatever conversations have gone back and forth. So this might be a repeat. But with regards to this, the conditions of maintenance of gates, I'm sure it's different depending on where the gate is, but let's just take schools, because that's, like, on everybody's mind, is the schools. What is the responsibility of the schools?
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
School district, management, administration, principals, I don't know who. But what is their responsibility right now with regards to gates? Because it seems to me, government institutions like that, it should be an easy thing that they do, but I don't know if they're required to do it, if they do it in practice. It just seems so strange that they wouldn't...
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Yeah, it's a great question. So what this would do is effectively say, just bring your gate up to a certain standard. And really what we're talking about, and you may have missed this, is installing a $50 part. If that was installed, the gate would not have fallen on a child and killed him here.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
What currently exists right now is liability of a public entity. If you're negligent around a gate or at fault, you are going to be sued now successfully. This does not change liability. So that exists now. We have taken amendments where, through 2025, this bill will only apply to schools and public parks.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Thereafter, it will also apply to new gates. So I'm not sure where the opposition was coming from because we have agreed to that. This will only apply to new gates. Furthermore, there seems to be some confusion around when something is open to the public.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
We're not talking about a winery that has employees and a couple of owners and that's it. If you're open to the public and you have folks coming in, make a gate safe, install the $50 part. So really, that's what we're talking about here. I'm frankly surprised at the last minute level of opposition we've gotten.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
I do want to mention one thing specifically because I think it was a legitimate point, and we will continue to work on this issue. And that is there is a different protocol, if you will, on inspections with school districts. They don't report to the local building inspector. It would be, effectively, to a state entity. So we're willing to work with that opposition to further clarify how that should work in the bill.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
And I think you started referring to it. A considerable, intended to be used by the public, an entire community, or neighborhood or any considerable number of persons. That considerable number person seems very vague.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Well, and again, that language was in response to their original opposition. So if there's still vagueness or a better way of saying that, I think we all know what we're talking about. If there's a better way to say it, we're all ears on that as well.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
Well, I would ask you in terms of a considerable number of persons, is that like on a one time deal, or is that like a continuously, there's a considerable number of persons, just so that I could know what it is to suggest.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Yeah, I was surprised to hear the example of, like, if you're having a private party in your backyard. That's not what this bill is trying to address. It really is facilities or sites that are open to the public in a considerable way.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
So it's only public. Okay. Okay. Well, I still have more questions. I hope that a lot of these get addressed, you know, between now and the next time we have to vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All righty. Thank you. Senator Caballero.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Mr. Chair, we were presented with some pictures. Is this, can you... Is this...
- Noelle Cremers
Person
Senator, so that's an example of a gate that might be on a vineyard, on a dirt road, that is not keeping vehicles out of a vineyard as an example. It's quite different than, I think, some of the other examples given around gates that present a risk. And the... So we just want folks to be aware that, like, a single pipe gate would be more than 50 pounds and would be subject to this. And we don't believe that it creates a significant risk to the public or a considerable number of persons.
- Mark Neuburger
Person
And I also. Oops, sorry.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
So this is a gate that probably has a sign that says do not trespass, not open to the public, I'm assuming.
- Noelle Cremers
Person
Likely, yes.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
So that is not what is intended.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
Hold on, let me clarify this, because this comes up a lot. So that's called a swinging gate, which it's on a hinge. It's not accurate to say these do not pose danger. So there's a well documented case of a woman outside...
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I'm just trying to figure out if it's included in the bill or not.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
It is, it's a swinging gate.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
But if it's not open to the public...
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
Correct. But that type of gate design does pose a danger. And the reason I mention this is there was a woman in Arches National Park in Utah who was decapitated by that very same gate design when a gust of wind blew it through her car windshield. It was national news a couple of years ago.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
And so while that gate, we can debate where it should be applied. There's two basic mechanisms for how a gate is designed. It either rolls on wheels and it can fall off the track. The proverbial idiom, the wheels come off the track. If it swings, it's on a hinge, and if it's not properly secured.
- Eric Quanbeck
Person
There have been examples where a gust of wind blowing 50 pounds of metal can cause either fatality or serious injury. So both gate designs are intended to be captured. The debate is, where do you capture it, to the comment you were making open to the public, et cetera.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Well, I'm just trying to figure out what are we talking about and where are we talking about it? And the... I appreciate the bill, and I understand what you're trying to do with it. I want to support it, but I also don't want it to be so broad that, that the argument becomes we got to protect everybody from any possibility. And because that's. It's impossible, right? It's impossible. We do the best we can.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
A gate that works on a motor, I get it. It's out of your control once it starts operating. But I just think that... I'm going to support the bill today, but I think you need to work on some of the narrowing it, or let me put it this way, make it very clear what kind of gates you're talking about.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
And if people are going to trespass, it's very difficult to try to, in every eventuality, to protect them. I get the negligence type of stuff, but grossly negligent. Right. And that gets into all the law. I don't want to get in there. I think if you narrow this, this would be a really good bill. I'm going to support it today.
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Yeah, no, and I appreciate that. We are totally open to working on that. Hopefully, there's meaningful engagement. I'll just say that language was added later through committee processes. So we're open to any additional ideas. I think we know what we're talking about here, so it's just saying it in the proper way.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I appreciate that, and I thank you for that. The picture and the comment.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Caballero. Other questions? Comments? Seeing none. All right. Is there a motion? Senator Caballero moves the bill. Assembly Member Connolly, would you like to close?
- Damon Connolly
Legislator
Yeah. Really appreciate the ongoing conversation. We have a little bit more work to do on this bill, but with this measure, we can make sure that no other family will have to face this kind of tragedy. And with that, thank you again, and I respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Yes. They've accepted amendments. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 51, AB 2149. The motion is do pass as amended to Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call] Eight to zero.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
8-0.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, Bill will be on call. Thank you. All right, I see. Assemblymember Gabriel here. Assemblymember Gabriel, item 50, AB 2331.
- Jesse Gabriel
Legislator
Thank you very much, Mister chair. I'm pleased today to present AB 2031. This is a simple cleanup Bill that will provide clarification in connection with the purchase and sale of voluntary carbon offset credits. I know that the hour is late, so I'll let you know. This Bill has no known opposition. It was on consent in prior committees.
- Jesse Gabriel
Legislator
Happy to answer any questions. Respectfully request your aye vote best presentation of the day. All right, support. If you're in support of AB 2331 please approach.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
Clifton Wilson, on behalf of the Pacific Merchant Shipping Association in support if amended. Sorry.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Support if amended. All right, great. Thanks. Anyone else in support? Seeing no one else approach the microphone. Opposition. If you're opposed to AB 2331 please approach. Seeing no one approaching, is there a question or comments by Committee Members?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Moves the Bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Senator Stern moves the Bill, saying no questions or comments. Would you like to close? Respectful request, your I vote. Thank you very much, Madam Secretary. Please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 50, AB 2331. The motion is do pass to Senate appropriations. Umberg? Aye. Umberg, aye. Wilk, aye. Wilk, aye. Allen Ashby. Ashby. Aye. Caballero. Caballero. I durasso. Durazo. I Laird. Laird. I Niello. I Niello. I Ross Stern. Stern. I Wahab. Eight to zero.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Eight to zero. Please let your colleagues know this is how you do it. Phone call. Thank you. Thank you. Good luck. Summary Member Brian, you get moved up? You just got bumped way up. All right, Senator Bryan, AB 3265. Maybe you didn't get bumped up as far as I thought. Any event. So, the floor is yours.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
Thank you, Mister chair and colleagues. AB 3265 is a Bill that will be a catalyst for sustained job growth by streamlining the process we use for renovating soundstages and updating production facilities to incorporate the latest technologies. This Bill was on consent in the Assembly, both in the natural resources Committee, the Judiciary Committee, and on the Assembly floor.
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
It has received no, no, votes. Bipartisan support. I respect. We asked for your aye vote. Joining me today is former majority leader Alberto Tarrico, representing Fox Studios.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. We tour to recall. Thank you, Mister Chairman. We too are in support of the Bill. Respectfully, that's when aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Okay. All right. Others in support. If you're in support of AB 3265, please approach the microphone. Counsel in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support, please approach. If you're opposed to AB 3265, please approach the microphone. Seeing no one approaching the microphone, let's bring it back to Committee for questions. Questions by Committee Members.
- John Laird
Legislator
Senator Laird, I was just going to say, despite the witness, I would move the Bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Well, thank you. I feel you so. Yes, I got it. All right. Senator Laird has moved the Bill. Would you like to close?
- Isaac Bryan
Legislator
Respectfully ask for your. I vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right. You and Assembly Member Gabriel in competition. We'd like to see that. All right. Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 56, AB 3265. The motion is do pass to Senate appropriations. [Roll Call] Nine to zero.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
90. Put that. Thank you, Mister chair. Thank you very much, Assemblymember Arambula. You have been hanging out here all day, so thank you. Thank you, Mister chair. And Senators, file item number 64 AB 1840.
- Joaquin Arambula
Legislator
The social and economic benefits of ownership should be accessible to everyone, regardless of their immigration status. Assembly Bill 1840 ensures that eligibility in the California dream for all program includes undocumented persons. Undocumented individuals have historically been excluded from housing initiatives because of federal restrictions at the state level.
- Joaquin Arambula
Legislator
Legal status can complicate access to home loans and to home ownership assistance programs, posing a significant hardship in an already challenging sector of California's economy. Ensuring universal access by all qualified borrowers to the California Dream for all program will contribute to the overall success and vitality of California.
- Joaquin Arambula
Legislator
Testifying in support of Assembly Bill 1840 is Vida Estela Orellano De Nova, a chair Law Member from San Bernardino, and Cynthia Gomez, Deputy Director and of state policy and advocacy at CHIRLA.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. The floor is yours.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Good evening, chair Members. Veda will be doing her testimony in Spanish. I'll be quickly translating. I'll begin with my. Good evening, chair and Senators. My name is Cynthia Gomez, Deputy Director of state policy and advocacy with the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
CHIRLA is proud to sponsor AB 1840 and are thankful for the leadership of Assemblymember Arambula on this Bill. In 2021, California established a dream for all program which is tailored to help low and moderate-income, first-time home buyers purchase a home, specifically providing a shared appreciation loan to help cover the cost of a down payment.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
This was a significant step towards helping first time home buyers, as many find that covering the cost of a down payment to be a significant hurdle in their aspirations to purchase a home. Home ownership is a cornerstone of generational wealth, and historic policies rooted in racial bias have resulted in lower home ownership rates among communities of color.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
As we work to increase home ownership in California, we must ensure that the laws that we enact are inclusive and accessible to undocumented individuals who call California home, which is precisely what AB 1840 seeks to achieve.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
AB 1840 would ensure that an individual is not turned away from the dream for all program solely based on their immigration status. Undocumented individuals are significant contributors to our state's economy, contributing roughly $51 billion in state and local taxes. These contributions help fund the various state and local programs.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
However, because of their documentation status, undocumented individuals are unable to benefit from the very programs that they help Fund. AB 1840 aligns with our goals as a state where all Californians, regardless of their immigration status, can access critical programs. We thank you for your consideration on this Bill and ask for your support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Next witness, please.
- Vida Orellano
Person
Buenos tardes. Mi nombre es Vida Orellana soy originaria de El Salvador conformo una familia de tres. Mi familia y yo tuvimos que inmigrar de nuestro paĆs por razones de seguridad. Como de miles y miles de familias venimos ha Estados Unido buscando una mejor calidad de vida.
- Vida Orellano
Person
Podemos desarrollar como familia y cumplir nuestros sueƱos. Actualmente vivimos en la ciudad de San Bernardino, California. Rentamos un apartamento pequeƱo de dos habitaciones.
- Vida Orellano
Person
Somo parte la fuerza laborar de este paĆs y como toda las familias anhelamos hacer realidad nuestros sueƱos de tener una vivienda digna lo que nos darĆa la estabilidad de sentirnos en un techo seguro y que en un futuro este se convierta en nuestro patrimonio familiar. En Noviembre 2023 nos entrevistamos con una financiera para obtener un crĆ©dito apotecario por primera vez. Desafortunadamente no podemos calificar por que al solo contar con un numero de ITIN la financiera nos explico que nesecitariamos cumplir mas requisitos com aumentar el down payment, hasta un 20% de el valor de la propiedad, contar con un co-signer el que respaldara nuestro crĆ©dito cual no contamos
- Vida Orellano
Person
El dĆa de hoy vengo de pedirles que voten en favor a la propuesta AB 1840 este proyecto de ley estatal beneficiaria a muchas familias como la mĆa. Para poder adquirir una propiedad y al mismo tiempo contribuir a un mas a la economĆa de California. Les pido que no lo vean como un gasto vean lo como una inversion que al futuro beneficiaria a nuestro estado. Muchas gracias por su tiempo
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alright, thank you very much.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Good afternoon. My name is Vida Orellana. I'm originally from El Salvador. I have a family of three. My family and I had to migrate from our country for security reasons.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
And like thousands and thousands of families, we came to the United States looking for a better way of life, to be able to grow as a family and to fulfill our dreams. We currently live in the City of San Bernardino where we rent a small two bedroom apartment.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Right now, saving becomes a heroic act since we have to adjust our savings to cover rental expenses that increase every year. And the way of life in general has become much more expensive.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
We are part of the workforce of this country and like all families, we long to make our dream of having a home come true, which would give us a stability and would become our family inheritance in the future. In November 2023, we met with a financial company to obtain a mortgage loan for the first time.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Unfortunately, we could not qualify because since we only have ITIN numbers, the financial company explained that we'd have to meet more requirements, such as increasing the down payment up to 20% of the value of the property and have a cosigner which we did not have.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Today I come to ask you to vote in favor of AB 1840, which would help many families like mine be able to acquire a home and at the same time contribute even more to the California economy. I ask you don't view this as an expense for the state, but rather as an investment that would benefit our state.
- Cynthia Gomez
Person
Thank you very much for your time.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you very much. All right, others in support of AB 1840, please approach the microphone.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Hello, good afternoon. My name is Mireya Suarez, community organizer with CHIRLA and I'm support. Thank you Irma Janet Escobar, with CHIRLA in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Thank you Becca Kramer Mowder on behalf of ACLU California Action in support.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Thank you Neha Saggio. On behalf of the western center on law and poverty and support.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Thank you Katherine Charles. On behalf of house in California, in support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, others in support, please approach. Microphone. Seeing no one else approaches microphone let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 1840, please come forward. Seeing no one coming forward. Let's bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members seeing one Senator Laird, then Senator Caballero.
- John Laird
Legislator
Oh, actually, she stole my thunder, because I was going to say if I wasn't going to support this Bill already, the fact that he sat there for half his natural life during this hearing and never got called to come up here would have motivated me to support it as well, so. All right, thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Persistence pays off.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
All right, Senator Caballero, I just wanted to show my appreciation to the author for this Bill. This is really an important and really incredibly, I don't understand why we didn't think about this.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
We probably should go through and look at all the different categories where we can say specifically that we want to include undocumented workers and do it because it's the right thing to do.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. What she said. Okay. Others who wish to. All right, is there a motion? Senator Durazo moves the Bill. All right, thank you. Would you like to close?
- Joaquin Arambula
Legislator
Thank you, Mister chair, for the opportunity to present, like so many immigrants. I, too, had the Ganas today to make sure that we got this Bill across. And for so many immigrants, it's the opportunity towards generational wealth that home ownership avails yourself to.
- Joaquin Arambula
Legislator
That is the promise that this Bill has, and I'm excited that we're able to be able to present this Bill today and respectfully ask for an aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you very much. All right, Madam Secretary, it's been moved by Senator Durazzo. Please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 64 AB 1840. The motion is do pass to Senate appropriations. [Roll Call] Seven to two.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Seven to two. That Bill will be on call. Thank you.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Assembly Member Bauer Kahan.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I am so impressed that it is 530 and you're on ease.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I am quite impressed. You can thank Senator Wilk. I think so, Vice Chair.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Well, and I just find it, you have to understand that it was Senator Umberg that started at the z along with assemblymember Wicks. So otherwise you would have started with the a's, and you would have been up a lot sooner. I know Senator Caballero would have approved of the beginning of the Alphabet.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I don't know if you're aware, Senator Caballero, but Assemblymember Wicks. Is chair of appropriations in the Assembly. Are you aware of that? All right. Okay, so. All right, so. AB 1008. File number 61.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Do you mind if we start it with 1836? Because my witness.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
That's fine. Great. File number 62. AB 1836.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Sorry to jump around on all of you, but. Perfect. Thank you. I want to thank the Committee staff. And before I start, actually, I want to express my immense gratitude for this Committee, both the chair, but also particularly Christian, who I've had the privilege of working with on artificial intelligence bills, not just my own.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And it's been incredible. You have incredible staff here, and it's a privilege to work with you. So I want to start with that. And I'll be accepting the amendments on this Bill. So with that, I'm proud to present. AB 1836. California, as we all know, is a hub for artists and artistic expression.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Performers and celebrities build their careers based on their signature performances. Our state has an exceptionally strong protection for living artists against the exploitation of their likeness, but that protection is not extended to deceased performers.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Under current law, images and videos of deceased performers are allowed to be used in a broad range of creative works, including an explicit exemption for audio visual works. Before the advent of AI as we know it today, this may have not been incredibly important, but now we know that deceased performers can be exploited in new ways.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
AI replicas of performers allow a full reanimation, creating work in the image and likeness of the deceased performer that their estate has no say in and may receive no compensation for.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And I'll say it's really important not just the compensation, but we heard from one notable deceased actor's family where that actor had put into his will that he didn't want his likeness to be used after his death, and he should have a right to control that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
This Bill allows deceased performers the right to not be reanimated without the consent of their will or estate. By restricting this to convincing digital replicas, the Bill protects against future abuses without altering the exemptions for hiring actors or using previously works that are currently legal.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
With me in support is Doug Morell, attorney with SAG AfTRA and actress Jody Long.
- Jody Long
Person
Good evening. My name is Jody Long, and I'm an actor and SAG AFTRA's Los Angeles local President, representing my colleagues who rely on our faces and voices to support our livelihoods and our families.
- Jody Long
Person
None of us want to become digitized replicas of ourselves after we die, subject to the will of those who not only can manipulate our images and voices, but potentially use them to sell products we don't believe in or serve agendas we'd be opposed to long after we are dead.
- Jody Long
Person
To explain why AB 1836 is so important, I'll share my story in the beginning of 2020. I was shooting a film in Australia. The first day, I went through my customary hair makeup tests and costume fittings.
- Jody Long
Person
Then I was told I needed to get scanned, which entailed going into a cage filled with hundreds of cameras that would take a picture of every inch of my body. I was never informed of this, and my agents were halfway around the world asleep at that time. There was no language written into our contracts regarding scanning.
- Jody Long
Person
Many times I thought to myself, what happens if they use my digital scan for a prequel or a sequel and I'm dead. Getting those guidelines around actors digital replicas became a major topic during our 2023 contract negotiations and key factor in our strike against the studios and streamers.
- Jody Long
Person
Well, I'm happy to say that SAG AFTRA was finally able to get the first contractual AI protections in this area for our Members. Yet currently, there are no legislative guardrails for everyone else, including high school students, athletes, and lawmakers like yourself.
- Jody Long
Person
Senators, imagine you, your child or loved one was used for improper purposes or manipulated to promote a harmful product or political agenda they didn't believe in. That's a reality made possible with unchecked use of this technology. Protections need to exist for the deceased and their families.
- Jody Long
Person
After all, if we're indeed a freed country, then we should be free to live and die without the fear of becoming someone else's unpaid digital puppet. For these reasons, I strongly urge this Committee to vote yes on AB 1836.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Doug Morrel
Person
Thank you. Honorable chair and Members of the Committee, my name is Doug Morell and I'm a partner in the Los Angeles law firm of Greenberg Glesker. I appear in support of AB 1836.
- Doug Morrel
Person
My primary interest lies in ensuring that consent remains the fundamental touchstone when it comes to deciding whether, and if so, how to permit generative artificial intelligence technology to be used to digitally reanimate deceased performers. I applaud the Committee's excellent and comprehensive analysis of AB 1836.
- Doug Morrel
Person
And as I understand it, the only lingering concerns about this legislation, as expressed by the motion Picture Association and the studios it represents, have been fully addressed by adopting the language of the reworked exemption found at the top of page 10 of the analysis.
- Doug Morrel
Person
Thus, the basis for the only remaining opposition of record boils down to an aversion to the very existence of the post mortem right of publicity. But that issue, I respectfully submit, was laid to rest nearly 40 years ago when this Legislature adopted a state statutory post mortem right of publicity.
- Doug Morrel
Person
And now California is one of 27 states to recognize such a right, whether by statute and or at common law. It's worth noting that nothing in AB 1836 would require motion picture producers or studios to do anything other than what they have been doing.
- Doug Morrel
Person
There are at least five instances in the last quarter century where permission to use the voice and or likeness of deceased performers has been sought and obtained from the families or other representatives of their respective estates.
- Doug Morrel
Person
And this Bill simply ensures that such consent will continue to be required when AI versions of recognizable deceased performers are being used. Finally, the development of the law too often lags behind the advancement of technology.
- Doug Morrel
Person
Fortunately, AB 1836 anticipates and ensures the right of surviving families and other representatives to consent or refuse to consent to AI manipulations of their loved ones. I urge and I vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Mister Morrell. Thank you. All right, those in support of AB 1836, please approach the microphone.
- Felipe Fuentes
Person
Good afternoon, Mister chair. Members of the Committee, Felipe Fuentes here on behalf of the motion Picture Association, and I first of all want to thank the author and her sponsors for all of the work that's gone into this measure. And Mister Morel hit it right on the head.
- Felipe Fuentes
Person
With all of that work, we are able to get into a neutral position. So thank you very much and to your staff, of course.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, other than support seeing no one else approaching the microphone, let's turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 1836, please approach.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
That's not who I was expecting.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Go ahead, the floor is yours.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
Good evening Mister chair and Members. My name is Lizzie Cootsona. I'm with Shaw, Yoder, Antris, Melzer, and Lange, and I'm here on behalf of my client, tech net, and respectful opposition to AB 1836. We greatly appreciate the changes suggested by the Committee and agreed by the author.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
We shared many of the concerns that have previously been raised by the Motion Picture Association and thank the author for addressing those with amendments. However, we want to offer a slightly different perspective on the remaining language and have a suggested change to address our concern.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
As noted, AB 1836 would make any person who produces, distributes, or makes available the digital replica of a deceased personality's likeness liable for damages.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
Because this liability extends to any person that produces, distributes, or makes available such a digital replica, it is unclear if the deployers of AI systems more broadly could be held liable if a user chooses to use such a system to create and disseminate content without authorization from the depicted individual.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
Not all digital services have knowledge of every nuance for specific pieces of content hosted on their platforms. However, under current language, a website, online platform, or even a device manufacturer could still be held liable.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
We recommend that liability be targeted to a person or entity who intentionally or knowingly committed deceptive acts using a digital replica, rather than tying liability to a product that allowed the media to be generated or served as a means for it to be shared.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
We suggest clarifying this issue by including a knowledge standard such that liability applies to a person who knowingly distributes a deceased personality's likeness with the knowledge that they did not consent to the use. We suggest defining knowledge as actual or constructive knowledge.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
We look forward to continuing our conversations with the author's office to resolve this issue, and for these reasons, we're respectfully opposed. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Others in opposition.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Mister Chairman remembers opposition is such a strong word, isn't it? Just when we thought we had peace in our time. Go ahead. Yes, I represent the Recording Industry Association of America, and we have been conceptually supportive of this Bill throughout the process. This recent amendment actually gives us heartburn and concern.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I want to explain why, specifically the amendments proposed to remove the phrase to the extent the use is protected by the First Amendment to the US Constitution from the list of exemptions proposed. If the exemptions stand with no qualifications, then the exemptions exempt use of AI that move far beyond expression that is protected by the First Amendment.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We believe this would lead to harmful results and functionally overturn settled First Amendment precedent for example, a categorical exemption to rights of publicity for any news, public affairs or sports broadcast would overturn the precedent referenced in your analysis where the court held that the First Amendment did not protect a news outlet from a rite of publicity suit for broadcasting a performer's act in its entirety and therefore harming the performer's work or the market for their work.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Moreover, a categorical statutory exemption for satire or parody could permit the use of an AI generated Elvis or Frank Sinatra in a deeply offensive or sexually explicit parody of a past performance that crosses the line into material the Constitution does not protect. We're concerned about that. We've given the Committee, your staff, a proposed amendment to fix that.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
We've given it the author as well. We'll certainly try to work on that over the summer if that's what we're destined to do. The other thing I would raise is we provided the author several times a provision that would allow the record companies to stand in for the artist's heirs when we have to pursue an action.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Nobody's disagreed with that. We just haven't put it into the Bill yet. That's an important protection because typically the heirs don't want to be in court suing people. They let the company do that for them. And that's something we would like to see in the Bill as well. So for those reasons, we're sort of concerned.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Now, I wouldn't oppose again as a strong word, but we're, we'd like to resolve some of these things as we move forward. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Others than kind of opposition or even opposition. So presenting the Electron Frontier foundation, in respectful opposition. Thank you.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Good evening. Chair and Members, Naomi Padron, on behalf of the Computer and Communications Industry Association, respectfully in opposition. And we would align our comments made with Technet.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Good evening. Ronak Dalami with Cal Chamber. We also align our comments with Technet. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, let's bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members, questions by seeing. No questions, no comments. Is there a motion? Mister Stern's making a motion.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Senator, make a motion with a brief comment with gratitude to Miss Wong from one of your Members, who happens to be my dad. And he said, don't go alter his schnoz in the future. Home alone 14 and then we'll be good. So I said, we'll allow that to happen and then we're all set.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So I do appreciate the concerns though. Outstanding.
- Jody Long
Person
Thank you. I just want to say my last name is Long, not Wong.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Okay, thank you, Miss Long. Well, I'll relay that back and take beating when I get home. All right.
- Jody Long
Person
But I'll take his recommendation under consideration to heart.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you. Senator Stern, you made a motion? All right. Would you like to close?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. You make one group happy, and another one pops up. But we are working incredibly hard to try to find a happy place in this Bill that will satisfy everyone and protect the important rights that our actors and artists in California deserve. And with that, I respect the SBI vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Yes, those 16 words were challenging, even for me, to understand exactly how a jury or a finder of fact would use those words. So, with that, there's been a motion. Madam Chief counsel, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 62 AB. 1836. The motion is do passed as amended, to the Senate Committee on appropriations. [Roll Call]. Nine to zero Members missing 90.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, we'll put that on call. Next Bill 61, file. I'm 61 AB. 1008. Perfect. Yes.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you so much for your indulgence, Mister chair. Thank you, chair. And Members, I want to start by thanking Committee staff for their diligent work on the Bill. And I'll be accepting Committee amendments today, so I will not be commenting on the part of the Bill that is now no longer in the Bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So we'll focus on what it does after the amendments. So, after the amendments, the Bill clarifies that personal information under the California Consumer Privacy act provides that personal information can exist in a variety of formats.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
This includes physical formats, like paper documents or printed images, digital formats like Excel spreadsheets and mp4 files, and abstract digital formats, including AI systems that are capable of outputting personal information.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And that last piece, thank you to the Committee, should clarify hopefully some of the concerns of the opposition with the way we were trying to talk about AI. And the CCPA limits a business ability to sell personal information. It is agnostic to the form that information takes when it is transferred between the buyer and the seller.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
In recent years, a new method for transmitting personal information has been developed. We know that our data is now becoming valuable to train these AI systems. It is the way our data is most valuable today, perhaps.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And so what this Bill does is it merely extends those protections that all of us have been enjoying for many years to the sale of our data for the training of AI. If the AI model can output that data.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And I think it's actually an important point to understand about these AI models and the way they work, is if you can put my address into an AI model and train it, it can come out of the AI model in many cases.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And so what we want to do is ensure that that data you believe is protected on the Internet is so in these models as well. So that's the Bill. It is now very simple. So I respect the ask your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
First witness.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
We don't have a witness.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Don't have a witness. All right, those in support of AB 1008, please approach the microphone. Seeing no one approaching the microphone, my guess is we're going to see some others here. Those in opposition to AB 1008, please approach.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Thank you. Members. Ronak Daylami with Cal Chamber. Respectfully, we are in an opposed position to 1008, primarily due to the way that the Bill would have narrowed the definition of publicly available information. I'm not. It's been a long day. I used to be on that side as a Committee consultant, and I'm not gonna continue with this.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
I'm just gonna say that we are looking at the Bill, particularly for the provisions that remain and the amendment to that, and we will hopefully be able to update the author and the Committee where we are. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, others in opposition. zero, here we go.
- Margaret Gladstein
Person
Margaret Gladstone Kaplavici. On behalf of the American Property Casualty Insurance Association, we are in opposition. Now, we're going to be reviewing the amendments and may adjust our position. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, thank you.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Good evening, chair and Members, Naomi Padron. On behalf of the Computer and Communications Industry Association, respectfully opposed.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
Lizzie Cutsona here. On behalf of Technet and respectful opposition. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no one else approaches the microphone, let's bring it back to Committee for questions. Senator off moves to the Bill. All right, we're now approaching hour 10.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So, I will respectfully ask for your aye vote, Members.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay, thank you very much. All right, Madam Secretary or Madam Chief counsel, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 61. The motion is do pass, as amended, to the Senate Appropriations Committee. [Roll Call] Seven to two with Members missing. All right, Mister chair. Yes, we'll put that on call. Yes. Just for the record, we're five minutes from hour 11.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
That math thing is hard. So. Okay. Thank you, Senator. They become lawyers. We're feeling much better about the whole hearing. So. You mentioned that. So, yes, you're.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
It's the wrong Committee to be doing math in.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Wait a minute.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Are we ready for. I think that means we're ready for file item 63. Let's move it along. Yes. Perfect. Okay.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. AB 2930 file. I'm 63.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Perfect. Hi. So I want to again thank Committee staff for the diligent work on this Bill and to be accepting Committee amendments. The Bill is taking a lot of amendments in this Committee to try to find a balance between the support and opposition, and we are getting a lot closer, I believe.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But you'll hear that we're not 100% there yet, I don't think. With that, I'm proud to present AB 2930 which is modeled after President Biden's AI Bill of Rights. AB 2930 protects individuals from algorithmic discrimination by requiring developers and users to assess automated decision tools, or adts, for discriminatory bias and mitigate accordingly.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Artificial intelligence and adts have yielded astonishing insights. I am not somebody who believes we should not be using artificial intelligence for these purposes. However, I do think it is important to build trust in these models and to deploy them in a responsible manner.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Automated decision tools use statistical analysis to assess eligibility for benefits or penalties, decisions that have a drastic impact on individuals lives. Adts have been widely used for employment screening and healthcare decisions, and the use case of them continues to expand.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
A year ago, it was showed that over half of the decisions in your life are being made by these AI tools. Already, there is no accountability for unbiased data sets or a programmer's unconscious bias that can be embedded into adts and the results can be detrimental and discriminatory as the law stands today.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
As all of you know, you have to wait until so many people are the subject of discrimination before you can take an action. And over and over again, we've seen studies that show that these tools can result in bias in science.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
In 2019, a clinical algorithm used across hospitals for determining patient care was racially biased against black patients. In that case, the algorithm used healthcare spending as a proxy for health needs and falsely concluded that black patients were healthier than equally sick white patients, depriving black patients from their much-needed healthcare. This is just one example.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
When you consider ADTs are being used to determine eligibility for employment, medical treatment, parole, probation, et cetera, it becomes apparent that these are consequential decisions, and marginalization and discrimination will only become more entrenched unless we test these tools. And so what this Bill does fundamentally is it follows the best practices in the industry.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Most good actors in the industry are doing impact assessments before they deploy these tools. They are making sure they are non-discriminatory, because if you hand a housing tool over to an apartment owner and they run a tool and it is discriminatory, that is unlawful.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And so we are just putting the best practice into place by saying you have to run these impact assessments and ensure there is no bias before you deploy them.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And that is a future that I, as a woman who have faced discrimination and hiring, think is an exciting future, one where we can create systems that are potentially less biased than the ones we have today.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
With me in support of the Bill is Catherine Bracey, CEO and co-founder of Tech Equity Collaborative, and Mariko Yoshihara is here on behalf of tech equity as a technical expert. Only one person will speak unless you ask questions.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty, thank you very much.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Thank you assemblymember Bauer Kahan and Members of the Committee for inviting me to speak today. Tech Equity is a research and policy advocacy organization focused on ensuring that tech is responsible for building prosperity for all and is held accountable for the harms it creates in our communities.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Enacting the protections outlined in AB 2930 are critical, as we have already seen, the harmful and discriminatory effects that automated decision making systems can have in our communities.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
As assemblywoman pointed out, everything from tools that were meant to predict how likely a defendant is to recidivate that was falsely found to falsely flag black defendants as future criminals at twice the rate of white defendants, to systems that predictively score rental housing applicants, a LA minority report on whether they are likely to pay rent on time or damage an apartment unit.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
TechEquitiy's research has found that these predictive scoring tools, which make guesses about people's future behavior based on comparisons to others who are like them, are being used by almost 20% of landlords in California, and that number is growing.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Our research has also found that these tools are disproportionately relied upon by landlords who rent to more vulnerable people. These tools often operate as black boxes that offer no way for impacted people to know, correct or dispute the results or understand the logic behind a recommendation or a prediction.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
AB 2930 will provide consumers and workers with more information and greater transparency into the use of these tools for critical areas of their lives, while requiring developers and deployers to take more responsibility for reducing the likelihood of discrimination.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
We appreciate Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan's leadership on this important issue and her willingness to work with various stakeholders to ensure that this legislation provides meaningful protections to those impacted by ADTs. We look forward to continuing to work with Assemblymember Bauer-Kahan on the Bill, and we are grateful for the amendments made thus far.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
For this reason, we urge your. I vote today. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Next witness. Other witnesses? zero, go ahead.
- Marika Yoshihar
Person
Well, Marika Yoshihara just here as a technical witness, but also want to register support for the California Employment Lawyers Association, Equal Rights advocates, Center for Democracy and Technology, consumer reports, and equal rights advocates. I don't know if I said that already. All righty.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
They're very supportive. Yes. Right. Okay. All right. Others in support, please approach the microphone.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Good evening. Terry Oli with Economic Security action and strong support. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support. Seeing no one else approached the microphone, let's now turn to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB2930. Yeah, that one, too. 2930 please approach.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Thank you. Thank you, Members, and to the author. Ronak Daylami, once again, with Cal Chamber, unfortunately in strong opposition to AB 2930. Bias and discrimination are absolutely serious problems, and so our member companies are trying to be part of the solution.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
But we also believe that it's imperative to be part, to take a measured approach to avoid overregulation of tools that also contribute in many positive and valuable ways to our economy and society, tools that actually have the potential to reduce bias and discrimination.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
With that bigger picture in mind, we have actually, dating back to AB 331, worked on identifying the major issues, compliance issues or challenges over regulation. Examples to try and get to a place of neutrality on this bill. First, the scope of the bill is extraordinarily broad. It captures businesses of all sizes and industries, but also all kinds of ADT, low and high risk, in large part due to the broad and vague definitions in the bill.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Next, there's the infeasibility of notice and opt out provisions, followed by the need for greater confidentiality to ensure candor, the need for a single enforcer to ensure consistent application of the law, and preemption. The harder question, of course, has been how to adequately address those issues.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Consistent with our commitment to the author, we worked diligently with members and industry partners on amendments that would address our overlapping concerns, meaning not just red lines that address Cal Chamber's concerns and our members concerns, but those of the broader industry. This was a difficult task and took time, and we appreciate the author's patience.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
But we did keep our word, and we provided those amendments on May 8, and we provided them to the committee, of course, on June 5, as well. And we even flagged within those a subset of the red lines that correspond to those five key issues that are keeping us from, ideally, getting to a good place on this bill. To understand how seriously we have taken this, you just need to look at some of the other issues, like penalties in the bill that we did not prioritize, which we ordinarily would.
- Ronak Daylami
Person
Of course, we're deeply appreciative of the recent amendments incorporating our requested confidentiality provisions and most of our changes to the algorithmic discrimination definition, which is key, and I don't want to undermine that. But unfortunately, more amendments remain, and the majority of the amendments have consistently taken us further apart. On a bill that impacts businesses of all sizes and industries, it does not reflect a fair compromise from our perception, and so we look forward to...
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
You're advocating a no?
- Ronak Daylami
Person
We are advocating a no, but appreciate the work of the committee and the author. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. It's a considerate no, but a no. Got it.
- Remy Meraz
Person
Chair Umberg and Committee Members, my name is Remy Meraz, and I am the co-founder and CEO of Zella Life. Zella Life is an AI powered coaching platform that helps strengthen emotional intelligence and soft skills in the workplace. Our AI tool actually helps companies prevent and reduce workplace bias and discrimination.
- Remy Meraz
Person
Please note that I 100% agree with AB 2930's intent, but it simply misses the mark. Unfortunately, AB 2930 would significantly limit our ability to help develop the underrepresented workforce groups that we serve. By legislating from a place of fear, this bill imposes extraordinary and unjustified burdens, especially on small companies like mine.
- Remy Meraz
Person
Instead of focusing on actual discrimination, the bill imposes risk assessments, predictions, evaluations, governance programs, and reviews in a noble but misguided effort to prevent discrimination. The government doesn't impose these burdens on people who use their brains or calculators to make critical decisions, nor businesses that get decision support from consultants.
- Remy Meraz
Person
So why would the government bury companies like mine in paperwork who use technology responsibly to process large data sets to help companies and people make better decisions? Ultimately, this bill would result in hefty fines and penalty for businesses that are not engaging in discrimination, but simply failing to meet all strict requirements.
- Remy Meraz
Person
If this bill becomes a law, I will have to hire expensive legal and compliance experts to satisfy all of the admin requirements. I empathize deeply with concerns about discrimination and bias, but I urge you to focus on regulating AI misuse that results in actual harm. The means of discrimination, the technology should not be our focus. Unlawful discrimination is wrong, whether it is accomplished with a computer, a phone, or a pencil and paper. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right. I see quite a line for those in opposition. Name, affiliation, and position. In fact, I'm half tempted just to have you all yell it one time. But no, I'm not going to do that.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Becca Cramer-Mowder on behalf of ACLU California Action, oppose unless amended unless the bill gets stronger.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Opposite of them.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
We've got people on both sides who are unhappy with me.
- Chao Jun Liu
Person
Chao Jun Liu with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, oppose unless amended. We are encouraged by the amendments, and we look forward to future conversations. Thank you.
- Catherine Charles
Person
Catherine Charles on behalf of the Personal Insurance Federation of California. Still opposed, but want to thank the author for continued conversations and looking forward to possible amendments in the future. Thank you.
- Michael Robson
Person
Mike Robson here on behalf of the American Staffing Association, the California Staffing Professionals. Opposed to the bill unless it's amended to become feasible.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you.
- Indira Mc Donald
Person
Indira McDonald on behalf of the California Mortgage Bankers Association, and we are opposed unless amended.
- Dean Talley
Person
Dean Talley with the California Manufacturers and Technology Association, opposed.
- Courtney Jensen
Person
Courtney Jensen on behalf of Civil Justice Association of California in opposition, and also Verizon in an opposed unless amended position. Thank you.
- Lizzie Cootsona
Person
Lizzie Cootsona here on behalf of TechNet in respectful opposition. Thank you.
- Mark Farouk
Person
Mark Farouk, California Hospital Association, opposed unless amended.
- George Soares
Person
George Soares with the California Medical Association, opposed unless amended.
- Ronald Berdugo
Person
Ronnie Berdugo on behalf of Kaiser Permanente, opposed unless amended.
- David Gonzalez
Person
David Gonzalez on behalf of America's Physician Groups as well as the California Life Sciences, opposed unless amended. Thank you.
- Melanie Cuevas
Person
Good evening. Melanie Cuevas, California Bankers Association, also opposed unless amended. Thank you.
- Naomi Padron
Person
Good evening. Naomi Padron on behalf of the California Credit Union League, with an opposed unless amended position, and also on behalf of the Association of California Life and Health Insurance Companies, opposed.
- Margaret Gladstein
Person
Margaret Gladstein on behalf of the American Property Casualty Insurance Association in opposition.
- Stephanie Morwell
Person
Good evening. Stephanie Morwell on behalf of the Consumer Technology Association in opposition.
- Moira Topp
Person
Moira Topp on behalf of Orange County Business Council in opposition.
- John Wenger
Person
John Wenger on behalf of the Advanced Medical Technology Association, opposed unless amended.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Seeing no one else approaching the microphone, we're going to bring it back to Members. And before we bring it back to Members, let me just make a quick comment. I'm going to support the bill, but I do believe that there are some very, very, very big issues that need to be resolved.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
And I have confidence the bill, if it should pass out of committee, is going to go to our own experts, Senator Caballero, on artificial intelligence and decision making tools. But I want to make sure that I am transparent that, if these issues aren't resolved, I won't support it on the floor.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I think that there are some things here that make it unworkable. And so I am concerned about it being workable by the time it gets to the floor. I know we've got at least a month to make that happen. I have confidence in the author. I have confidence in the process. But I want to let you know that. All right. Now, turning it over to Members. Senator Roth.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You know, I support, certainly, the impact assessment. We actually, we've done that for years. You know, in standardized tests, you don't give a test unless the test has been validated to make sure there's not disparate impact with respect to the test questions. And there are probably numerous other examples that date back long before the letters A and I were linked together to make something. I do have a question about this alternative selection process.
- Richard Roth
Person
So if you have a banking lender and they have a consumer credit operation and they process, let's say 1000 credit applications a day, and they use one of these decision making tools and they've done the impact assessment and the impact assessment comes back no disparate impact. And A okay. But you have an individual request to be subjected to an alternative selection process. How does that work in that case? Maybe it's not 1000, maybe it's 5000 credit applications a day because it's some bigger bank, for example.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yeah. And I want to, so that language, when we crafted the language we put if technically feasible to address that. It's brought to attention in the banking industry specifically. Hopefully they'll back me up. But we are in serious conversation with them because they have unique circumstances where federally backed loans have to use federal technologies in order to be processed. And so we are, I think, very close on language with the banking industry specifically. So I just want to touch on that because...
- Richard Roth
Person
You could, you could substitute something else.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yes. Yes. So I want to start with banking just because I didn't know if others had specific questions about banking. But I'll go more broadly after that. I just wanted to address both the specific question and the broad question.
- Richard Roth
Person
Technically, you could hire more people and, you know, have 150 of them screening pieces of paper in a room and that would be technically feasible.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Right.
- Richard Roth
Person
But not very practical if you want to have timely response to people who are trying to do deals. So how do we deal with that in the context of this? Is there some move afoot?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yes. So we're continuing to talk about that. Like I said, we thought, technically feasible work. To your point, we've heard a lot of the opposition around that specific piece. And so we're trying to figure out a way to do that where it is possible, where it does make sense that somebody might want to opt out of these tools.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And, you know, I mean, I think there's an example recently of a tool that is used across different employers and somebody had applied to job after job where they were using the same tool and that person kept getting rejected over and over again and that person can't get an answer as to why this tool keeps rejecting them.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Right. And they can't get a human to review their application before they get rejected. And so, you know, I do think it's important that people have a way to identify that, to understand it, to deal with it. But to your point, the last thing I want to do, and that's why, from the very beginning of this legislation, you know, the biggest businesses that make these tools have been in conversation with me on this. How do you do these impact assessments? What's in these impact assessments?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So that this is not beyond the scope of what, again, not everybody's doing, but best in class is doing. And I think it is okay for us to ask everyone to rise to best in class, but we are absolutely continuing to work on that opt out language. I hear it. And to the Chair's point, you know, I think the expert that will see it next will, you know, hopefully be seeing some of that.
- Richard Roth
Person
And then just one other, believe me, I'm going to support your bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yes. Thank you, Senator.
- Richard Roth
Person
One other point. You saw some healthcare people in here. It seemed to me, I seem to recall that in a healthcare environment, we had some legislation recently where if one of these decision making tools was utilized in a healthcare setting, there had to be a live health care person who reviewed the results before the action was taken. You might want to take a look at that and figure out how you build some of that in here because if legislation is already passed or people are already doing it, then maybe they don't, maybe they don't need to be subjected to this.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And that is one of the things that we are hopeful we got right. But continuing to hear about, which is that, and this is one of the things that I think the Chamber has been in conversations with us about, which is if a human is making the decision. So if you're using, for example, a credit check, but you're the landlord and you're making the decision, the credit check doesn't count under this bill.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
It actually has to be a tool that is making the decision. So in a medical setting, where you're using a tool to help advise you, but you have a physician, a nurse practitioner, whoever the case may be that's making the decision, this does not apply. So the tool has to be the primary decision maker. The substantial factor in making the decision. That's the language.
- Richard Roth
Person
I'm not an expert. I suspect they may use a tool, for example, in utilization review, to determine when it's time to discharge Patient A. But that decision then having been identified by the tool, then has to be reviewed before they give your walking papers.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Right.
- Richard Roth
Person
Okay. As long as you're taking a look at that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yes. Yes.
- Richard Roth
Person
Perfect.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you, Senator.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you, Senator. Other questions? Senator Caballero, then Senator Durazo.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I've taken the position in this committee that I try to follow the Chair. He's got a tough road to hoe. And with as many Assembly bills as came over, this was a tough, this was a tough week. But I am as concerned as the Chair. And part of it is we're breaking new ground and we're not creating a... The system is not utilizing the civil rights statute that deals with discrimination. It's creating its own category, if you will, in my mind.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
And so I heard what you had to say in regards to some of the concerns, small businesses, penalties, compliance experts, and actual harm as opposed to a... Well, actual harm as opposed to unlawful discrimination or looking at it as unlawful discrimination. So I'm just concerned because I see where you're trying to go. I appreciate it.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
But I also think that we need to make sure we're not discouraging small startups here, that we give people a right to fix whatever we think the problem is, and that the penalty should only accrue if there's been actual harm or intentional in terms of how the model is created, so that it, so that it could have been easily fixed. It could have been easily identified with the compliance work that you're talking about.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
So just my thoughts right now. I'm going to support the recommendation, and I will support the bill, but I think that we need to be careful exactly how we utilize this. And as we have the industry developing that we don't go down a road where we become really punitive in a way that ends up discouraging... What we want is we want the banks to be able to determine who should get a loan and who shouldn't.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
But we also want to make sure that they're not discriminating and they haven't been lazy or how they've created the AI system has not been intentionally utilizing data that has racial bias in it, or racial, or gender for that matter. So anyway, I'm kind of rambling, but there are a number of issues that I had some concern about, concerns about, and look forward to continuing to have a discussion in the future.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Senator Durazo.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
You and Senator Roth were already talking about the healthcare industry, so I just wanted to specifically ask you about that. And then it's not just limited to the healthcare industry, but I noticed the Nurses Association is concerned about protecting the rights of workers under a collective bargaining agreement, and that cuts across any industry.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
But they specifically coming out of the healthcare industry, I thought there would be that connection. So if you have anything on that. And then second is, I think there's been reference to this, is we've had a number of bills, AI bills come through the committee.
- MarĆa Elena Durazo
Legislator
And I'm just wondering how, at the end of the day, how do all these bills interact? And have you thought as you introduced it or now as a result of getting the feedback, how does automated decision tools, how does that compete with other bills or with regulations that an agency may be working for? So any thoughts on those too?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Yes. So I think it's really important. I want to be incredibly clear, to TechEquity's credit, they created a roundtable, if you will, of folks that labor was absolutely at. So they have brought their input to the table, which I think is really important because they protect our workers.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And nothing in this bill would prevent collective bargaining would interfere with that process. This bill merely talks about basically testing these things before they're deployed. And so we did talk to Leg Counsel about that and we'll go back, but we don't think that this interferes with that at all.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So just want to make sure that's clear, that that's... They're at the table. We're having that conversation, first and foremost. And then it's interesting you asked that question about AI bills. Assembly Member Dixon asked that question earlier in my committee today.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
It's an important question, and I think it's something, I mean, you heard me compliment Christian at the beginning of this, because since before we started hearing bills in February, you know, our staff's working together to make sure we were trying to drive trains in the same direction.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And there's been a lot of work that the staff have done to do that. And I'm really grateful for that because I think it's so important. And so, yes, you know, this bill is in its second year, and I think that as for those other bills that are really important and I've supported and I think are critically important, and the privacy agency is doing regulations.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Part of the reason we're continuing to move this is the privacy regulations are not entirely, I think, in line with what I think our legislative intent is, and that's what we as a Legislature get to decide. But we are in conversations with them. The definition of AI that was moved through both committees already is aligned so that we're making sure that there's not inconsistency.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But, you know, I think the critical point here, and this addresses a little bit of what Senator Caballero said, is that the bill fundamentally says that, if you're creating a tool that makes a consequential decision, and we list those, right. So housing, healthcare, employment, the things that we fundamentally need in our lives.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And the tool itself is going to make that decision. So not a doctor, not a landlord, but the tool, you have to test it. You have to do an impact assessment. And then we can ask for that impact assessment as a government, and we can make sure you're doing your diligence to make sure you're not putting discriminatory tools out into the world.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And I actually think that, and we took out, there was a PRA, I want to be very clear, I took out the PRA, which I know the Chair would have had me take it anyways, but we did that. So we are trying to be incredibly thoughtful that this doesn't overlap with civil rights laws.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Civil rights laws are important. I'm not touching them. That AG asked that we clarify that, and we have. This merely says that, if you're going to use these tools and you're going to buy these tools, you're going to know they were tested, and we're going to make sure that they were tested.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And I just don't think that that's that much ask, especially since you can ask Workday, Microsoft, others, they're doing this. I'm not actually asking them to do anything beyond what they are already doing today. And so again, there is nuance across industries about the opt out about other things.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
But I think that asking them to do that and asking them to turn it over when we ask for it again and protecting their trade secrets, which we worked really hard to get right, I think is really not earth shattering legislation or incredibly burdensome. I think it is what our communities will need. Because if AI innovation is going to happen, communities need to trust it. And I think that what we're doing here is building trust. And so we've worked really hard to try to make it narrow and, you know, we will continue to do that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
I know that Ro is probably cringing when I say narrow, but, you know, I think we are trying to make sure the obligations on industry are acceptable. I will also note, we have a small business exception in here. So that is something we considered and put into the language. So I've worked really hard to try to reach that balance, and I acknowledge that we are not there. So I don't want to misstate what is said, but that is the goal.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Other questions or comments? Senator Stern.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Thanks. I know we're, yeah, 11th hour or whatever hour it is, but appreciate you going into details on all this. And look, taking on a big issue, trying to cast a wide net, not just picking an industry by industry, but actually working through the whole issue. It's really a necessary endeavor. So I applaud you for all the detailed work.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I'm just trying to, I think some of my questions have already been answered. I guess maybe just to put a fine point on a few. So it sounds like this opt out question on the mortgage side of things, you're working on it, trying to land that. The concern was about if everything went to manual underwriting, then suddenly, you know, even like our own state agencies can't process these mortgages. So that'd be a problem. So I appreciate that effort to try to land that piece.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
To Senator Durazo's point on the Nurses Association question, this notion of like sort of, I think the essence was a post hiring employment related ADTs so that it wasn't just on the front end of trying to find the job, but once you already have the job using that. Is that where you're sort of saying you're heading or is that getting ahead of where you're heading on that?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
On the post? Sorry. So on the, on excluding post hiring employment related decisions. Because it sounds like you're really concerned on the front end of people getting discriminated against. But is that, when you say we have labor at the table, is that... Is that where...
- Mariko Yoshihara
Person
Definitely don't want to speak for labor, but we've been in coalition, having conversations with them. I think the issue is that, definitely on the pre-hiring, like when this is used pre-hiring, that's where we really see a discriminatory impact, a disparate impact.
- Mariko Yoshihara
Person
There's a lot of other issues when you are now employed, where tools are being used, ADTs being used, not necessarily in a way that is going to be discriminatory based on your race, gender, but it has impacts on the health and safety of the job or how a person is paid.
- Mariko Yoshihara
Person
And there are all these other impacts that I think, from an employment perspective, there's just, we need to make sure all of that's covered too. And so that's where some of those conversations are happening. How can we make sure that, yes, we want discrimination covered too, but let's make sure some of the other things are covered as well.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So if I understand that not necessarily planning to exclude then post hiring employment related ADTs, but some other third way here where it's not excluded, but you're, I don't know what, trying to nuance that just to get a sense. It's okay.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So, and they are, I mean, to be clear, they're still in a support position because we were in conversation them. So I just want to make sure.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Yep, understood. I'm just sort of. Yeah.
- Mariko Yoshihara
Person
Yeah, We're having... So in terms of the whole coalition, there's quite a few of us. We're trying to get everyone, you know, into support. So we're having a lot of conversations with the author's office on, you know, what that would entail. But I do know that there are separate conversations, just generally having a bill for employment and what that would look like. And so I think there's just conversations on how this bill fits in with that.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
I mean, ideally, these tools can actually help employers make the workplace better for employees. And that, I mean, I know it wouldn't create as many jobs for employment lawyers, but that we can obviate the need for as many hourly violations, as much wage theft, workplace discrimination, those kinds of things.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So ideally, we can turn these tools to our or benefit and not sort of be a detriment. So appreciate the effort there. Look forward to seeing what comes out of that. The only one that I think hasn't been drilled down on, at least on my list, is this... Just this line between where the human decision cuts off and where, like, this is, you talk about the substantial factor test. Like, were the tools making the decision versus the person's making the decision. So I thought this hypothetical might help me understand better where this is going.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
So say I run a big company, and I want to do more work with women owned businesses or women and minority owned businesses. And I go search for that within whatever my Salesforce CRM, and I specifically want to contract with them and not necessarily with any business. Am I...
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Is that a human decision at that point, or is that the tool making that decision? Because I guess I'm somewhat discriminating as that business owner to say I want to work with women and minority owned businesses, and I'm inherently kind of excluding other businesses to see who in my region does that kind of work. So help me with that line. Like, is that me... Is that me as a human making that decision, or is the tool then making that decision? And therefore, would that kind of search be barred?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Okay, so nothing bars this. I mean, we talk, we're not talking about civil rights law because that's not the subject. So civil rights law might deal with that, but that's not the subject of today's conversation. So nothing would bar your search. Right. So again, I want to remember that all we're doing is saying when I build that tool, that CRM, I need to test it to make sure if you put in a search, you're not... You know, I mean, an example, and I'm going to give Amazon credit. Amazon built their own hiring tool. They tested it.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
It was for, I believe, engineers. They tested it. It was trained on who their current population of engineers were, which not surprising to anybody on this dais, was mostly men. So the tool learned to select men. And Amazon caught that and didn't deploy it. Right. I think they were public about it, in fact.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
And that's the kind of thing we're talking about. They tested it. They saw that it was picking the men because it thought men were better engineers because there were more male engineers. And so they stopped it. They didn't deploy it. You could then fix that.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
You could provide it with new data, you could modify it and retest it and deploy it. So I just want to be clear about what the bill does. And the substantial factor piece. What we don't want, I mean, what I think we're trying to find the balance, which is very hard to do in language, is we don't want someone who's just pressing a button and now saying the ADT isn't making the decision. Right. Because now you have a human who's going, boop, boop, boop, right.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Clearly, the ADT is making the decision. But we also want the landlord that gets that credit report, and they're looking at the credit report and they're looking at other factors. The credit report isn't making the decision. Right. The landlord is. So that should not be included. Right. So how we find the difference, the right language, is still something we're working on, but that's what we're trying to achieve. I hope that was clear.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Yeah. Can I just add, I don't think a Salesforce database is making a decision...
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Let me just ask if that answered your question.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Almost.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Continue if you like.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Yeah, if you don't mind the indulgence. I know it's a long hearing. I just, the issue is that hypothetical, right? So I get that it wouldn't bar the use of that tool, but if you're Salesforce and you're designing your tool and you're testing your tool, does that mean that the test would show up, that would trigger this kind of, that would trigger that algorithmic discrimination?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
If the tool would allow you, say, to discriminate or distinguish between... And maybe those are similar words depending on how an algorithm works. But from a minority or a woman owned business to other businesses, like, could they not even design that into the tool in the first place?
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Well, I don't believe a search of a Salesforce database would meet the definition of artificial intelligence as outlined in this bill. I don't believe. It's not making the decision for you responding to your search. We're talking about like if a landlord is doing a background check and a tenant screening algorithm tells them this tenant is, however, likely to pay rent or not, based on totally opaque and non-transparent data that may be biased.
- Catherine Bracy
Person
Now that landlord is liable for that decision and that landlord doesn't have the information they need to know whether they are violating that person's civil rights or not. So I think we're talking about tools that make decisions and produce recommendations and decisions, not databases that help you sort through data to make your own decision.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
But if I, you know, if I'm a business that's not a minority, woman-owned business, and I want an alternate decision process then because I know that I could be select, you know, I could be pushed out of the searching, you know. I don't know. Wouldn't then a bunch of other class of people be entitled to it? Yeah.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So I think if, I understand the question, Senator, one of the things actually that came up immediately with Dr. Weber when we wrote this bill was she said, in the healthcare setting, we actually need tools that do, quote unquote, discriminate because sometimes you have a population of people that have different healthcare factors, for example. Right.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So we actually do treat different people based on sometimes their race and ethnicity differently in a healthcare setting. Right. And that's, so that's, you know, we're making sure that we're taking into consideration that, I think, if that's what you're asking. Because we don't want to harm people when they're trying to. That's a benefit. Right. So the question is, is it creating negative bias? Right. And if it is, retest it and fix it before you deploy it. Again, I really think that that's not a burden that folks should...
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Okay. I guess it would just help to wrap that thread up and then I'll stop. Just to know going forward, that line, I get you have the substantial factor test, but how, and do you anticipate refining it? Right. That distinction going forward. Do you guys think it's good as is or do you anticipate further refinements of that test of the line between human and tool making decision?
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
So that's absolutely something we're still talking about.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you, Senator Stern. Other questions or comments? Seeing no other questions or comments, is there a motion? Senator Caballero moves the bill. All right, thank you very much.
- Rebecca Bauer-Kahan
Legislator
Thank you. Respectfully ask for your aye vote. And thank you for the robust conversation.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty, thank you. And I appreciate your movement. As I mentioned moment ago, many moments ago, that I anticipate further movements. So thanks. All right, Madam Secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 63, AB 2930. The motion is do pass as amended to Senate Appropriations. [Roll Call] You have six to two with Members missing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, 6-2. We'll put that on call. All right, thank you. Assembly Member Alvarez. So by the way, just to... I confessed error too quickly, Senator Laird, because it was only 10 hours. It just seemed to you to be 11 hours. All right, all right, all right. Way to... Right. There's a good... That was a very good save. All right. Assembly Member Alvarez, AB 1472. Or you can do 1597. You want to do 1597?
- David Alvarez
Legislator
He's up here already, so I...
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Come on.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Might as well. Trying to move you along a little more quickly. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Do them both at the same time. So. Okay.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Is that allowed? I don't know if the rules allow for that. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Members.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Mr. Chair and Members who are still with us here appreciate the opportunity to present Assembly Bill 1597 and would like to start by accepting the Committee amendments. This bill represents an innovative and smart approach towards addressing the environmental disaster that is occurring on our southern border.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Just for context, we are now roughly at 1000 days since the beach at Imperial Beach has been closed and not accessible to the residents of South San Diego, all of which is in my district for several decades now, and in fact, for my entire lifetime, the Tijuana River in San Diego.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
And not just my lifetime, but many others lifetime. The San Diego County and New River and Imperial County have experienced billions of gallons of untreated wastewater, industrial toxins, and solid waste and sediment flowing through the waterways.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
These two watersheds that are shared between California, a state, and Mexico, a country, are frequently ranked as the most contaminated waterways in the United States. AB 1597 would authorize Cal EPA to enter into agreements with the North American Development Bank for water quality improvement projects in these binational watersheds.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
The North American Development Bank, known as NADBank, is a federal institution created by NAFTA in 1994 to specifically address environmental issues and implement projects along the US Mexico border.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
NADBank also has agreements like these with the state of Texas, and since 1997, NADBank has received $711 million in public funding, which they've leveraged for a total investment of $11.5 billion on environmental projects specifically along the border. That is a one to 15 public capital investment ratio.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
AB 1597 would allow California to be a partner in those efforts. I've included several amendments that strengthen enforcement for the state, and I also accept the Committee's amendments listed in the analysis. The bill supports, supported by a very large coalition of public agencies and environmental groups, has no opposition and zero, no votes.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
I'd like to turn it over now to our primary witness.
- Jonathan Clay
Person
Good evening, Mr. Chair and Committee Members. Jonathan Clay here on behalf of the Port of San Diego. In support. I'll just keep this short building on what the Assemblymember said. I'm literally the second generation to work on this Tijuana River problem. As a region, San Diego has always come together to try and address these issues.
- Jonathan Clay
Person
Legislation from a few years back, SB 507 from Senator Weiso, was an in depth study to look at all the different projects on both sides of the border that could be used to help address this.
- Jonathan Clay
Person
Being able to utilize the ability of the NADBank to be able to do projects on both sides of the border through the international boundaries and Water Commission will be extremely helpful in trying to get at some of these projects.
- Jonathan Clay
Person
NADBank is something that at least those of us in San Diego are very aware of and as a trusted entity, same with IBWC. And there are some innovative things that those entities, along with local governments in San Diego, are exploring to try and do things on both sides of the border.
- Jonathan Clay
Person
With that, we urge your support of this measure.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
. Thank you very much. Next witness.
- Kyra Ross
Person
Thank you. Kira Ross. On behalf of the City of Coronado, just very quickly this evening, strong support for the bill. We're very thankful for the author's efforts on this. Coronado is one of the communities that has continued to see cross border pollution and see our beaches closed again and again. So we're very supportive of the bill.
- Kyra Ross
Person
And I'll just also note that I've been asked to voice support from the League of California Cities, the California State Association of Counties, and the Rural County Representatives of California. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, witnesses in support of AB 1597, please approach the microphone.
- Brenda Bass
Person
Good afternoon or evening. I'm Brenda Bass with KP Public Affairs on behalf of the California Chamber of Commerce and support.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support. Seeing no one else approaches. Microphone. Let's talk to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 1597, please approach. Seeing no one approaching. Let's bring it back to Committee for questions by Committee Members. Committee Members, what questions or comments do you have? Senator Rosso wishes to make a motion. Thank you very much.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Senator Rosso has moved the bill. All right. First, thank you very much, Senator Alvarez, you've worked very hard on this bill. I appreciate you accepting the amendments. So, having said that, would you like to close?
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I appreciate an aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
. All right. Thank you. All right, Madam Secretary, please call vote.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 66, AB 1597. Motion is do pass as amended to Senate appropriations.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call] 6-0.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We'll put that on call. All right, thank you, Estelle. Next Bill, AB 1472.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Thank you, Mister chair. I'll try to work through this one briefly as well. Appreciate the opportunity to present AB 1472 for those who are returning Members of this Committee. You might remember this Bill. It was granted reconsideration, in which, again, I thank the chair and the Committee for that opportunity.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
I want to thank everybody for the work on this Assembly.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Bill 1472 addresses the unfair business practice known as the RV shuffle, which involves evicting and relocating tenants in their RVs from an authorized Rv Park, usually for a period of 48 hours every several months to avoid tenants gaining residency status, certain tenancy status that would provide them from substantive tenant protections.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
This practice is impacting the constituents of my community of Imperial beach, many of whom are elderly adults on fixed income, Spanish speakers, whoever resorted to RV living, in part due to the cost of living and housing in California, many of the individuals have lived in the park for many years, 10 years or longer, and have been threatened with permanent eviction if you do not comply with the RV shuffle.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
In 2004, the state Legislature enacted AB 2867 to discourage similar practice that is occurring in residential hotels. AB 1472 ensures that residents are living without the fear and intimidation of being force to frequently relocate.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Since last year, we took concerns that were brought up by this Committee, very, very specific concerns, asked me to come back and make this a district Bill, as I had initiated before coming over to the Senate, so that this would only apply to the City of Imperial beach. We have done that.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
The amended Bill is supported still by the City of Imperial beach, who initially enacted a temporary moratorium to provide residents with some protection and relief. But since special occupancy occupancy parks fall under the state's jurisdiction, state legislation is required to extend that protection beyond what the city has already done.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
So, at a time when California is in dire need of all types of affordable housing, we should not be evicting residents who have found suitable shelter and are able to abide by all other rules, including paying their monthly rent. And for that reason, I'd respectfully request your support in this reconsideration of this Bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. All right, other witnesses in support of AB 1472, please approach the microphone. Seeing no one approaching, let's talk to the opposition. If you're opposed to AB 1472, please come forward.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Pleasure to see you all again, even if it's late hour. I'll make it quick. We've got to grab the microphone. There we go. Thank you. There we go.
- Diana Kelly
Person
Diana Kelly with the California Outdoor Hospitality Association. We respectfully continue to oppose AB 1472 on the grounds that it is unnecessary, unwarranted, and it sets a precedence that could have a detrimental impact on future RV parks.
- Diana Kelly
Person
AB 1472 targets a mobile home park with 77 rv spaces and any new parks that are going to be built within those city limits. It will actually have the opposite effect of what the Bill is trying to achieve. The trigger here is for this legislation is when a tenant wants to return to the park.
- Diana Kelly
Person
There's nothing in the Bill that provides for a set period of vacancy before a return. So there will be no option for a guest to come back to the park at any time in the future without potential detriment to the park owner.
- Diana Kelly
Person
Furthermore, unless amended, this legislation still applies to an occupant, tenant or resident, making it more confusing. That should have been changed last year. A vacationer wanting to return to a new park would not be able to without the owner being subject to fines based on this legislation.
- Diana Kelly
Person
And lastly, new information has come to light recently that the park in question has abandoned its desire to become a transient park and now only offers long term extended stays. I confirm this practice today by actually doing a secret shopper on the park and was able to confirm that information.
- Diana Kelly
Person
The park owner settled into an agreement with the city, and they agreed that if he moved to a long term park, they would release their moratorium. That moratorium has been released, and the city has agreed.
- Diana Kelly
Person
We have documentation both in email and letter format to prove that we believe at this time that there's just no longer a need for this legislation, and we are asking for a no vote. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Wow. 157. Very impressive. Anybody else in the room that wants to add a me two testimony? Seeing none, bring it back to the Committee.
- John Laird
Legislator
Senator Laird, Mister chair. Last year, we considered this Bill twice, and each time we said he needed to narrow it to a district Bill. He has done it. I moved the Bill.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you for that. Anybody else? No seeing. We have a motion. You may close.
- David Alvarez
Legislator
Thank you. As was stated by Senator Laird, this Committee gave us direction on what to do. We have done that, and we bring that Bill to you today. And I'd respectfully ask for your. I vote. Move this forward. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
With that secretary, please call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 65, AB 1472. The motion is do pass to Senate appropriations. [Roll Call] Three to one.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay, current votes, three to one. We will leave that open. Thank you very much. Plenty of colleagues that have yet to vote, so. Assemblywoman Aguilar Curry, now you know how. Now you know the pain that Senator Umberg and I feel every week.
- John Laird
Legislator
I'm so tempted to move to adjourned.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay. We have a motion to adjourn. Non debatable.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
You know, that's almost funny. And, you know, it's even funnier. My beginning. Good morning. Good morning, Mister chair and Senators. First, I'd like to say thank you very much for sticking this out. I mean, I can't imagine having to go through this many bills.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
So thank you very much and thank you for the people of our constituents, for all the good work you're doing. I'd like to thank you and your staff for the work on this Bill. I'll keep my comments brief for the purposes of this hearing, but I'm prepared to have to answer questions.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
Since July 2011, California consumers have paid a carpet stewardship assessment fee when purchasing carpet sold in California. These fees Fund a statewide carpet recycling program known as the Carpet America Recovery Effort, also known as CARE, which is a producer responsibility organization designed and implemented by carpet manufacturers with Cal recycle oversight.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
Four major processors in California are no longer in operation, part because we need to improve management of our system, one of those closed down in my district. Opponents here today will say that their recycling rates are going up and that they are meeting their goals.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
But CARE's current claims of success are based on recovery rate that compares the carpet recycled to declining carpet sales. This inflates the recovery numbers and poorly depicts how the current market shift to other types of flooring is really affecting the carpet recycling program.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
I've spent over two years learning about the state of the current carpet recycling program and where different flooring entities are at with recycling efforts. My staff has had dozens of meetings with stakeholders in that time, including double digit meetings with CARE and its representatives.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
As a result, I have decided to remove the synthetic turf from the Bill and will continue conversations about turf next year. Should this Bill make it out of Committee today, I will continue to work with stakeholders and Committee.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
I've amended the AB 863 to what I can confidently propose as a fix to the way the carpet recycling program is run. With me to testify in support of the Bill is Heidi Sanborn, Executive Director of the National Stewardship Action Council and Val with the International Union of Partners, Allied Trades District Council six.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Welcome. And each of you get two minutes.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
Thank you, Members. I'm Heidi Sanborn with the National Stewardship Action Council, the sponsor of the Bill. And we're here to fix the problems with the existing carpet recycling program and address the new products that are entering the market and increasing in market share, taking away from the carpet sales that have no recycling system in place currently.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
And therefore we're going to establish a more fair and level playing field. In the flooring category, the top five reasons that we need this Bill now is that the collectors, number one, are not getting paid in this program.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
If you recycle to collect carpet, you don't get paid for the labor to do that like you do in the mattress program. That's why the Conservation Corps testified and supported this Bill, because they have one Conservation Corps collecting and they will not do it in the other 13 cores, recyclers, we have four that remain.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
One of those four is getting more than 50% of the carpet. The other three are splitting the rest and they are not getting enough. They're poaching each other's carpet supply because more than 50% is still ending up in the landfill 14 years after this program started.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
Three is that we're failing to meet the goals and we have a consistent enforcement problem. As late as January of this year, Cal Recycle found that the 2022 annual report was non compliant and they were fined $1.2 million in penalties in 2022 for multiple failures of the program. Four is funding. There's not enough money.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
The sales are dropping and the fee continues to go up, but the funding is dropping and that's a problem. And five is market development. We really need more carpet to be recycled into carpet. Right now, the carpet industry is using clean food grade water bottles to make recycled content and carpet.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
But if we had carpet to carpet, we'd have a market and the bottlers would be much happier. In fact, I believe several of them are here today to testify and support. So what the Bill does for collectors is we're going to ensure that we're going to the EPR program will have to pay the collectors.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
So finally we'll have more collection locations and make it more convenient for consumers and free drop off. We shouldn't be charging a fee when they buy it and then a fee when they dispose it should all be upfront. The recyclers will get the carpet that they need.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
We've got mandatory sorting in the Bill to make sure that they get the carpet, and we'll have more collection locations so that it can get to them. Three is the oversight. Again, we're going to solve that. We've got increased penalties.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
We did not double it like we had wanted to go to 50,000, we did 25 because they said the opposition wanted that and we agreed. We want to revisit the recycling rate in the formulas, we said, and funding. We're going to add carpet pad, they're already collecting it, but they're not getting funding for it.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
So this will help Fund the program. And then lastly, market development. Again, we really need to get the clean food grade water bottles out of carpet and into bottles. So for these reasons, we ask for your aye vote thank you. We're not paying attention.
- Heidi Sanborn
Person
oh, did I? I'm sorry.
- Val Chestohin
Person
It's okay. She was named person of the year by the Carmichael Chamber of Commerce this year and the parade.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I'll be quick. You know what? We're not going to be in the parade because we're going to be up here probably.
- Val Chestohin
Person
Yes, sir. Hello Committee. My name is Val Chestowan. I represent district council 16, the Iupat. My region is Northern California and the State of Nevada. I have been in this industry for 39 years, 18 of that as an instructor.
- Val Chestohin
Person
I'm here today to see if you have any questions in regards to the importance of the installation of the carpet that is to be recycled, the training of any aspects of it that you would like to ask questions on, and how we're working with our apprentices and then also with care.
- Val Chestohin
Person
We did work with care, we tried to work with care. They were unable to fulfill a lot of their commitments that they had made to us. They did not honor what they said that they would do. So now we're almost at a standstill with working with care.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay, great with that. Anybody else in the room that wants to add me to testimony and support, please line up.
- Mike West
Person
Mister chair Members Mike West on behalf of the State Building Construction Trades Council and support.
- Chris Micheli
Person
Thank you, thank you Mister chair. Chris Mcheli on behalf of Niagara bottling support and my colleague Eloy Garcia asked me to convey his client IBWA. Their international bottled Water Association also supports it. Thank you, thank you.
- Jordan Wells
Person
Jordan Wells expressing support for the following organizations. Aquafil, Circular Polymers, Zero Waste, Sonoma, Calperg, Marin Sanitary Service, Mojave Desert and Mountain Recycling Authority, Sacramento Splash, Russian Hill Neighbors, Rise Building Solutions, National Waste Recovery, Broadview Group, Arizona Alternative materials, Apex Manufacturing, Re-terra Corporation, Transportec Logistics, Clover Plastics Circular Strategy, Better Image Recycling, Sea Hugger Product Stewardship Institute, Repurposed Earths, Crystal Materials, Frankfurt Plastics and herbal Mikashim. I'm not sure how to say that. Thank you, Clifton Wilson.
- Clifton Wilson
Person
On behalf of the San Joaquin County Board of Supervisors as well as stop waste, Western Plaster Waste Management Authority, the California Product Stewardship Council, Solid Waste Association of North America, Legislative Task Force, California chapters, all in support. Thank you.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
Thank you. Bear with me. I've got vertigo and I'm like holding on to something just to stand. A horrible thing to have. It's terrible. It's terrible. My name is Robert Smith. I'm with the painters and allied Trades District Council 36 Southern California, Arizona and New Mexico, and we strongly urge you to pass this Bill. Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you, sir. Here comes our closer, Bob Giroux.
- Bob Giroux
Person
On behalf of the International Union of Painters and Allied Trades, on behalf of President James C. Williams Junior, we would like our apprenticeship programs to be able to install this right correctly. Currently there are 60% of all carpet that is installed does not get recycled. Because it's because of the epoxies and the adhesives that are used.
- Bob Giroux
Person
We believe that this Bill will arrive at the right solution. Thank you very much.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank you. oh, you want to. zero, no, you're not here to me to support it. Well, then come take a seat up front. So, it looks like we have two speakers. Each of you gentlemen get two minutes. Who's going to go first?
- Randy Pollack
Person
Thank you, Mister Vice Chair Randy Pollock. On behalf of the Carpet and Rug Institute, we're a Member of the care stewardship and I think it's very important to look at how far this program has been successful over the last 10 to 12 years. Now, the proponents mention a couple problems with our program.
- Randy Pollack
Person
The one thing I just want to correct, initially, Miss Sanborn had mentioned that we had been fined for 2022, 1.5 million or 1.2 million. That was actually for 2020. During COVID all of our businesses were closed by an Executive order. But we are still held in noncompliance for not having our businesses open.
- Randy Pollack
Person
So I just want to clarify that additionally, when we deal with facts, let's look where we are today. In 2022, we met nine out of 10 goals and we missed the other one by just a few percentage points. 2023, we met 12 out of 13 goals. We continue to increase our collection sites.
- Randy Pollack
Person
We have over 350 collection sites. We keep adding them every day. So the program is working. Our recycling rate continues to increase. For the first quarter of 2024, we're at 41%. Our goal for this year is 34%. So this program is working.
- Randy Pollack
Person
It's very difficult for businesses where you start changing the rules of the game, because right now we have a plan that's been approved by Cal Recycle, which was improved in April of 2023. We are adhering to those goals, and many of them we are exceeding.
- Randy Pollack
Person
So now people are coming back and saying, well, you want to know something? We really don't like the goals that have been approved by Cal Recycle and we're going to change them on you. We don't think that's fair. We believe there are improvements to the program. Absolutely. We're more than willing to sit down.
- Randy Pollack
Person
But what this Bill does is it dismantles the whole program. It creates a pro. So what you're going to do here is you're going to validate hundreds of contracts. All the collection sites are going to go away and going to have to start new. The processors aren't going to quite sure whether they're going to get the carpet.
- Randy Pollack
Person
So we're saying, why would we go to a program like that when we should continue to work on the current stewardship program? And for, and one last thing I'll mention, for the unions, we have done over 200 trainings of apprentices, we have provided trailers to the unions, we have websites, we have materials in both English and Spanish.
- Randy Pollack
Person
CARE is available 247 to go out to their facility and to do training. For those reasons, we are opposed to the Bill. Thank you.
- Anthony Samson
Person
Good evening Mister chair Members Anthony Sampson here on behalf of the Resilient Floor Coverings Institute. RFCI is a trade Association comprised of resilient floor covering producers that manufacture vinyl composition tile, luxury tile, solid vinyl tile, sheet vinyl tile, rubber tile, sheet rubber linoleum, and other types of resilient flooring.
- Anthony Samson
Person
Let me first start by thanking the Assembly Member, her staff and her sponsor for reaching out to RFCI after the Bill was introduced and for meeting with us since that time. RFCI understands and appreciates the importance of conducting a needs assessment before establishing an end of life management program.
- Anthony Samson
Person
But it's important to keep in mind that resilient flooring encompasses several types of flooring products with a broad range of physical properties and applications. Indeed, different types of resilient flooring face different and distinct challenges in terms of technical and infrastructure needs associated with recycling.
- Anthony Samson
Person
For this reason, as we've discussed with the author, her staff and sponsor, we believe that upon completion of a needs assessment, Cal Recycle should instead issue a report to the Legislature determining whether an end of life management program for resilient flooring is viable, and if so, Cal Recycle would issue recommendations as to how to establish an end of life management program for resilient flooring.
- Anthony Samson
Person
RFCI would stand ready at that time to work with Assemblymember Aguirre Curry and this Committee through the course of a full legislative session to establish a program that works for manufacturers, consumers, recyclers, and other entities throughout the supply chain.
- Anthony Samson
Person
RFCI and its Members have decades of experience and technical expertise in this area, and establishing a new program of this magnitude on a new product category will require extensive dialogue between the assemblymember and our technical experts, which is a dialogue we are open to having after the completion of a needs assessment.
- Anthony Samson
Person
Thanks for considering our comments and we look forward to our continued dialogue with the Assembly Member and this Committee.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Very good. Thank you for that testimony. Do we have any? Me too. Testimony in opposition.
- Margrete Snyder
Person
I'm Meg Snyder, axiom Advisors, on behalf of both the vinyl Institute and the California Building Industry Association. Opposed?
- John Moffatt
Person
Thank you. John Moffat, on behalf of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation and Shaw Industries post Greg Earner, on behalf of the Synthetic Turf Council. As the author mentioned, she's going to be removing us from the Bill, and at that time, we'll be removing our opposition as well.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All right, thank you. Okay, bring it back to Committee. Questions, comments, concerns?
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Senator Caballero, thank you very much, Mister chair. Well, I hate gutting amends, so let me just say that. But I know this author, she does very, very good work. And although I think it needs. There's a lot of work still to be done.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I'm going to give you a courtesy vote today, and I'll move the bell when it's appropriate. We got to get this right, and it's got to work for everybody. And I'd like to see us get to a point where everybody's off and feeling like it's going in the right direction. So enough said.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Thank goodness. Senator Allen, I've been waiting for you.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
It's been a long, long day.
- Scott Wilk
Person
No. And you're making it longer.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Yes, well, all I will say is that. Well, what I will say is there's a lot of work to be done this summer. I agree with the comments from Senator Caballero. I do hold the work in the National Stewardship Action Council in high esteem, and I think there's a real path here.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
I will say that during the SB 54 negotiations, the carpet program was brought up repeatedly as what we wanted to avoid the mistakes we didn't want to make as we crafted SB 54. So, work has to happen here.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
Now the question is, is it going to happen this year or is it going to end up being a next year Bill? And I think that's a going to be ultimately up to everyone sitting before us. Every EPR Bill is different.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
You can't just splotch down an EPR model onto a new product without really going through all the details of the industry supply chain, the mechanics, the logistics, the workforce issues. It's complicated. It's really complicated.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
And so I'm just hopeful that with the very talented people here, both at the dais and also the folks who have spoken, that you can come to some strong solution for the State of California. I know it's not going to be easy, and quite frankly, I have no idea whether you're going to be successful.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
A lot of these bills, we have a good sense of whether it's going to succeed or not. I just don't know. But I'm obviously following it very closely as someone who cares a great deal about EPR programs, who cares a lot great deal about this model. And so I'm just hopeful, and I wish you all godspeed.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
I know it's going to ruin your vacations, but I'm certainly going to support the Bill today. But I think we have to go in sober eyed about the prospects and really hope that we're able to strike a good deal here that's going to address the very real issues that the Bill seeks to address.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Okay. Thank you for sharing that. Seeing no mics up, we have a motion from Senator Caballero. So, Assembly woman, you may close.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
I'll make it quick. I just want to. The Bill looks at the future by including a needs assessment for resilient flooring to help figure out how the popular material can be a part of the circular economy.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
We are working with those that are in the resilient flooring regarding the resilient flooring issue, and we look forward to continuing the quest on getting this across the finish line. And I appreciate it. Thank you. Asking for your. I vote.
- Scott Wilk
Person
And with that secretary. Call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
This is file item 68, AB 863. The motion is do pass to Senate appropriations. Umberg? [Roll Call] Four to two, right.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Four to two. We'll leave that open for colleagues to sign on.
- Cecilia Aguiar-Curry
Legislator
Thank you.
- Scott Wilk
Person
All right. If we could all focus. We're down to our final item, item 70, AB 1971 by Assemblywoman Addis. My goal is to get us done and out of here before the Chairman gets back. So let's see if we can make that happen.
- John Laird
Legislator
Mr. Chair, do I assume the inference from your statement was, is that we would be lifting calls after the 70th and final bill and that everybody should be making their way to the room to do that?
- Scott Wilk
Person
I just do this gig part time. You're the professional. So, yeah. If you are listening, staff or Senators have said on this Committee, come now, because we're moving today.
- Richard Roth
Person
Didn't I hear you say, Mr. Chair, that you're going to close the roll after the first go around?
- Scott Wilk
Person
Actually, we could do that. Okay. That's what I offer. All right. Floor is yours.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
Well, thank you so much, honorable chair, Members of the Committee, staff. I want to thank my staff as well as the witnesses that are here today.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
Today I'm here to ask for your aye vote on AB 1971, the Student Privacy Protection Act, which amends the Student Online Personal Information Protection Act, or SOPIPA, closing loopholes that leave student information vulnerable to irresponsible usage on educational website. This bill does one main thing.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
It clarifies that student data gathered standardized testing platform such as SAT, ACT, AP test platforms, is covered by privacy protections. We have been working closely with the Committee as well as the opposition. We're closer than ever to achieving the goal of AB 1971.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
Which is basically that these companies do not sell student data to social media companies. That's the sole thing we're trying to do. And so with that, I'll turn it over to my witness.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Thank you, Becca Cramer-Mowder on behalf of ACLU California Action in support. AB 1971 provides important updates to SOPIPA. When studying for an exam or in a test-taking environment, a teen is highly likely to fill out any and all boxes requested.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
Mixing consent processes with what are, for all practical purposes, mandatory processes muddies the authenticity of consent and essentially describes a dark pattern or a manipulative process to gain data from which an entity can commercially benefit. AB 1971 will separate out these processes, giving youth a true choice in when and how their personal information is used and shared.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
There are many examples in California statute when we ask companies to differentiate between how they treat information for the same person, depending on the context. If you would like examples, I'm happy to go into them, but I will keep it short for the interest of time.
- Becca Cramer Mowder
Person
It is reasonable and in line with many California privacy laws to ask an entity to treat information about a person differently depending on what the information is and how it is obtained. AB 1971 provides additional privacy protections to California youth, and for these reasons, we urge your aye vote. Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others in support of AB 1971, please approach
- Tracy Rosenberg
Person
Good evening, Tracy Rosenberg, Oakland Privacy in support of AB 1971 thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Others in support? Seeing no one else approaching. Opposition to AB 1971, please come forward. So I predicted we weren't going to be done till 10, so take your time. There's bets on this, so you have 3 hours, Right. Yes, right.
- Unidentified Speaker
Person
I'll pull the treatise out.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Just kidding. Go ahead. Floor is yours.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
Excellent. Mr. Chair and Members of the Committee, my name is Jennifer Smith. I serve as associate general counsel for privacy of the College Board. I have been in higher education for nearly my entire 20-year legal career, most recently joining College Board, having served as counsel for a university as well. College Board opposes AB 1971.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
As it appears before you today, this is an unfortunate situation of unintended consequences which will harm California students and families. This misguided bill attempts to amend SOPIPA, which governs EdTech in the classroom. The restrictions on use and disclosure of student data by EdTech vendors in the classroom make great sense with which we comply.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
But by design, this law does not govern what students and families do outside of school. It shatters the framework by adding to its scope administration of a standardized test taken on the weekend by students choice, paid for most often by their parents. Let me explain.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
Registering for the SAT weekend happens to a College Board website where students create a personal account. They share their data directly, to which their high schools do not and should not have access.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
Students use their personal account and their SAT data to create a profile to access programs and services, learn about and apply for scholarships, apply for financial aid. This bill may result in students losing control over their personal College Board accounts and be denied the college and career tools they may otherwise choose to use through that account.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
Even the basic sending of their AP exam scores could be jeopardized. Most troubling, applying SOPIPA to a consumer context will hit underrepresented students the hardest.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
Students may not be able to participate in search, a program you're likely familiar with, even it's been around for decades, filled your mailboxes back in the day, giving you opportunities you may not have otherwise heard of.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
28,000 California students currently in search and 85 colleges in search. Hispanic students in search enroll at a rate of 8.3 points higher than those not in search. Black and Hispanic students are 46 and 66, respectively, more likely to apply to college because they're getting that mail in their mailbox.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
To be clear, College Board has great respect for student privacy. After the Rules Committee denied the amendment that we were agreed upon, we have presented an amendment to SOPIPA last Tuesday. We are waiting for a response. During that time, we were created and prepared yet another amendment.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Not withstanding the three hours I mentioned. Please wrap up.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
So we would be pleased to support additional protections, but stripping away student choice and having a consumer context in an EdTech classroom privacy law is not the right approach.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Next witness. You're going to have to move the microphone a little closer.
- Emily Scott
Person
Mr. Chair and Members of the Committee, my name is Emily Scott and I am lead counsel handling privacy matters at ACT. I'm here today to oppose AB 1971 as it is currently written.
- Emily Scott
Person
In 2014, California was the first state in the nation to pass the Student Online Personal Information Protection Act, or SOPIPA, the most comprehensive student privacy legislation in the country, which was soon followed by more than 20 other states who passed similar laws.
- Emily Scott
Person
The goal of these laws was to limit what technology providers could do with data collected through services provided in the classroom.
- Emily Scott
Person
AB 1971 would extend California's SOPIPA law to a parent or student directly registering and paying for the ACT outside of school by defining that process as a K-12 school purpose, which in the current law means one that custom customarily takes place at the direction of a K-12 school in the administration of school activities, or for the use and benefit of the school.
- Emily Scott
Person
When a student or parent registers for the ACT test, that test is used for the student to apply to colleges. This purpose does not customarily take place at the direction of a school, it is not for the benefit of the school, and it is not a K-12 school purpose as SOPIPA has defined it.
- Emily Scott
Person
In addition to this expansion in scope beyond what SOPIPA ever intended, AB 1971 could also limit California students access to higher education opportunities by forcing ACT to prohibit the educational opportunity service, or EOS, which allows students to affirmatively opt-in to be recruited by colleges and universities for admission and scholarship opportunities.
- Emily Scott
Person
Colleges and universities pay a license fee to use student data for a limited time for the sole purpose of recruiting students for their programs. AB 1971 may prohibit ACT from charging this fee, which could force us to block EOS for California students. Participating in EOS significantly increases the students' opportunities.
- Emily Scott
Person
Nearly 85% of students that opt into EOS are recruited by one or more colleges. Ultimately, AB 1971 could reduce the number of California students that are recruited by colleges. California students specifically would be left behind by this bill because California colleges and universities would still be able to recruit out-of-state students using the EOS program.
- Emily Scott
Person
We appreciate your consideration of our opposition.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you very much. Others opposed to AB 1971, please approach the microphone. Seeing no one approaching the microphone, let's bring it back to Committee. Questions by Committee Members? Senator Roth and Senator Caballero.
- Richard Roth
Person
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Maybe someone could, maybe the author could address the concerns about the College Board folks have, or the schools that have sent letters to me. You know, I'm old, but I'm not so old that I don't remember the College Board.
- Richard Roth
Person
And the process that we went through, I'm sure wasn't quite like it is today. But I'm not sure that we necessarily want to interfere with that unless there's a reason. Could you address that, ma'am?
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
Absolutely. I'm old too, but I do have an 18 and a 23 year old, both of whom took the SAT and wanted that data shared with colleges. And that's absolutely not the point of this bill. And that's why I say that we have been working on amendments. I feel like we're getting to a good place.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
I'm surprised by the hard opposition because we've had so many conversations around what the goal of this bill is. And the simple goal here is not to share this data with social media companies. That's where we want to get to. It's where we've been trying to get to.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
We thought that we were there on an agreement of how to do this. And I do believe the opposition mentioned we ran into a little bit of an issue with rules in terms of getting this through in a way that we would be able to.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
And so we're still working on it and we'll continue to work on it, but it's never been the intention to stop being able to share data with universities, which is actually incredibly important. And students take these tests, right. The purpose of our K-12 education system is to help students be college and career-ready.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
So we would never want to inhibit being able to share information with the very colleges that students are taking tests to be able to go to.
- Richard Roth
Person
Sounds like it's an issue about whose process gets to be used.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
I think it's very technical, in my opinion, as an author, and this is an author-driven bill. So it's me, the expert in the room. But what I would say is that I think there's a very technical conversation in here that's taking some time longer than we would like it to take.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
But we're committed to working that out and to getting to the goal, which again, the sole goal is really to not sell this data to social media companies. And I believe the Committee just heard in a different hearing how AI is moving forward and starting to use our data. And that's a concern, tight.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
So we want to make sure that student data is going to the right place, especially when they're taking academic tests, and the right place is to those universities.
- Richard Roth
Person
Well, listen, I appreciate your commitment to get this right and to try to fix it, and I'll be supporting the bill.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
Thank you.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. Other questions, Senator? Senator Allen? No, Senator Caballero.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
Thank you very much. I understand what you're saying in terms of your intent, and if you can work out the language, I want to give you the time to do it. I'm very concerned because this is all new to me. And if it's new, well, I won't say it that way.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I tried helping a student fill out a FAFSA application once and we screwed it all up. If an attorney can't read that darn thing and get through it, then, you know, I have no business trying to help some student that was working in my office. And I'm concerned about this as well.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
There is a letter from Stanford that I received. You may have received it as well.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
And they're concerned about the privacy, the privacy of information that's in SOPIPA and the mixing of the two goals, one, which is to have a place where you can get the information or sign up for the ACT or the SAT and where parents are putting information in in order to be able to pay for the tests and whatever else is required.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
I'm very concerned about privacy, and I know you are, too. So I'm willing to give you a courtesy vote today. I'm hoping you can get the language worked out with everybody because if there is one portal, that's great, it makes it a lot easier.
- Anna Caballero
Legislator
But I just don't want to end up in a situation where students are not getting recruited because the function doesn't work for them to do it. If they've got a lot of personal data on their as well, that can be compromised. So I appreciate your work on this and look forward to seeing it in the future.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Alrighty. Thank you. Other questions or comments? Senator Allen?
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
I think I just want to associate myself. I'm glad I waited for Senator Caballero and her wise comments because I want to associate myself with them. I mean, I understand there's work to be done. My understanding is that you're working with both chairs of the education and judiciary committees.
- Benjamin Allen
Legislator
See if you can get some of these key issues with the college board and others addressed. And then pending that negotiation, there'll be a decision made as to whether the bill goes to the floor.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
I wasn't here at the beginning, but I understand there's a commitment by some Member Addis that unless it meets the concerns of both the Education Committee and this Committee, you're not going to bring it up on the floor.
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
Correct. We're continuing to work on this, absolutely.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Okay. I don't know if that's your question, Senator Allen. All right, Senator Wilk.
- Scott Wilk
Person
Because we still have 2 hours and 45 minutes, I thought.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Go ahead. Go around a couple times.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I'd like to associate my comments with Senator Caballero and Senator Allen. I voted for this last week in Education Committee. I thought we were going to be further along than we are, and it is complicated. So I'm in the same position as them.
- Scott Wilk
Person
I'm going to give you the vote today and with the confidence that you're going to be able to work it out.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right, other questions. Senator Stern?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Not to belabor this, but I am curious from the opposition, just the sneak preview of where this could be going once everything gets worked out, ideally, do you still want to be able to, this data?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Like, do we want to be able to go back to the feneral audience exemption, or is there some sort of more refined universe that would help you all feel more comfortable that it wouldn't sort of be unduly restricting students ability to consent to that?
- Henry Stern
Legislator
We all read the big, the really problematic report about student data sharing to general websites and things like that? It sounds like what you're saying is you still want to stay within the school purposes. But I just wanted to get a better sense from you all on that piece.
- Emily Scott
Person
I'll address first. So I think that the elimination of the general audience website exception is palatable to us given other amendments that we need. So in other words, if our direct-to-consumer testing is brought into k 12 school purposes and the general audience website exception is struck, it really hampers us.
- Emily Scott
Person
So I think that we would be open to that. Definitely understand the concerns there. But we also, we need to be able to leave a path right for the direct to consumer student experience to be able to be unfettered by this. So conditionally. Yes, I think we're open to that.
- Emily Scott
Person
And also definitely open to, and have suggested a targeted provision preventing the type of social media sharing that was articulated as one of the main concerns. We're definitely open to that because that's not something that we do.
- Henry Stern
Legislator
Okay. Very helpful. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Hope you work through this. I'll move the bill.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
All right. Senator Stern's moved the bill. I have several concerns. One concern is that the sharing of data with social media can lead to unintended consequences. Number one. Second question is, in terms of training AI models, is your data being used to train AI models today?
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
AI models that are being used outside your two entities.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
Sure. I can speak to both questions. I'll address the second one first. No, we are not using AI as you described yet today. Of course, as most organizations are, we're intrigued. AI is very sexy. So we're interested in what we could potentially do someday, but nothing is underway at this point.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
And to your first point, College Board has never and will never share student PII with social media. The news articles in the bill analysis are false. They were retracted afterwards, and so that was improper information. We have three times put amendments forth to the authorization where we would commit to no disclosure of student PII to social media.
- Jennifer Smith
Person
That is not an issue at all.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Got it. Okay.
- Emily Scott
Person
Same for us. No use of AI, as you described. Exploring the use of third party models for internal operations, but nothing.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
The question would be whether you're allowing other models to be trained on your data. So. All right. Got it. Okay, the bill has been moved. Would you like to close?
- Dawn Addis
Legislator
I'll respectfully ask for your aye vote.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Thank you. All right, I'm going to go very slowly now. Madam Secretary, if you would call the roll.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File, item 70 AB 1971, the motion is do pass. Umberg. Umberg, aye. Wilk. Wilk, aye. Allen. Allen, aye. Ashby. Ashby, aye. Caballero. Caballero, aye. Durazo. Durazo, aye. Laird. Laird, aye. Niello. Niello, no. Roth. Roth, aye. Stern. Stern, aye. Wahab. Nine to one.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Nine to one. I'm so pleased to see say your bill is out. That's the first bill of the day that actually has gotten out a committee, so thank you. All right, we're going to go through the roll one time. One time. Start at the beginning. Here we go. Everybody get their playbook out? The bill number, yes.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Read the bill number. Yes. No, no, we will absolutely make sure that we're really reading the bill number. So, I'm sorry. Yes, correct. All right. Okay, we're ready to roll. All right, the vote count. The vote count is now x, and then after the folks add on, so you say, okay, we'll just do it.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We'll start out the way we've done it for the last couple months, and then if you need a modification, we'll modify it. So, Madam Secretary.
- Committee Secretary
Person
On the consent calendar, [Roll Call].
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
11-0: consent calendar is adopted.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item one, AB 2889, [Roll Call].
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
Item number one, AB 2889 by Assemblymember Zbur.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call].
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
9-1: bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item two, AB 3129, [Roll Call].
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
9-2: bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item three, AB 3218, [Roll Call].
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
10-1: bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item four. AB 2319, [Roll Call].
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
10-1: bill is out.
- Committee Secretary
Person
File item five, AB 3138, [Roll Call].
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
What's the vote count?
- Committee Secretary
Person
Currently eight to zero.
- Committee Secretary
Person
[Roll Call]
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
9-2 bills out. All right. Let me thank folks before you all go. Thank you, sergeants. Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Brian, for all your work today keeping us as cool as you possibly could. Thank you to thank you to Erica. Thank you to Margaret. Thank you for your work.
- Thomas Umberg
Legislator
We've been here 12 hours, staff, starting with Ian. Ian Doherty. I see Allison there. Amanda. Thank you all. Thank you. Christian. Where's Christian? Thank you, Morgan. Thank you very much, Morgan, for all you've done. And our chief counsel, Margie Estrada. Thank you very much. Did I miss anybody? If I missed anybody, I'll be suicidal. Okay, we are adjourned until the call of chair. Thank you.
No Bills Identified